The Confederate Flag, and Charleston

[TJByrum]

I know it probably ain't much a big deal in other places, especially outside of America. But I live in South Carolina, so naturally it seems like a pretty big deal to everyone here. I just wanted to see what the intelligent folks here thought about the thing. I'm sure you've seen this spread across the rest of the south, cause other states associate this flag as well.

Now when I say Confederate flag, I mean the flag used by the Army of Northern Virginia (and other groups) during the American Civil War (this one, specifically, even though it ain't square). It was a battle flag used by commanders, but everyone in the south generally associates it with the Confederacy overall, instead of the real one - which was similar to this.

This flag is -everywhere- in SC. Shirts, windows, socks, jackets, cars, tagplates, flagpoles, decor, gravestones - everywhere; it was most notably seen on the Dukes of Hazzard's car, the General Lee. can't speak for its prevalence in other parts of the south.

From experience, this flag no longer stands for the Civil War, or the Confederacy. It is called the 'Rebel flag' now, and people associate it with the south- as in, with the region. It typically means they're proud to be from the south... from what I gather.

The big issue is that Dylan Roofe shooting that happened in Charleston, SC. This is where the Civil War 'officially' began for most, when shots were fired on Fort Sumter. Anyway, in one of his pictures, he was holding a Rebel flag. Now there's this huge controversy that's blown up over the past week. The flag once flew over our state building, but it was taken down some time ago - but it still flies over a Confederate memorial, and a lot of people want it taken down, including our governor Nikki Haley.

Fortunately... fortunately for South Caroline, there have been no riots, no looting, nothing like that. Far as I know, everyone's alright. They're protesting peacefully. I've seen pictures of opposing individuals hugging each other, so that's good.

But what do you think?

[mdk]

People everywhere are flipping out that anyone who doesn't hate the confederate flag must be a racist. I don't get it. A cloth rectangle is a really stupid way to judge someone's character. To me, 'Confederate Flag = Racist' sounds exactly the same as 'Rainbow Flag = Sinner,' and I have no patience for either sentiment. Liberal America is about as well-equipped to talk about Southern pride as Christian America is to talk about gay pride..... I think the analogy holds up.

Anyway.

If we're gonna hate people over history, we should start by tracking down everyone who's worn a Che Guevara shirt. Symbols only carry meaning when people attach it. If we could just, you know.... stop attaching the worst possible connotation to every possible symbol we don't like? That might clear a lot of things up.

[TJByrum]

Good point mdk.

They've banned putting the flag on toys and replicas of the General Lee, and Wal Mart refuses to sell them.

I can understand a little bit of where people are coming from, but that flag is flying over a memorial for Confederates. I don't see anything wrong with it.

[mdk]

Well the toys/replicas aren't strictly speaking a "BAN." It's just that the companies have decided (likely because of social pressure) to stop selling those. And that's perfectly legal, that's how the system SHOULD work. Someone's still gonna make a lot of money selling confederate flags, and it's not gonna be any of those companies. Their loss.

[TJByrum]

It's about like saying we should remove all Christian crosses from the churches because they offend Atheists.

To many people associating the Rebel flag with racism because they're ignorant. Robert E Lee, one of the greatest generals of his time, fought for the south and he freed his slaves. The Union generals (even Ulysses Grant) owned slaves before, during, and even after the Civil War. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in the south, not the north. By that logic, the American flag is racist.

[Loud Angry Dead]

Honestly, the Confederate Battle Flag is a piece of American history that we probably shouldn't do away with. Though many fringe groups have taken the flag and used it for their own purposes, that doesn't mean that the flag itself is to blame. The hate groups are going to rally behind whatever they want. Banning the flag isn't necessarily opposing them. Rather it's allowing them exclusive rights to it. Now all the mainstream people who might have had a different interpretation of the flag have to give it up to those who want to use it to commit hate crimes.

Ultimately, we're allowing a historical symbol of what was once Southern pride (with all the good and the bad connotations to it) to be tarnished and abandoned to degenerates.

[TJByrum]

Apple has removed all Civil War games from the App store. I think I read elsewhere that the United States has to remove the flag from their state flags, tagplates, bumper stickers, flagpoles, and more. Some folks in my region are discussing a potential law to pass on that will allow you to be charged for even owning the flag at all.

People are going to say it means a lot of things. But they're putting words in our mouths. The flag has come to represent the region of the US known as the Southeast, Deep South, the South, what have you. People who are proud to be from here use the flag to represent the region they're from.

Believe me, this is making a lot of waves where I live, but it's not going to get covered. Everyone's truck has a large Confederate flag waving off the back of their cab as they fly down the roads. Confederate flags are being raised on flagpoles. They're everywhere.

[TJByrum]

I want to give you guys a little more info too.

The Confederate battle flag (Rebel henceforth) use to fly over SC's state capitol building. This caused issues, so it was taken down and moved to a Confederate memorial just across the ways. But it was part of a compromise; the flag goes to the memorial, and a African-American monument was also placed at the state capitol.

Fast forward 15 years, now the flag will be taken down, but the African American monument which was put up as the other half of a compromise will remain up. How is this a compromise anymore if only one side wins? There are folks now who, if the flag comes down, they'll start a petition to remove the African American monument.

Some people want to demolish/close all historical plantations in the area, remove the rebel flag from Confederate/Non-Confederate gravestones, and overall just erase the Confederacy from the south altogether.

[XecutionerRex]

Some people want to demolish/close all historical plantations in the area, remove the rebel flag from Confederate/Non-Confederate gravestones, and overall just erase the Confederacy from the south altogether.

@TJByrum

That's a terrible idea. The Confederate flag, as has been pointed out many times, stands for more than just slavery and racism. The Confederacy, and it's respective flag, are important aspects of American history. Why should we clear out all historical plantations? Might as well take it out the textbooks and turn the Native American tribal grounds into real estate. No, we shouldn't because they represent what the country has been through; both the good and the bad. And if you wipe our perception of history clean of tragedies like slavery then we don't know history. And those who don't know history are bound to repeat it or otherwise manage to screw everything up.

Most people can't see past the slavery and racism that the South has been known for for the past two centuries, and thus when they see the Confederate flag they scream "Neo-Nazis!" "Racists!" "Inbred redneck shits!" And granted while some people may use it for ill intent that's not the flag's fault, as was stated by somebody earlier.

The flag symbolizes the South in all it's splendor. It's a great place -- it's the soul of America. Without Dixie this country would honestly have next to no set culture. Without the South and it's great dishes, accents, and music there wouldn't be anything too interesting about America, at least not on the East Coast.

The first colony was founded in Jamestown, Virginia, 1607. The South is the cradle of the American nation.

[Keyguyperson]

I think we should take it down and fly, you know, the actual confederate flag.

Flying a battle flag from Virginia over a memorial for Confederate soldiers in general is like flying only a British flag over a memorial for all the Allied soldiers that died in WWII.

[Darcs]

I know it probably ain't much a big deal in other places, especially outside of America. But I live in South Carolina, so naturally it seems like a pretty big deal to everyone here. I just wanted to see what the intelligent folks here thought about the thing. I'm sure you've seen this spread across the rest of the south, cause other states associate this flag as well.

Now when I say Confederate flag, I mean the flag used by the Army of Northern Virginia (and other groups) during the American Civil War (this one, specifically, even though it ain't square). It was a battle flag used by commanders, but everyone in the south generally associates it with the Confederacy overall, instead of the real one - which was similar to this.

@TJByrum

I know you don't mean harm by this, but that all really just semantics. Which flag is 'real' or not.

Would you believe me if I said both of those flags are the Confederate Flag? Both real, both wholly associated with the Confederacy and the men who fought to keep the right to own human beings?

The Battleflag of North Virginia was the flag that was flown during the majority of the battles for the Civil War, because people were confused who was who when the Flag of the CSA was used during battles, since from a distance it was very similar to the Union flag. The Battleflag of North Virginia was the one the northerners, the buffalo soldiers, the slaves, the indians saw, and associated with the south. To me, that makes it just as real as any flag some guys in an office say is the 'real' Confederate flag.

Again, that's just linguistics, but I see the flag men carried and associated with the Confederacy as real as the Stars and Bars.

can't speak for its prevalence in other parts of the south.

@TJByrum

Atlanta here, so not """*~*"REAL"*~*""" south. We don't really see it here, you kind of get scoffed at if you make Confederate pride super obvious. Like, I'm all for states rights, but maybe don't wear the flag of the people who LITERALLY fought to keep my ancestors in chains.

But what do you think?

@TJByrum

I don't think it's possible to remove the negative associations from a flag. No matter how many people see it as the 'Southern Pride' Rebel there will still be people who positively associate it with the Rhodesian flag, or Apartheid South Africa, like the shooter.

---

People everywhere are flipping out that anyone who doesn't hate the confederate flag must be a racist. I don't get it. A cloth rectangle is a really stupid way to judge someone's character. To me, 'Confederate Flag = Racist' sounds exactly the same as 'Rainbow Flag = Sinner,' and I have no patience for either sentiment. Liberal America is about as well-equipped to talk about Southern pride as Christian America is to talk about gay pride..... I think the analogy holds up.

Anyway.

If we're gonna hate people over history, we should start by tracking down everyone who's worn a Che Guevara shirt. Symbols only carry meaning when people attach it. If we could just, you know.... stop attaching the worst possible connotation to every possible symbol we don't like? That might clear a lot of things up.

@mdk

False equivalency brah.

Gay people never succeed from the Union so they could sodomize people without their permission.

I agree with the El Che sentiment tho

---

It's about like saying we should remove all Christian crosses from the churches because they offend Atheists.

@TJByrum

It's really not.

To many people associating the Rebel flag with racism because they're ignorant.

@TJByrum

No we associate it with racism because my great great grandmother literally remembers her father being dragged out of their home by Klansmen and the sons of Confederates and hung from a tree

Because they were then denied the vote by southerners who only freed them so they could throw down their lives for their masters

Robert E Lee, one of the greatest generals of his time, fought for the south and he freed his slaves.

@TJByrum

What a paragon of humanity?

The Union generals (even Ulysses Grant) owned slaves before, during, and even after the Civil War. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in the south, not the north. By that logic, the American flag is racist.

@TJByrum

It is, homie.

---

I think we should take it down and fly, you know, the actual confederate flag.

Flying a battle flag from Virginia over a memorial for Confederate soldiers in general is like flying only a British flag over a memorial for all the Allied soldiers that died in WWII.

@Keyguyperson

Wait are you saying that flying the CSA battleflag over a peaceful memorial gives the wrong impression?

Nah that's silly, fam.

[mdk]

False equivalency brah.

Gay people never succeed from the Union so they could sodomize people without their permission.

I agree with the El Che sentiment tho

@Darcs

And Jefferson Davis, to my knowledge, never listened to the Village People while drinking an appletini. The comparison is valid because both sides oppose the symbol in question and readily pass judgment on those who use it. It's a good comparison. I think. I mean there's plenty of people (not me) who think that gay copulation is just as wrong as slavery. They shouldn't be the ones who decide what Gay Pride means, and San Francisco shouldn't get to decide what the rebel flag means.

[Darcs]

@mdk But you're essentially comparing something people are born with, being gay-- to a cause people created, in part because they wanted to keep people in chains.

It's like, there's a difference between not passing judgement on a symbol representing a group of people who were historically oppressed, and a symbol representing many things, including a group of people who were historically oppressors.

I'll never agree with it, I'm perfectly fine admitting that. I know that the Confederate Flag means more than slavery, but it also means slavery. Why you'd want to fly that around, like it only means pride for all us down here in the south, I will never understand, but I mean, fine whatever. I see it as a symbol of hate, but you do you, boo boo.

What I don't see as fine, is comparing that symbol of pride packaged with slavery to the Gay rights flag, is all I'm saying.

[mdk]

@Darcs

I'm only really comparing the reactions they inspire, as an effort to demonstrate what hating a symbol looks like from the other side. You don't have to agree with any part of what 'they' think, whoever 'they' happen to be -- but understand what the reaction looks like.

Anyway my northerner understanding is that the flag isn't meant to represent oppression -- quite the opposite. They fought us because they thought WE were oppressing THEM -- their soldiers were no less brave than ours, their sacrifices on the battlefield no less complete. Sure, southern society was sick with slavery, but so was basically every other nation on the planet -- they were 'born with' slavery as a condition. I mean don't get me wrong, fuck that noise, but that doesn't make every single person from 1830 and back into a monster. Shit, I eat cows, I'm sure in 500 years someone will have choice words to say about that.

edit: relevant

[Unfortunately]

As with most everyone here, I've come to agree that this symbol of commemoration and heritage is something not to be simply put down for the sake of sensitivity.

At least the Charleston people are calmer and more peaceful than the dindus in those... you know, cops.

[TJByrum]

@Darcs: I was trying to imply that the CSA officially used another national flag, not the battle flag.

Anyway, despite the flag being used by hate groups, being seen as hateful, racist, and other things, that's not what it means to the common southerner. To us, it simply represents the region known as the southeast US. A region that, supposedly, promotes a rural, small-town, local community and lifestyle. People like that, people are proud of that, and we'll use the rebel flag to show that pride.

I can't help that the KKK uses it for racist purposes. To me, it demeans the south and the flag that the KKK uses it. I hate them for that.

But when people try to restrict us on how we represent ourselves, that is what everyone gets mad about. Another comparison is flying a flag at my house if I lived in Japan. I'm sorry about what happened during WWII, I didn't support any of that - hell, I wasn't even around. But I'm proud to be from America, and that's how I am going to represent it.

If there's going to be protests and riots, they should be aimed at the KKK, Black Panthers, hate groups, and street gangs. Not a group of innocents proud to be from a specific region.

[Vilageidiotx]

I think that the crazy stuff, like apple banning civil war games or people talking about demolishing sites related to confederate history, is embarrassing and asinine. Those moves should definitely be mocked loudly by everybody involved. Wal-Mart and the like banning the flag seems like an awkward attempt at advertising (if you are so concerned about human rights, look to your employees or to the sweatshop workers who make your goods).

But when we are talking about the flag itself, we should acknowledge that, no matter what the flag symbolizes for others, it has taken on complicated connotations. The KKK took it as they symbol, that can't be ignored, and it has been used by racist groups long enough to have earned that connotation. I understand that it is a strangely divided symbol, and that for some people it is a sign of rebellion or southern pride, but if you are going to use it you have to accept that it is going to be looked at differently by different people.

I think that southern state governments flying confederate symbols is generally inappropriate (its celebrating the time they caused hundreds of thousands to die because a few wealthy people wanted to run an economy based on slave labor.), but if people can feel comfortable using the stars and bars or the bonnie blue in place of the battle-flag, that would be a reasonable compromise. To fly a contentious flag and tell people that your interpretation is the only correct interpretation? That's poor behavior from a state government.

[RIGHTEOUSwench]

It is not poor behavior from a state government. The people are having their voices heard by the government and they are in majority-lead support of flying the flag. The government's decisions do well to represent the people they serve. The government itself ought follow what the people desire and not what the government wants the people to desire.

The government should be the last thing to change; the people should direct that change, lest this country ceases to retain the American style of freedom.

[Vilageidiotx]

I don't think the South Carolina government operates on plebiscites.

I mean, that entire thought process sounds warm and fuzzy, but it is meaningless. I don't think American Style Freedom™ is synonymous with mob rule... and that is because it isn't. It's much more difficult to gauge the actions and feelings of an entire mob than it is to gauge the actions and feelings of the representatives of that mob.

But if you want to turn this from "The Government of South Carolina behaving poorly" to "The people of South Carolina are behaving poorly.", than whatever floats your boat I guess. If it makes you feel like you got tons of American Style Freedom™ everywhere, go for it.

[Darcs]

@TJByrum
That's the thing though-- I can't speak for a lot of southerners-- but I know for me, and the few people who agree with me, it's more that it's representative of an era of oppression and suffering than it is the as a whole South. But I guess at this point we're just getting into personal preferences.

Some Southerns like it, some don't, most are probably on the fence or more likely just don't care.

Kek, I mean it's not like there's much to be proud of if you're from here-- I MEAN UNLESS YOU'RE FROM ATLANTA BANKHEAD REPRESENT

(Also Huey Newton-era Black Panthers were based.)