Avatar of Ashgan
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    1. Ashgan 11 yrs ago

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Not quite sure yet. Would depend a bit on what your dudes are like I think. One of the big things about my faction is that they care a huge lot about the purity of blood, both in an ethnical sense as well as noble lineages. If your faction can somehow impress them with high borne individuals, chances are they would be open to peaceful contacts, but if they only see mixed trash, probably less inclined. Last night I wrote some (admittedly not very well refined) piece of flavor fluff to get a feel for my faction. I'll just put it in a hider here, and you can give it a look-over to get a rough idea of what I'm gunning for here.

That's true. The distance between the two seas is not insignificant though, I imagine their domains are well separated. Maybe some feuds over influence on the eastern coast of Nagash.

Speaking of cardinal directions: Your description of the Justinian empire states it lies *east* of Nagash, but on the map it's clearly west. Or at least it's to the left. Does the compass point towards the bottom, or is it a slip-up?
Yo Flagg. This seems somewhat familiar. Where only have I... Oh, right! I haven't forgotten buddy. What happened to Darkness Visible? I was really, really sad when that went nowhere. Had high hopes for my character then, really satisfied with the result. :/

Anyway, that's not truly relevant to this thread. Couldn't help myself. I have a tentative interest in NRPs every now and again, and I do like me that dark fantasy, so I suppose I'll be keeping an eye on this. You'll understand if I am reluctant to speak of a rock-solid commitment at this point though. But I'm staying tuned, will see if I can come up with something fun or not.
We're in agreement then ;)
Yo Polybius! I remember you from that one thread where I never realized there was eventually an OOC. Doesn't matter though, this interests me more, really. xD Glad I caught it.

@ClocktowerEchos
I think I understand your point. I would still agree with Polybius's statement however on the basis that characters (individuals) are inherently different to nations. That's not to say that they have to be dry, clinical and emotionless. They're just made up of different components that set them apart. If a nation had to be equated to a character, I'd say it would have to be a character with a multiple personality disorder. As I see it, no nation is ever a singular will, a singular personality. Not unless it is, say, a hive mind. Nations are typically a tug of war between competing (and sometimes opposing) ideologies and aspirations. Characters can have conflicting emotions and thoughts, true, but I think it's different to a country that's just about ready to split under, let's say a religious schism or, to use a more contemporary example, the election of a particularly controversial leader. This becomes even more relevant in the case that a country does, in fact, split up. Character's can't do that, but countries can split, merge and morph.

This would also be my first contribution to Polybius's question for concepts he might have missed. If you're aiming for realism, dynamism and drama (that's what we want, right?), I think it's pretty important to represent more than just a single facet of a nation, even if it might be the dominant one. That's also, probably, one of the primary reasons why, as Polybius already said, nations are a bit more complex than characters. They're a large, heterogenous group of characters, or groups of characters, each with their own personal distinctions and each interacting with the others on various obvious and less obvious levels. Simulating all of this to the extreme is ridiculous of course, but I want to make a point that it should be acknowledged in a good nation sheet.

Other random points I can come up with while reading the OP:
Culture - How influential your nations culture is on other nations. For instance, American culture (especially media and movies) influences even nations that are at odds with the USA.
Polybius

If this point is strictly about projected power, you could probably widen the scope and have it be a metric for hard and soft power - two expressions used to measure a country's realistic, military pressure (hard power) as well as its cultural dominance (soft power). Economic pressure (wealth, control of stock markets, owning important trade hubs, etc.) kind of falls in between the two. It's gentler than bullying somebody with tanks, but by putting embargos, sanctions or simply imposing unreasonable taxes on imported goods, a country still has relatively hard methods for disempowering their competitor nations.

On a related note, though this might be stretching the complexity - I think this "value" shouldn't exist in a vacuum. America's culture isn't a projected value that we all take in the face (though it kind of looks like it). In reality, both hard and soft power are a sliding scale of at least two projected powers trying to push against one another. The projected (I'm overusing this word, help me) impact of America's culture can only even really be measured by comparing it to that of Europe, Asia etc. They're winning the tug of war on a lot of fronts. So to represent this on, say, a map, I would draw a web of lines connecting every country to every other country, and then have that line be filled to a representative percentage with each of the two countries' colors. Even that is a bit simple though because none of these competitions exist in a vacuum either, nor are they strictly mutually exclusive... Eh, let's leave it at that. :'D

Economy - How strong and stable your economic institutions are.
Polybius

Should probably not just mention strength, but also origin. It matters if your nation is rich because it's a tax haven for foreign companies, or if it's just really good at exporting primary materials, cheap mass produced goods, or high tech ware. Or any other reason!

Production - How fast you can build units and structures.
Polybius

Maybe it's relevant if you actually produce all the goods needed for your production line yourself, or if you depend on someone else for part of the chain. Especially in a more complex world (particularly as we move into the contemporary or sci-fi epochs) it becomes increasingly unlikely that any one country is completely self sufficient, unless it is absolutely massive or wallows in below-average quality of life. That said, if your nation starts encompassing entire planets and solar systems, your autonomy becomes a little more plausible again due to the sheer mass of your people and exploitable resources. The only scarcity you might face is technological know-how, culture, maybe money - soft things.

Infrastructure - The physical and organizational institutions of your nation. Roads, bridges, walls, but also emergency services, clergy etc.
Technology - How technologically advanced your nation is.
Polybius

I feel like both of these are a bit vague for the time being. They're vast subjects that really ought to be defined in greater specific details. You're probably aware though and summarized it for brevity's sake, so I'll just mention it off hand.

Militarism - Not to be confused with actual military strength. How willing your nation is to go to war and how it conducts itself. A better name might be "Aggression".
Polybius

In contrast, this is a relatively specific metric. Feels like you could, in theory, stick it under "culture" as it is part of what defines your national identity (or the prevailing national identity - in case we have multiple ones going on. Could easily have a extremist pacifist minority in an otherwise militaristic country).

Stability - Not sure about this one. Measures how likely your nation is to be thrown into anarchy or social collapse.
Polybius

A country's stability, as I see it, depends on two things: Quality of life, and ethics divergence. To clarify, you compare the current state of both of these with their expected, or desired states. The larger the divide is, the more unhappy the civilization will generally be and, depending on their tolerance and toppling point, they'll cross the threshold into revolt eventually.

Quality of life measures just that; personal privileges, luxuries, safety and comfort. Bread and games for the peasantry!
Ethics is a bit more nebulous; it describes how much in harmony the prevailing ethics of the population are not only with themselves (different groups, again) but also with the government. If a country that's been a liberal, capitalistic society for decades, maybe centuries suddenly finds itself under the yoke of a hugely socialistic ruler that sees fit to limit the individual's freedoms to enforce his ideals, you can bet those people aren't going to be thrilled.

As opposed to CTE's point, it is very heavily focused on the leader. (...)
JaceBeleren

It's a fair approach. Since we usually write (N)RPs to write fascinating stories, invoke emotion and drama, focusing on characters makes sense either way. Since this is a thread about making a system and appropriate game mechanics, though, I'd say it's very optional. I think a system where the macro game (country scale, or wider) is governed by rules, while the micro game (character, personal scale) is free-form prose is just fine. Since we're on a forum where we write stories first and play games second, I imagine that going lighter on rules is generally preferrable, so if we can cut them out somewhere without compromising the project, it's probably worth doing.

That's my personal bias anyway; I don't think I'd mind doing some dice rolling to determine my losses in a military campaign, but I would feel very iffy about doing the same to determine the success my lordling has in courting that princess.

---

I've written a reasonable amount already, so I'll stop here and give you folks a chance to digest and argue some of my points. I'll try and bring some additional concepts in next time though. In particular, I think wars ought to be something that need stricter defining in terms of rules, as they are usually something controversial and in need of moderation. They're also nice and juicy things with lots of complexity where we can cram metrics in. Wars are about more than people hitting or shooting each other, after all. They're about resources being pooled (and transported!) from both sides, about transit speeds, about morale (of the front, and of the homefront!), about politics, about war crimes. And of course about the more pedestrian and expected comparisons like tech disparity and troop counts. Should be fun to discuss sometime when we have a grasp on what a nation makes.

Edit:
The Land Tax would be how much you get from each amount of land wether that be in tiles/hex/km2 or what not, basically a national tax. The Land Upkeep would be how much you have to pay for the land in terms of infrastructure and what have, probably be like... 50% of the the Land Tax (just using 50% as an easy example number).
ClocktowerEchos

If the Land Tax and Land Upkeep are unseparably linked to the same variable (owned land tiles/whatever), and if Tax is always superior to Upkeep, then it would probably make sense to get rid of Upkeep in the table and just calculate it into Tax. In your example, you could just list Tax at half its value, and have no Upkeep in the right table. Essentially the same thing, but you get rid of one variable, simplifying the table and maths involved. Not a huge thing, but a slight optimization.
Valid to keep them separate, though, if Upkeep is something that can change frequently.
Nothing wrong with it Jack, don't sweat it. Wouldn't have realized anything was amiss if you didn't say so. But yo, get some sleep guy. ^^
“They’re not,” Jillian assured, “My family makes a point not being political. Wouldn’t make sense to antagonize part of our clientele and all.” Then she scoffed: “Cursed items. That’s exactly the kind of rumor that could ruin a business in Zerul. So long as they don’t hurt anyone… Still, they could be forced to go elsewhere if their reputation is harmed too much. Maybe Relimon or Wenal.” It’s not fair they should suffer any consequences at all. It wasn’t about them, never was. It all just made her hate Zerulic culture and law even more. Worse, she figured that, no matter what would or wouldn’t happen to her family, she was almost guaranteed not to see them again. And if she did, it would be anything but pleasant. Not unless she could prove to them that it had been worth it. That she hadn’t meaninglessly destroyed a life given to her on a silver platter for nothing. That she had burned the old to make something better. Prove them wrong, or die in a ditch. There was no in-between anymore for the young witch, and her desire to live was as fierce as Gerald’s even without his wasting affliction.

She realized that she had been quiet after that for a handful of awkward seconds and startled. Looking to keep the conversation going and break the silence, she reiterated on a previous point of his. “Materials, huh?” She stretched out her legs, one folded over the other, towards the fire. The pale-skinned things were rather spindly, unaccustomed to exertion. The last few days of journeying had probably been the most taxing experience they had ever been subjected to.

“I thought necromancy was more about the control of energy than the fabled desecrating of dead bodies. Or is it intertwined? Personally, I find reanimation distasteful.”

It wasn’t, strictly, that she lacked the bravery to face – or even create – undead minions, though they certainly were a disturbing sight that she was not (yet) accustomed to. Simply, the prospect held no appeal to her. Controlling lifeless, mindless dolls seemed so boring and predictable. The witch in her recoiled at the idea of a minion that simply executed. What she desired, though she did not know this, was a minion that had a will of its own. One that would act in revolt, question its master. One that could be bullied and forced into submission. Something that would give the magician the tremendous satisfaction of having conquered a creature and having made it their own. Not control, but dominance.

It was the siren’s song that lured Jillian into the depths of black magic, a false pretense of being able to master the untameable.
If it was Remdal who's behind it and if, god forbid, somehow Jill's family got hurt in the process then Gerald is not the only one with an agenda of revenge on the man. Coul be fun in the future :3

Even if not, his stance on the darker magics makes him a direct opponent to what Jill wants. If, for instance, her efforts in defeating the Withering gave her some influence in the duchies, she would almost certainly leverage it to try and convince people that they're not as bad as they are made out to be. I can't imagine that Dennis would just idly watch that happen.
“You don’t say,” she snorted amusedly, shaking her head. “If your friends had told me I would be going through this I might not have set foot in that forest. But maybe that would have been a mistake.” Because we’ll make it, Gerald. We’ll actually change something in this sorry world and they’ll all eat their words about witches, necromancers and the rest. And maybe, just maybe… it was even going to be fun.

“And I still do want you to show me sometime. I can teach you some of my knowledge too if you want. Some other time, when we’re less busy.” Bet I can teach you some non-magical things too. She flashed a brief but mischievous grin at him before thoughts of her family washed it away.

“My family? They’re not involved. They don’t know any magic. Sister runs the shop now, her husband does the smithing. Mother helps take care of the children. They’re fine.” Right? A cold shiver ran down Jillian’s spine when she realized that, in fact, she did not know for sure. They’d have no reason to harm them. Maybe ask some questions about me, nothing more. Reina’s mercy…

“They wouldn’t do anything, right?” She could not help herself but ask for his opinion on the matter. Her quivering voice betrayed uncertainty and worry. Given the extreme measures taken against the Voice, it suddenly seemed not inconceivable that all might not be well.
Phew, thank god for Dennis Remdal! Turns out I didn't intrpret Zerulic customs and law quite correctly, and forgot about prison wards, but here we have a corrupt nobleman to turn all of it into some kind of ploy and turn my blunder into a stroke of genius. Thanks Jack :D

(Sorry for doublepost; figured it was too easy to miss as an edit)
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