Darth

Arena Chat Thread

@Starfall

Not really. See: the tool analogy. You don't use the wrench because you like it, nor do you use the wrench in place of a hammer. You use the wrench because it's the tool you need at the time. If you think you can hammer in a nail by stabbing it with a screwdriver, more power to you, all I'm saying is that the hammer might be more appropriate. In the sandwich context -- I'm not saying that peanut butter is delicious, I'm saying that peanut butter is an ingredient called for in some recipes. I'm not saying it's good, I'm not saying it's bad: I'm saying that there are some sandwiches that use peanut butter, so treating it like it's the leprosy-in-a-jar doesn't really do someone any good. It's okay if you don't like peanut butter, or if you do, just don't act like it doesn't have a place in certain recipes.. and, of the same token, don't try to put peanut butter on my French dip sandwich.

That's why I keep saying "Numbers are useful when appropriate" and not "I like numbers" or "You should use numbers a lot" or "I prefer using numbers versus X, Y, or Z." I'm not arguing that numbers are good, I'm arguing that they aren't bad.

@LeeRoy I don't really fight anymore. The last time I fought was 2011/2012. I'm trying to get back into it at some point, but with getting the GCL going I'm busy with that. I'm honestly not sure I can even write appropriately for fights anymore -- I've spent the past two years neck-deep in knocking out manuscripts, and my "roleplaying" and "prose" writing styles are very different. It's like going from driving a monster truck to a go-cart.

I might try and get some matches in with people from my community, and if I feel like I've knocked the rust off, I'll scrap with some people over here. I just wouldn't want to be a disappointment because I've been out of the game so long that I'm not entirely sure I know how to play properly anymore. I don't really care about winning or losing, but I do care greatly about having an entertaining fight, and I'm probably not going to be much of one while I'm still (re)finding my sea legs.

Arena Chat Thread

@DLL

That's a bit of a stretch, because a) you've never seen me fight, b) my numerical information is largely in my profile for balancing purposes and almost never comes up in my IC posts and, c) I haven't once said that I prefer using numerical data to qualitative information, just that I don't think numerical information is a gassy by-product of Satan's fiery asshole to be avoided at all costs.

Like @MelonHead, most of the numerical data I use is in my profile, and it's designed to set limitations on my character. He has one ranged ability - to throw a bolt of lightning. I use numbers to define that ability two ways: first to define how far the attack can reach, and how fast the attack flies. Could I use some "relative" measurement? Sure, but as previously explained in my first post on the topic, that would just be an unnecessary qualification of information that's more easily explained with numbers. On the flipside, expecting someone to calculate the PSI of a punch is equally unnecessary quantification of information.

That's all it boils down to when it comes to using numbers: is using a number easier or more convenient as a means of explanation? Does it do a better job of conveying the information to your opponent? Does it provide an easy, immediate means of defining the limits of a character? If yes, use numbers. If no, forgo. It's not a question of preference, it's a question of using the tools available to provide my opponent with the information necessary to respond to my post, or a question of using the same tools to provide checks and balances for my character.

I'm not advocating for people to use numbers all the time, but I don't see any value in just ignoring a potential tool. It's like opening a toolbox and going "You know what? Fuck this wrench. I don't need it." Why are you throwing away a perfectly functional tool? Sure, no one expects you to use it in place of a hammer or screwdriver, but it's a perfectly good wrench. It has its purpose.

Arena Chat Thread

Examples

@LeeRoy

All of these examples sound like they have much of anything to do with quantifiable data. They all sound like they have to do with a difference in tier. That being said, even if it is based off of some use of numerical information, you're kind of blaming the wrong thing. This isn't an issue with the number, it's an issue with the person who used them.

This is the difference between a mechanical error and a user error. If you have an equation that is "solve for X" and a person fucks it up, it's not the equation's fault. It's the person's. In the same way, if someone uses numerical data to be an asshole.. you don't blame the numbers, you blame the person. You don't blame the tool, you blame the hand holding it. It's the same thing with people who are intentionally vague in their profiles so that they can "bend" the stated limits of their abilities. It's not the abilities that are the issue, it's the user.

Trying to equate strength is the most unassailable bastion of dumb logic I've ever seen though. Because we always wind up trying to calculate how much force a punch is going to have behind it. We always try to explain how hard a character who can lift 100 tons punches. And always wind up in these calculations that literally require a calculator to do.

I kind of feel like you didn't read my post, because I explained when numbers are useful and when they aren't, and one of the explicit examples I used as being unnecessary numerical minutiae is "calculating the PSI of a punch." It sounds like you had a bad experience with someone's playstyle, and now you've decided that using numbers is somehow "bad" in all situations, despite the fact that this is demonstrably false. Which, I mean, I can understand why dealing with someone's bullshit can make someone feel sketchy about certain things, but there's a point where it's not really reasonable. Going "No one should ever use numbers" is unreasonable when there are clear situations where numbers are provide important context clues for players from both a fighting and a balancing perspective.

For every instance where you've had a bad experience with someone who used numbers, I'm sure other people have had bad experiences with people who were purposefully vague. That doesn't mean that either practice -- utilizing qualitative or quantitative information -- is bad. It means that a) there are people who will misuse these things to their advantage and b) they are useful in different contexts.

Numerical data is more useful in some contexts, and less so in others. There's nothing wrong with that; the data itself is purely neutral. What's good or bad will always come down to someone's use or abuse of it.

There's a reason why I reserve my more unpleasant characters for tournaments, it's because it's going to force you into a situation where you aren't going to trust the person you're roleplaying. (Eventually.)

I trust every person I fight, even in tournaments. It's why my character profile is always readily available on public display when I fight -- I don't really worry about metagaming. I don't see any reason why a tournament would make me trust someone less, or why I would play anything other than the character that I want to play -- and I've fought almost exclusively in tournaments, including a 3 year run of being in the finals for a big, annual tournament and winning 2/3 of those finals. I've fought, or been involved in various fighting communities, for nearly ten years.

I have had two -- and only two -- fights that became negative where my opponent and I bickered. All my other fights have been more or less smooth sailing, despite the fact that I use the dreaded, abominable, crimes-against-nature tool that is quantifiable data for specific aspects of my character (namely his athletic stats).

Arena Roleplay is about Rule of Cool.

Math isn't fucking cool.

Au contraire, mon frère: the Arena is about the Rule of Logic. You can do what you want - whether it's "realistic" or "cool" John Woo/Matrix style stuff -- as long as it adheres to an internal logic. You do what works and what's authentic for your character from their perspective, whether or not it's necessarily cool or interesting.

And, as it stands, if my character can overhead press 405 pounds, then I consider the idea of him caber-tossing a washing machine at someone to be pretty fucking neat-o.

(I actually hate math. I legitimately have maybe a 10th grader's understanding of math. I don't know how I passed college algebra.)

Arena Chat Thread

Size and strength have a lot to do with punching power, or else we wouldn't have weight classes. They're not the only factors, but if they didn't matter then weight classes wouldn't be a thing. It's why the heavyweight division was so popular for a long time: it produced a lot of knockouts. A lot of knock-out power comes from technique, but when you have two people with the same technique, the person capable of producing more torsion through their legs, hips and shoulders is going to generate more force. That'll be the larger/stronger person most of the time, which is why you don't see featherweights boxing against heavyweights.

This is also why people usually consider lighter weight classes to be a better show of skill: they have less knock out power, and are more reliant on technique to get the job done, whereas bigger fighters can throw their weight around to end a match. You can see this a lot in the UFC with its fighters. That's part of what made Tyson so exciting; he was exceptionally talented AND ridiculously explosive. He was a heavyweight with the foot/headwork of a boxer 20 pounds lighter than him.

The machines used to measure PSI from punches are also pretty spotty. You can throw the same punch and get wildly differing numbers, especially when you consider the difference in punching angles and styles. For instance, there are people who have popped up PSI numbers higher than Tyson's 1800~ who very clearly don't have the knock-out power that Tyson has. Tyson popped that number with a hook versus a superman punch or a big, lunging straight. If someone takes a great, big crow-hop into their punch, it's going to reflect differently than Tyson's tight, close-quarters hook.

Which is why measuring PSI is largely useless as a comparison unless everyone is throwing the exact same punch -- and that's probably not going to happen.

Arena Chat Thread

@Vordak I'm always a busy baker. Kind of a requirement to keep myself out of trouble, really. Less so as I get older, but.. a good habit to foster.

@MelonHead I'll get an off-season coliseum/arena up eventually to let people fight exhibition matches between seasons. I'm just juggling a lot of things in tandem with my sleep apnea, which only lets me work in short bursts before I feel like sleeping the day away. Once I start a project, I tend to stay on top of it, though.

Arena Chat Thread

In quasi-related news, I've started up the project I discussed a month or two ago, the Gaian Combat League as a sort of spiritual successor to the large-scale tournaments my community used to have. Right now I'm pulling together staff and developing auxiliary threads to discuss things like character balance and fighting etiquette while gauging interest in the project. So far it's been going reasonably well.

Arena Chat Thread

There's no reason to cut out numbers entirely. They serve a relevant, useful purpose and can be beneficial for a) providing concrete limitations on character power and b) helping to define a character's power for thematic purposes. The most common questions a writer often has to answer are "Who, what, when, where, why, and how?" Numerical data can very easily answer "what" and "how" when needed. That doesn't mean you need numerical representations for everything, but they are useful.

Example: It's much more accurate to say that a character deadlifts 1100 lb than it is to say "My character is really strong." If you were to say "My character can lift X or Y object" what you're really saying is "My character can lift X or Y object which weighs approximately this or that much." At that point, you're dealing with unnecessary convolution, gilding the lily, so forth; it's easier and more accurate to say "My character deadlifts X amount of weight."

Obviously, as previously said, numbers can get in the way of things. There's a point where numbers aren't strictly necessary or useful.

Example: The PSI of a punch is not really necessary, nor would it be necessary to compare the PSI of a punch versus, say, the tensile strength of a rib bone in order to determine whether it would break under the punch. This would be unnecessary complication -- again, gilding the lily. What makes more sense is to describe it in clear terms to get the point across: if my character is coming at you with a bad-attitude left hook that has the potential to crack ribs, then I can reasonably expect my opponent to respect the descriptor provided without resorting to numerical data.

Example 2: The temperature of a fire ability. Necessary? Maybe at higher levels of power where you're melting metal, but at lower power levels, you can forgo actual temperatures and just say "This ability can give 1st/2nd degree burns" or something similar. That's the pertinent info your opponent needs. Temperature is of secondary importance, at best.

The bottom line of whether or not to utilize numbers is: will it help explain or define my character's abilities, or will it help my opponent understand my post? If it simplifies or provides benefits in the form of limitations, use the numbers. If it doesn't, then forgo them. KISS is the rule of the day when it comes to numerical data.

For profiles, I'll use a quick analogy. We have two fire users. Figuratively speaking, one is a shotgun, the other is a sniper rifle. Short range, burst AoE versus long-range, pinpoint single-target damage. Would numbers help define these characters and explain their playstyles? Sure. How far an ability can reach, how wide of an area it covers, etc. All useful information. Feel free to include it in your profile because you're using these numbers as limiting factors to further describe how your character works, and it provides essential information about how your character is supposed to operate (see above about "what, when, who, where, and how"). A character who can cover a mile long stretch of ground in fire is very different than someone who can cover 20 feet in fire.

On the other hand, I'll use my own character. I play a lighting-based character. I provide 0 information about joules, watts, volts, or anything else because it isn't necessary for how I play the character. I don't have to use quantifiable data for most of his abilities because it's not important. I can describe them: this shock will have X or Y effect. I don't need to go into the numerical minutiae of how the electricity works, what's important is its effects. In this situation, providing numbers for those "stats" - watts, volts, and so on - isn't beneficial. So I don't do it.

The bottom line should always be: does it help me create a more concrete outline of my character, and/or does it help my opponent understand my post. Err on the side of simplicity. If yes, use numbers. If no, then don't. Numerical data is neither good nor bad; it's merely another tool that someone can use to their - and to their opponent's - benefit. No reason to limit yourself.

Arena Chat Thread

It depends on the level of realism/powers too. Obviously a realistic character's going to have more restrictions, but a character with powers/tech/etc could have something like an extending shield. Starts as a buckler for minor defensive capabilities, but expands into a larger shield as needed. I've seen a character with a piece of equipment like that, the shield was layers of metal that would expand/collapse on command.

Arena Chat Thread

@LeeRoy

That's why I said

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't wear a buckler-sized shield (or something a little larger) strapped to your arm while retaining a free hand. We're not bound by historical veracity or anything

Arena Chat Thread

As far as I can remember reading, bucklers were never historically worn on the arm. They were always held in the hand because of their use in dueling.

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't wear a buckler-sized shield (or something a little larger) strapped to your arm while retaining a free hand. We're not bound by historical veracity or anything. It's just not something that happened in the real world. It's a thing in D&D though (iirc there's a Pathdfinder class built around the idea of wielding a two-handed weapon while wearing a buckler). It's not impossible from a structural/anatomical/strategic standpoint.