Help with Advanced Roleplaying

[Xylin]

EDIT:

I'd like to thank @Ellri and @Dinh AaronMk for their amazing help on my request!

I'll be lurking around both roleplays since I don't think I'm quite there to join an Advanced roleplay but I'll be using them as references so I can pick up on my writing.

Thank you both again and I hope to be joining you guys soon some time in the future if it's not those roleplays in particular!

[Ellri]

We don't have a 1x1 or a small group RP, but if you want to learn advanced and more Star Wars @Xylin, we can invite you to our large-group Star Wars RP, Coruscant Sacked: Aftermath. Its been going on for a while now (7 months + being a reboot from oldGuild), but it is designed to make it easy for people to join in at any time.

We make it a rule for ourselves to welcome any who seek to improve their knowledge of lore and improve their skills in writing. Its not a fast-paced RP, and we also have a "rule" of sorts concerning RL - It always comes first. So long as someone gives notice, we won't mind an absence of virtually any duration due to RL. The pace is fairly slow, so you need not worry about having limited time.

[Dinh AaronMk]

Without doing the sort of promotion as above, probably the best I can do is dish out the following:

- Learn yourself some metaphor and simile. The point to fantastic writing isn't often the clarity but the way it plays with the imagination. Dabbling in indirect means to describe people or objects in the narrative in a metaphorical way or in simile comparisons can force the reader to approach the writing on their terms. If you describe the sunset as being like burning raspberries then you challenge the reader to try and imagine what that is, as opposed to laying it out for them cut and dry with "the sunset was red and orange". It doesn't engage the reader.

This can actually be pretty difficult and I still struggle with composing appropriate metaphors. Though this is a practice that can be improved with voracious reading. If you read enough, then you can encounter enough metaphorical phrases or genres to diversify your library or genre.

- Said is dead. While the phrase 'X said/said x' is a easy go-to phrase it doesn't really carry emphasis. So I would advise to study on other emotional expressions to write or their synonyms. Repetitious use of said - as easy as it can be - is pretty boring.

- Learn the tropes and the cliches. Whether to avoid one or pull-off a well exercised inclusion of the other. So if you dare TvTropes will probably be the graveyard of your past-time.

- General learning. While not directly relevant to your writing as a dressed up thing it will help out with the background bits. General knowledge of a political system or the processes behind one or a nation's bureaucracy will help out with political drama and intrigue plots. A general knowledge of engineering processes can help frame or establish a framework in something in a believable, well-enough explained matter that you establish immersion by softening a critical reader or participant's rampant questioning of what the hell is going on.

You're also probably going to be researching or asking how it feels for a man to die or what happens as he does. So go all out and research how to make nuclear bombs why don't ya? The process is freely available on Wikipedia. Even if it seems unnecessary a lot of research may go into any sort of writing (perhaps less-so role-playing), even going so far as going into the field.

Otherwise, I'll dish the rest out in video links and let you chew it all over.




I think this one is very important because more often than not I don't know if anyone realizes the sort of work that goes into - or should go into - world building. Even if this video is a basic overview that probably just barely touches the surface.



So with all that written, I suppose I will extend an invitation: if you need an arena in an already larger world to exercise then there's Precipice of War. At six years old though, it's got a very heavy lore but we're patient and we'll help you along. And despite having that daunting title of a "Nation" RP, that only translates here into "several hundred-thousand heads worth of characters at least pushing any number of stories you want within the confines of the present world".

[Vilageidiotx]

General learning. While not directly relevant to your writing as a dressed up thing it will help out with the background bits. General knowledge of a political system or the processes behind one or a nation's bureaucracy will help out with political drama and intrigue plots. A general knowledge of engineering processes can help frame or establish a framework in something in a believable, well-enough explained matter that you establish immersion by softening a critical reader or participant's rampant questioning of what the hell is going on.

Dinh AaronMk

This is definitely one of the biggest keys. If you are going to get serious about writing, try to become a large scale consumer of knowledge. Everything you do not know is a weakness, and everything you learn is a self-improvement. When you read, try to read like you are an English teacher, finding what you like and what you don't like about everything from the way the subject matter is presented to the way the words are arranged. If somebody seems like they would like to gush about some topic they know, ask questions and seriously think about what they say. Doesn't matter if it is astrophysics or the finer point of bagging groceries.

And don't avoid learning about shit you already know. Different perspectives are what give you a three dimensional idea of how the subject works.

[Dinh AaronMk]

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>

This is definitely one of the biggest keys. If you are going to get serious about writing, try to become a large scale consumer of knowledge. Everything you do not know is a weakness, and everything you learn is a self-improvement. When you read, try to read like you are an English teacher, finding what you like and what you don't like about everything from the way the subject matter is presented to the way the words are arranged. If somebody seems like they would like to gush about some topic they know, ask questions and seriously think about what they say. Doesn't matter if it is astrophysics or the finer point of bagging groceries.

And don't avoid learning about shit you already know. Different perspectives are what give you a three dimensional idea of how the subject works.

@Vilageidiotx

This reminds me of a post that showed up on my Facebook of all places. I'll share it here for shits it giggles (seeing as how I had to scan through the mountain of unrefined bullshit that is everything else).

50 years ago, I started a long period of absolutely voracious reading that lasted about 12 or 15 years, from preteen to young man. I was unfettered by social media and all the information it would have given me about what to read or not read. I was in a Catholic school system that did not particularly value reading as a past time, so I was free of its constraints, in large measure. I was lucky to be in a high school that had teachers who despised each others politics, ethics and sexual norms, thereby presenting me with a wealth of conflicting values, ideas and sources.
Hence, I read without a value meter, without a guide. I read Ursula K. Le Guin and George Lincoln Rockwell, Ferlinghetti and Poe, JFK’s profiles, Plato’s republic and Barry Goldwater’s conscience, all given juvenile equal weight. I read about catchers in rye and women on wuthering heights. I absorbed the bizarre lessons of individuality of Howard Roark and Alan Watts. I read the Douay-Rheims Bible end to end without trying to make sense of it one summer when I was way too young to separate the poetic from the puerile-erotic, or the fact from fiction. I read about the joy of sex before I’d had any, and the history of Vietnam before I was threatened with a visit. I read Asimov and Huxley, the former as inevitable reality, the latter as fiction. I could not read enough Ginsberg, even though I failed to understand until many years later. I read pornography as poetry, and poetry as an instruction manual.
I read everything I could, without labels, warnings, peer guidance or teacher demands. I was handed a book by someone I trusted and I read it. I was handed a book by someone I suspected, and I read it. It was a huge jumble of conflicting ideas, some that I held quite comfortably, side by side no matter how incongruous they were.
I do not know if this kind of pre-intellectual, non-judgmental discovery is still encouraged or allowed. I was fortunate that either no one gave a shit and noticed what I was up to, or perhaps they noticed and just let me be. I was lucky to live in a bubble for a precious decade or so.

[Jig]

My advice: don't stress. You've seen here that some Advanced GM's are more than willing to take somebody uncertain under their wing and give them some guidance, which is fantastic- though, I have to say, there's something to be said for just throwing yourself in and practising and there's really no substitute for the latter.

While there are some tips and tricks, which others have given you, to make your writing look and feel probably more interesting, my personal #1 rule is to avoid using the same word in a paragraph if I can help it. It's something an English teacher told me when I was seven, and I'm still using it. I don't know exactly what it is, but it does seem to make text more interesting.

That said, there's no rule without exception. My 'don't repeat' rule is instantly binned if there is value to be gained from repeating. Think about the tone you want your writing to carry and work toward it. If you want your work to be, for example, 'exciting', you can literally google that shit - you'll get advice to the effect of short sentences to simulate speed - but, then, you might find that a long sentence once in a while will simulate breathlessness.

- Said is dead. While the phrase 'X said/said x' is a easy go-to phrase it doesn't really carry emphasis. So I would advise to study on other emotional expressions to write or their synonyms. Repetitious use of said - as easy as it can be - is pretty boring.

@Dinh AaronMk

"I don't like to contradict, but I beg to differ. For me," Said Jig, who was outlining an example while far too drunk to do it properly, "a 'non-said'-word should only be used to emphasise one instance of direct speech every once in a while. Otherwise, I simply use 'said' if I feel that the speech needs a 'said'-word for flow but there's nothing really to express, or simply, you know," Jig's fingers drummed on the table, "Say literally anything else instead just to break up the speech."

- Learn the tropes and the cliches. Whether to avoid one or pull-off a well exercised inclusion of the other. So if you dare TvTropes will probably be the graveyard of your past-time.

I really do recommend TV Tropes. I've spent a few years wiki-walking TV-Tropes, and now I see tropes everywhere. It doesn't push things into pigeon-holes but, rather, gives you a broad outline to work from and see how everything fits in. The interest, as far as the reader is concerned, comes from your own individual variation and flair which is something you'll develop over time.

---

Apart from anything else, I'd say that many GM's in Advanced would rather take a 'weaker' player over a 'stronger' player if that 'weaker' play shows more interest, commitment, and a more cooperative attitude. Writing like Keates does not an Advanced Player alone make .

[Vilageidiotx]

The said rule is two-folded. On one hand, a conversation that looks like...

"I like peanut butter." said Jim.

"That is good. I like jelly to be in my mouth." said Lisa.

"I like a lot of things in my mouth too." said Jim

"We should be friends for a while. And maybe we can eat peanut butter." said Lisa

"And Jelly." said Jim

...gets really tedious really fast. On the other hand, if it looks like...

"I like peanut butter." enunciated Jim.

"That is good. I like jelly to be in my mouth." Lisa warbled.

"I like a lot of things in my mouth too." sighed Jim.

"We should be friends for a while. And maybe we can eat peanut butter." roared Lisa.

"And Jelly." added Jim.

...it's still tedious. It is good to practice not overusing words, said included, but said does have its place. If somebody says something in a normal way, or in a way that isn't worth drawing attention to, and you still need to specify who is speaking, then said has its place. What you want to do is mix up sentence structure so that you don't fall into a monotonous pattern. Also, it is a good idea to drop the speaker indicator when you can. And, of course, it's always good to be descriptive, and a good descriptive dialogue indicators can set the tone for the rest of the conversation so that you no longer need them.

So, for me, a good dialogue looks like

"I like peanut butter." said Jim.

Lisa's eyes lit up and, like a child, she pointed wildly at her open jaw. "That is good. I like jelly to be in my mouth."

"I like a lot of things in my mouth too."

"We should be friends for a while. And maybe we can eat peanut butter."

"And Jelly." Jim added, giving Lisa a hearty thumbs up.

[NuttsnBolts]

@Vilageidiotx I find dialogue tricky sometimes and what you mentioned does really help. Its one of those aspects that can often change a pace of a story if there's too much padding.

Something I get a bit stuck on is how to write proper punctuation. For instance I only learnt recently when to properly use the "semicolon;" but I still see different ways for writing and uses of commas and such.

Eg:
"Hello there," said Jim.
Vs
"Hello there." said Jim.

I know some of it is trivial, but using punctuation correctly can improve your post quality by opening up how to write in different ways.

[Mirandae]

Read some critically acclaimed books. I'm currently reading "All the Light We Cannot See" by Anthony Doerr. He won the Pulitzer this year. Also, look into reading something like "The Elements of Style" by William Strunk. It has all the basics that all writers should know. Beware of the perceived 'advanceness' of the advanced section. Most of the post there are littered with pointless detail and the wrong usage of synonyms.

[Ellri]

Or just read in general. The more you read, whether it be critically acclaimed or just plain regular good books doesn't matter - The more you read, the more language sneaks into your head.

We've also found that repetition of any sort, when not used to make a special point, is impractical, be it framing dialogue, at the start or end of sentences, specific words, etc.

[AuntFlavia]

For the argument about 'said', I'd like to share an excerpt from a How Not to Write a Novel by Howard Middlemark and Sandra Newman:

---

Published authors use the word 'said' almost exclusively when they wish to indicate that a particular character is saying something. 'Said' is a convention so firmly established that readers for the most part do not even see it. This helps to make the dialogue realistic by keeping its structure invisible.

Many unpublished authors, however, become uncomfortable with the repetition of the word 'said' and try to improve the technology of dialogue by substituting any verb that has ever been associated with speech or language.

A particularly egregious version of this occurs when an author conflates a stage direction with the desire to avoid the word 'said' and instead writing, "You and what army," he said, thrusting out his jaw or he asked, quirking a brow, produces something like "Hello," he thrusted or "Are you going to finish that?" he quirked.

The only thing any of this does, though, is draw attention to the unconventional verb, which reminds the reader that there is an author, who is struggling mightily to avoid the word 'said'.

There are of course exceptions: 'asked' is used for questions, 'shouted' is used for a character who is doing so, and there will occasionally be a goof reason to use a word other than 'said' for plain speech. But spicing things up with 'importuned', 'vociferated' or 'clamored' will sabotage any attempt to make conversation sound real.

---

It is good to practice not overusing words, said included, but said does have its place. If somebody says something in a normal way, or in a way that isn't worth drawing attention to, and you still need to specify who is speaking, then said has its place. What you want to do is mix up sentence structure so that you don't fall into a monotonous pattern. Also, it is a good idea to drop the speaker indicator when you can. And, of course, it's always good to be descriptive, and a good descriptive dialogue indicators can set the tone for the rest of the conversation so that you no longer need them.

@Vilageidiotx

As someone who loves writing and slaving over dialogue, I also agree with this.