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Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Darth
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There's no reason to cut out numbers entirely. They serve a relevant, useful purpose and can be beneficial for a) providing concrete limitations on character power and b) helping to define a character's power for thematic purposes. The most common questions a writer often has to answer are "Who, what, when, where, why, and how?" Numerical data can very easily answer "what" and "how" when needed. That doesn't mean you need numerical representations for everything, but they are useful.

Example: It's much more accurate to say that a character deadlifts 1100 lb than it is to say "My character is really strong." If you were to say "My character can lift X or Y object" what you're really saying is "My character can lift X or Y object which weighs approximately this or that much." At that point, you're dealing with unnecessary convolution, gilding the lily, so forth; it's easier and more accurate to say "My character deadlifts X amount of weight."

Obviously, as previously said, numbers can get in the way of things. There's a point where numbers aren't strictly necessary or useful.

Example: The PSI of a punch is not really necessary, nor would it be necessary to compare the PSI of a punch versus, say, the tensile strength of a rib bone in order to determine whether it would break under the punch. This would be unnecessary complication -- again, gilding the lily. What makes more sense is to describe it in clear terms to get the point across: if my character is coming at you with a bad-attitude left hook that has the potential to crack ribs, then I can reasonably expect my opponent to respect the descriptor provided without resorting to numerical data.

Example 2: The temperature of a fire ability. Necessary? Maybe at higher levels of power where you're melting metal, but at lower power levels, you can forgo actual temperatures and just say "This ability can give 1st/2nd degree burns" or something similar. That's the pertinent info your opponent needs. Temperature is of secondary importance, at best.

The bottom line of whether or not to utilize numbers is: will it help explain or define my character's abilities, or will it help my opponent understand my post? If it simplifies or provides benefits in the form of limitations, use the numbers. If it doesn't, then forgo them. KISS is the rule of the day when it comes to numerical data.

For profiles, I'll use a quick analogy. We have two fire users. Figuratively speaking, one is a shotgun, the other is a sniper rifle. Short range, burst AoE versus long-range, pinpoint single-target damage. Would numbers help define these characters and explain their playstyles? Sure. How far an ability can reach, how wide of an area it covers, etc. All useful information. Feel free to include it in your profile because you're using these numbers as limiting factors to further describe how your character works, and it provides essential information about how your character is supposed to operate (see above about "what, when, who, where, and how"). A character who can cover a mile long stretch of ground in fire is very different than someone who can cover 20 feet in fire.

On the other hand, I'll use my own character. I play a lighting-based character. I provide 0 information about joules, watts, volts, or anything else because it isn't necessary for how I play the character. I don't have to use quantifiable data for most of his abilities because it's not important. I can describe them: this shock will have X or Y effect. I don't need to go into the numerical minutiae of how the electricity works, what's important is its effects. In this situation, providing numbers for those "stats" - watts, volts, and so on - isn't beneficial. So I don't do it.

The bottom line should always be: does it help me create a more concrete outline of my character, and/or does it help my opponent understand my post. Err on the side of simplicity. If yes, use numbers. If no, then don't. Numerical data is neither good nor bad; it's merely another tool that someone can use to their - and to their opponent's - benefit. No reason to limit yourself.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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I use statistics to -limit- my characters, not to win an e-peen competition. The fact is if you write vague abilities in your CS it isn't suitable for ranked play, because the honour code does not exist. When everything is on the line and you're fighting in a competitive sense the majority of fighters will use everything to their advantage, and vague abilities are the cornerstone of bullshitting your way out of a tough situation. Statistics enforce some degree of control over the parameters of a fight, with strict limits come inventive strategies and play that forces you to actually think.

Case in point, look how much trouble was caused by Divinity's vague skillset in their ranked fight with Dazsos, that would not have happened if everything was quantified properly. Now they have to argue over every action because no proper limitations were set going into the fight, and so there are no regulations. Neither wants to lose, so both are pulling out spell after spell to counter each others every move and there is no good way to fix the situation any more.

tl;dr Statistics are a limiting factor which is what makes them useful, generally vague descriptions of abilities are going to leave too much room for subjectivity and cause problems in ranked fights.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Darth
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In quasi-related news, I've started up the project I discussed a month or two ago, the Gaian Combat League as a sort of spiritual successor to the large-scale tournaments my community used to have. Right now I'm pulling together staff and developing auxiliary threads to discuss things like character balance and fighting etiquette while gauging interest in the project. So far it's been going reasonably well.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Vordak
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@Darth Someone's been damn busy. I think us roleplay fighters need to reach out and beat each others' faces band together, as the community seems to have grown thinner recently, so this is welcome news for me.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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In quasi-related news, I've started up the project I discussed a month or two ago, the Gaian Combat League as a sort of spiritual successor to the large-scale tournaments my community used to have. Right now I'm pulling together staff and developing auxiliary threads to discuss things like character balance and fighting etiquette while gauging interest in the project. So far it's been going reasonably well.


Interesting stuff, I'll keep an eye on it. I might feel like fighting before it gets underway and I've been looking for other places to find giants to slay, I'm pretty much done with RPG in that regard, except Skallagrim, but he never sticks around long enough for me to finish beating him up.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Darth
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@Vordak I'm always a busy baker. Kind of a requirement to keep myself out of trouble, really. Less so as I get older, but.. a good habit to foster.

@MelonHead I'll get an off-season coliseum/arena up eventually to let people fight exhibition matches between seasons. I'm just juggling a lot of things in tandem with my sleep apnea, which only lets me work in short bursts before I feel like sleeping the day away. Once I start a project, I tend to stay on top of it, though.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Innue
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@Innue Except Boxer punches generally carry 1200 - 1500 psi, with Mike Tyson carrying 1800 in his pockets.


Just saying that these ones were not getting that high of numbers (they weren't professionals). I'm sure that is entirely possible, I'm just stating that equating lifting strength to punches isn't necessarily accurate.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by ImportantNobody
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With the letter stats I plan on using, from S to E, it will be balanced between stats and no stats that are too vague. Each number is vaguely 50% better in that stat, more or less, so I can better keep track of stuff between my characters. It's not a pissing contest at all because if someone shows up who is stronger than someone and beats them, then he later comes in and has worse feats of strength for no reason, I could avoid that by keeping at least vague track of their stats so if that happens there's a reason for it.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Darth
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Size and strength have a lot to do with punching power, or else we wouldn't have weight classes. They're not the only factors, but if they didn't matter then weight classes wouldn't be a thing. It's why the heavyweight division was so popular for a long time: it produced a lot of knockouts. A lot of knock-out power comes from technique, but when you have two people with the same technique, the person capable of producing more torsion through their legs, hips and shoulders is going to generate more force. That'll be the larger/stronger person most of the time, which is why you don't see featherweights boxing against heavyweights.

This is also why people usually consider lighter weight classes to be a better show of skill: they have less knock out power, and are more reliant on technique to get the job done, whereas bigger fighters can throw their weight around to end a match. You can see this a lot in the UFC with its fighters. That's part of what made Tyson so exciting; he was exceptionally talented AND ridiculously explosive. He was a heavyweight with the foot/headwork of a boxer 20 pounds lighter than him.

The machines used to measure PSI from punches are also pretty spotty. You can throw the same punch and get wildly differing numbers, especially when you consider the difference in punching angles and styles. For instance, there are people who have popped up PSI numbers higher than Tyson's 1800~ who very clearly don't have the knock-out power that Tyson has. Tyson popped that number with a hook versus a superman punch or a big, lunging straight. If someone takes a great, big crow-hop into their punch, it's going to reflect differently than Tyson's tight, close-quarters hook.

Which is why measuring PSI is largely useless as a comparison unless everyone is throwing the exact same punch -- and that's probably not going to happen.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Drifting Pollen
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tl;dr Statistics are a limiting factor which is what makes them useful, generally vague descriptions of abilities are going to leave too much room for subjectivity and cause problems in ranked fights.


IDK... I think these 'problems' only arise when both sides become more dead-set on winning than on having fun.

I've personally experienced bullshitting of the kind you describe. However, I can make up for this by having vague abilities of my own. If someone says "but my attack/defense is stronger!" then I'll just ask them how they know. With no numbers to support either side, the attack that comes out on top is usually the one with more preparation and planning behind it. Of course, I've had opponents who just BSed their way through everything I threw at them regardless- but they knew they were bullshitting, and eventually conceded with barely any argument and no need for judge intervention. Honor is not dead, it just takes a little patience to lure it out.

Not saying that numbers are bad per se, but I've dealt with vagueness in plenty of fights, and it's never stopped me from having fun or wrecking faces.

In quasi-related news, I've started up the project I discussed a month or two ago, the Gaian Combat League as a sort of spiritual successor to the large-scale tournaments my community used to have.


I am so in!
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

IDK... I think these 'problems' only arise when both sides become more dead-set on winning than on having fun.

I've personally experienced bullshitting of the kind you describe. However, I can make up for this by having vague abilities of my own. If someone says "but my attack/defense is stronger!" then I'll just ask them how they know. With no numbers to support either side, the attack that comes out on top is usually the one with more preparation and planning behind it.


That's all fine and good when people adhere to T1 Eden prepping, but the vast majority of attacks and defences are split second and non-prepared, so in that exact situation you describe you ask them how they know, and then you argue for three or four posts because you have literally no science or statistic to draw on that was decided upon before the fight occurred. You then have exactly what Dazsos and Divinity have, because quantifying vague powers after a fight has began is risky at best. Not to mention people ignore the vast majority of preps anyway, I've had three of my prepared attacks barely registered in the last week or so, no one really cares.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Dazsos
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Glad to see someone is enjoying my prolonged debates with Divinity.

I'd go in to detail about my ire for super-vaguely written skills, but then it might seem like I'm mocking my opponent behind his back. So I'll just say I agree with Melon when he says Statistics are a limiting factor which is what makes them useful, generally vague descriptions of abilities are going to leave too much room for subjectivity and cause problems in ranked fights.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Divinity
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@MelonHeadI am of a generation that closely monitored preps. Preps, in my experience, generally take at least a turn, or a whole phase to mature, and require some kind of extra mentions to let it be known a prep is cooking.

Edit: Depending on the community, there were also limits on the number of things that could be prepped at once. I'm pretty sure that since Eden era is phase-centric, you get a single prep a turn.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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@MelonHeadI am of a generation that closely monitored preps. Preps, in my experience, generally take at least a turn, or a whole phase to mature, and require some kind of extra mentions to let it be known a prep is cooking.

Edit: Depending on the community, there were also limits on the number of things that could be prepped at once. I'm pretty sure that since Eden era is phase-centric, you get a single prep a turn.


All true, one prep per turn, only simple actions can be carried out during (though this is flexible in my experience, higher tier characters tend to do some complex stuff at the same time, but to them those actions are simple) and taking hits during or after removes the most recent preparation (problematic, but that's the way the system is balanced.) In some reiterations of T1 Eden the intention of the prep even has to be clearly stated, though I prefer it if there's simply a strong hint of impending danger, something visible in some form. However as I say not everything is prepped, particularly defences, and in situations where all things are equal sometimes other factors are required, namely statistics or at least quantifiable descriptors. The trick is making sure those same statistics are balanced out, if something is fast its not as strong, etc etc. Shame people don't really care for balancing as much as they used to.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Divinity
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@MelonHeadI particularly agree with Preps being allowed to be 'strong hints', rather than a complete mapping of its effects and intentions.

Balancing is important, but wouldn't a faster moving object also have more energy(assuming it also had decent mass) and therefore more power? Speed sacrifices maneuverability(particularly for characters, since laws of motion apply) if anything. I could agree that something becoming harder therefore becomes less flexible and such, though.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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@MelonHeadI particularly agree with Preps being allowed to be 'strong hints', rather than a complete mapping of its effects and intentions.

Balancing is important, but wouldn't a faster moving object also have more energy(assuming it also had decent mass) and therefore more power? Speed sacrifices maneuverability(particularly for characters, since laws of motion apply) if anything. I could agree that something becoming harder therefore becomes less flexible and such, though.


I meant speed in an abstract form, though in physics terms an object of smaller mass can be moved 'quicker' because it requires less energy to overcome inertia, I suppose 'agility' would be a better term. Take a gun for an example, the bullet is an effective projectile because its small and aerodynamic with low mass which means with relatively little energy it can be propelled at great speed and still cause significant damage. The cannon ball does far more damage, but it's slower, not to mention far more unwieldy to walk around with.

Still, it's more of a balancing thing, otherwise everyone would just walk around with rail-guns.

Point is, if you're generating an attack either with magic or physical means, larger projectiles are harder to get going but cause more damage when they get there. Statistics are useful for quantifying that sort of thing.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by ImportantNobody
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Force equals mass times acceleration squared, so acceleration is more important than mass for the force. It depends how much the larger object slows you down if it ends up with more power when it hits, which would be more of a factor the more at you're limit you are and if it's you having to physically move the object. If there's a little rock and a medium rock and both you can sling forward with relative ease, the medium would indeed tend to always do more damage. If you can barely toss a huge rock forward it could still hurt if it falls and crushes your foot, but getting hit with a small pebble would sting more on the initial impact then the large rock getting tossed forward into you, more like a bump. Gravity is supplying the acceleration needed for the heavier object to do more damage in that case as it falls down onto you, otherwise it would be very weak.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Drifting Pollen
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Force equals mass times acceleration squared


I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Force equals mass times acceleration, there's no square in there.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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Literally this entire argument and discourse about math and numbers is why numbers need to be gone. This is a full page of multiple paragraph long posts trying to grind home the idea that math makes this whole thing fun.

It doesn't.

This whole math thing is what alienates new players, much the same as the anti-gun sentiment alienates an entire genre of character.

I'm willing to argue this, but it's 1:30, and I'm gonna sleep before I do that. My next post will detail my point.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by ImportantNobody
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<Snipped quote by ImportantNobody>

I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Force equals mass times acceleration, there's no square in there.




Literally this entire argument and discourse about math and numbers is why numbers need to be gone. This is a full page of multiple paragraph long posts trying to grind home the idea that math makes this whole thing fun.


The new character I'm making will have no numbers. Hopefully he'll be done within the hour. Yes, he! I shall finally be able to make another male character! Who's not Halfwood who I've briefly put off creating a sheet for.
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