[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[Vordak]

@ImportantNobody I think the formula you were looking for was that of kinetic energy, which is indeed, one half of mass times velocity squared.

[Fallenreaper]

<Snipped quote by Drifting Pollen>

@ImportantNobody

*snickers*

I think, out of all the discussion, I agree with @Darth's reasoning about some math being good but not to get carried away with it. Math, unless your job requires it daily, is difficult as you debate and go into the higher stuff beyond basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division which even in text is hard to apply. Right now, you're mainly talking about someone setting up a punch in a control setting when arena fights aren't really like that at all. Your target doesn't stand still and let you hit them repeatedly or let you set up your stance. So using formulas and over complicated numbers to determine strength, speed, etc is rather difficult since there's so many factors within the fight that can influence something like that. Condition of your fighter for one at the time of the punch and your opponent's positioning, I much doubt they will sit there and you each take turns punching each other.

Looking back, I might've I had that issue with Trixi in my first fight. I think both @Drifting Pollen and my partner could see I was trying to be reasonable and fair, though I was more hurting myself because I was over thinking it to a degree I was becoming frustrated at my own imperfection. Formulas and anything beyond simple numbers might seem to make things fair or bring reasonable reality into the mix, but in the long run the effort =/= the fun usually. No offense, if you're going to use numbers and formulas to establish stuff... isn't that more like tabletop?

[ImportantNobody]

Why I was trying to figure out some numbers is because vague stuff like, "he's strong enough to punch a bear's lights out" doesn't really cut it for proper comparison. Like how would that compare to being able to lift a grown man up from the ground with one hand and throw him across the room? Or lift 30 coconuts? If we don't use numbers and all pull out random feats of strength, all we can really do is assume they are just about equal in their abilities if we just went by the honor system. Even trying to be as honorable as possible it would still be hard to know how things would truly pan out the more vague things are.

[LeeRoy]

Hell with it, I've reached coffee/insomnia synthesis again. I'll go ahead and make my point. I'll read the longer posts while I'm doing that.

[Fallenreaper]

Why I was trying to figure out some numbers is because vague stuff like, "he's strong enough to punch a bear's lights out" doesn't really cut it for proper comparison. Like how would that compare to being able to lift a grown man up from the ground with one hand and throw him across the room? Or lift 30 coconuts? If we don't use numbers and all pull out random feats of strength, all we can really do is assume they are just about equal in their abilities if we just went by the honor system.

@ImportantNobody

What about listing how much the bear can actually apply in strength along side that description? I think in Iron's CS old version I described how he could easily lift a jaguar (surprisingly they are heavier than I actually originally thought for their size), which was about X amount of pounds, over his shoulders without much issue. I also stated numbers were alright, but when you get into math above comparison and into pure line and realistic (as in accounting every detail type) physics then things feel like they get a little sticky. It's not easy accounting, as I stated before, everything little thing in a textual fight. And positioning influences attack damage due to surface area hit.

Honestly, every time you get into a fight aren't you already expecting the individual to play fair and uphold that honor system? Otherwise you would avoid the person and any fights related to them so you have to have some trust from the start to even battle them.

[LeeRoy]

I agree with you in some regards, @Darth

But in the two or three years I've been here, I began this weird love hate relationship with numbers.

I joined and I refused to do numbers. And got a lil' pissy when the whole numbers thing was dropped on me.

I then wholly accepted numbers. And got a lil' pissy when I saw that numbers weren't being used.

And now once again I reject numbers. And I'm realizing the error of using numbers to the degree that we do, and I'm kinda pissy about it.

I get pissy alot.

Why?

This exact argument that I've had a few times: (These are extreme examples, but he was AT THE TIME, THE HOST OF THE MULTIVERSE. SO IT COUNTS.)

"Even though you let your teammate charge for eight whole turns, because the two of your characters are so much weaker than mine, it doesn't kill them."

"Your character is weaker than mine on the character sheet. So even though my character doesn't have supernaturally strong eyes, it doesn't hurt their eyes."

Edit: Third Example, same guy. "I didn't read your character sheet properly, didn't know that you could do that. Got caught off guard, and should have died. But because I'm stronger than you, it just knocks him unconscious."

Trying to equate strength is the most unassailable bastion of dumb logic I've ever seen though. Because we always wind up trying to calculate how much force a punch is going to have behind it. We always try to explain how hard a character who can lift 100 tons punches. And always wind up in these calculations that literally require a calculator to do.

If I'm doing math homework while writing up a character sheet, I'm not happy.

If I'm having to do math homework to post one fucking time? I'm really not happy.

If I'm having to do math homework just to chance at not losing a tournamnet? I'm fuckin' pissed.

If I describe a character's strength, I'm not going to go outside of the bounds of the relative strength I've listed. I'm an asshole, not a cunt.

I'm not going to cheat, and honestly, nobody else should be inclined to.

Honestly, every time you get into a fight aren't you already expecting the individual to play fair and uphold that honor system? Otherwise you would avoid the person and any fights related to them so you have to have some trust from the start to even battle them.

@Fallenreaper

Quite literally this.

If you don't trust the person that you're roleplaying against, then why are you doing it?

"What about tournaments?!"

There's a reason why I reserve my more unpleasant characters for tournaments, it's because it's going to force you into a situation where you aren't going to trust the person you're roleplaying. (Eventually.)

It should be an honor system, even in a roleplay with a person you can't trust. If you can't trust them, force them to feel like a piece of shit and stay in your self assigned lane.

I'm not saying that you can't do it, like. If you adhere to the Marvel Db's listing of Ton Classes, that's fine. But like.

Don't try and calculate how much force goes into punching a hole in a brick wall.

Fucking.

Damn.

Arena Roleplay is about Rule of Cool.

Math isn't fucking cool.

[Fallenreaper]

Math isn't fucking cool.

@LeeRoy

Depends on what it is related to. However, in this case no it isn't.

[ImportantNobody]

Trust isn't always about if they are intentionally cheating. You can't trust me to know if someone who can punch through a brick wall could also lift a van with that same level of strength, as but one example. So that leaves me with rule of cool for what I think sounds right in my head. I'm fine with doing stuff like that, even if I'd probably just underestimate myself and have them fail.

[Fallenreaper]

Trust isn't always about if they are intentionally cheating. You can't trust me to know if someone who can punch through a brick wall could also lift a van with that same level of strength, as but one example. So that leaves me with rule of cool for what I think sounds right in my head. I'm fine with doing stuff like that, even if I'd probably just underestimate myself and have them fail.

@ImportantNobody

Some times your own judgement can actually be the only worthwhile aid. Namely if you're trying to be fair, honest, and truthful then aren't you still honoring the system of the arena even if you might be wrong? Effort, at least to me, usually counts more than success because it means you value honor more than actually whipping my ass and gaining bragging right.

To be perfectly bunt, you can't account or determine everything in the arena because it's a fantasy/textual setting. In addition, replies are points of views from PCs so it's the character's isn't it? They might not know this stuff either or even care and some people write from their PC's point of view. At least that's how I usually rp in arena is from my PC's point of view. Not sure about everyone else.

[Dazsos]

@LeeRoyYou adore guns. You hate numbers. You're angry. You're sure that people can survive multiple gunshot wounds and come out with a knife kill.

I've come to the conclusion that you are the human incarnation of Call of Duty.

The rest of us that like numbers and math are probably reincarnations of various MMOs. Cause you know... wooo, level up! 45 Strength! Etc etc.

[Drifting Pollen]

To be honest, I think either way can work... On one hand: on my 'home' forum, numbers are barely ever used at all in a fight (other than prep counts) and I've been able to do several fun, clean fights there. On the other hand, I've also been on forums where everything is stat-based (e.g. 'my character has 20 speed, and can therefore run a 3 minute mile') and have still been able to do several fun, clean fights.

So really, I think people should just go with whatever system they prefer. The fact is that problems and arguments don't arise from a specific system, they arise from people being stubborn. From what I've seen, such people will start arguments no matter which system is used... Now, whether or not arguments are a normal part of RP fights or not is a whole different can of worms, but essentially using numbers or not using them won't help much if the people fighting are already the kind who don't get along smoothly.

[Darth]

Examples

@LeeRoy

All of these examples sound like they have much of anything to do with quantifiable data. They all sound like they have to do with a difference in tier. That being said, even if it is based off of some use of numerical information, you're kind of blaming the wrong thing. This isn't an issue with the number, it's an issue with the person who used them.

This is the difference between a mechanical error and a user error. If you have an equation that is "solve for X" and a person fucks it up, it's not the equation's fault. It's the person's. In the same way, if someone uses numerical data to be an asshole.. you don't blame the numbers, you blame the person. You don't blame the tool, you blame the hand holding it. It's the same thing with people who are intentionally vague in their profiles so that they can "bend" the stated limits of their abilities. It's not the abilities that are the issue, it's the user.

Trying to equate strength is the most unassailable bastion of dumb logic I've ever seen though. Because we always wind up trying to calculate how much force a punch is going to have behind it. We always try to explain how hard a character who can lift 100 tons punches. And always wind up in these calculations that literally require a calculator to do.

I kind of feel like you didn't read my post, because I explained when numbers are useful and when they aren't, and one of the explicit examples I used as being unnecessary numerical minutiae is "calculating the PSI of a punch." It sounds like you had a bad experience with someone's playstyle, and now you've decided that using numbers is somehow "bad" in all situations, despite the fact that this is demonstrably false. Which, I mean, I can understand why dealing with someone's bullshit can make someone feel sketchy about certain things, but there's a point where it's not really reasonable. Going "No one should ever use numbers" is unreasonable when there are clear situations where numbers are provide important context clues for players from both a fighting and a balancing perspective.

For every instance where you've had a bad experience with someone who used numbers, I'm sure other people have had bad experiences with people who were purposefully vague. That doesn't mean that either practice -- utilizing qualitative or quantitative information -- is bad. It means that a) there are people who will misuse these things to their advantage and b) they are useful in different contexts.

Numerical data is more useful in some contexts, and less so in others. There's nothing wrong with that; the data itself is purely neutral. What's good or bad will always come down to someone's use or abuse of it.

There's a reason why I reserve my more unpleasant characters for tournaments, it's because it's going to force you into a situation where you aren't going to trust the person you're roleplaying. (Eventually.)

I trust every person I fight, even in tournaments. It's why my character profile is always readily available on public display when I fight -- I don't really worry about metagaming. I don't see any reason why a tournament would make me trust someone less, or why I would play anything other than the character that I want to play -- and I've fought almost exclusively in tournaments, including a 3 year run of being in the finals for a big, annual tournament and winning 2/3 of those finals. I've fought, or been involved in various fighting communities, for nearly ten years.

I have had two -- and only two -- fights that became negative where my opponent and I bickered. All my other fights have been more or less smooth sailing, despite the fact that I use the dreaded, abominable, crimes-against-nature tool that is quantifiable data for specific aspects of my character (namely his athletic stats).

Arena Roleplay is about Rule of Cool.

Math isn't fucking cool.

Au contraire, mon frère: the Arena is about the Rule of Logic. You can do what you want - whether it's "realistic" or "cool" John Woo/Matrix style stuff -- as long as it adheres to an internal logic. You do what works and what's authentic for your character from their perspective, whether or not it's necessarily cool or interesting.

And, as it stands, if my character can overhead press 405 pounds, then I consider the idea of him caber-tossing a washing machine at someone to be pretty fucking neat-o.

(I actually hate math. I legitimately have maybe a 10th grader's understanding of math. I don't know how I passed college algebra.)

[Divinity]

All systems are good, if I am not being too liberal in saying so. All systems that are not perfect, which are all of them, come with potential abuses, workarounds, and cheaters who will do whatever it takes to win and steal a claim to valor. In my 16 years doing this, I've become more transient to titles, tiers, and semantics. I just go with the flow.

[Innue]

I'm generally comfortable with loose tiers rather than trying to create much definition between them because there can still be significant difference between two characters of the same tier that just happen to sit on opposite ends of even just a subsection of the tier.

As for numbers, they have their place. Often they can be overused. Rarely should someone need to bring up specific numbers and calculations in a battle. Primarily, I used it to keep track of specific distances so I can keep a sense of how much time is taken up when addressing movement son the battlefield. There are a few other uses for it, such as when strict comparisons need to be made, but those instances are rare in my books.

[Enki]

The debate is pretty silly because it has to come down to those that are particpating have to agree to the same or similar ideas to whatever they are trying to do.

Both would have to do more math or it won't work. Like I'm freeform to the core but trying to hang with the t1 crowd here seeing if there are people that are fun to game with.

But the point of it is, unless there is an understanding going in it will devolve into bs no matter what.

[LeeRoy]

@Dazsos
Call of Duty uses numbers.

Also the series except for Modern Warfare is garbage.

[LeeRoy]

The debate is pretty silly because it has to come down to those that are particpating have to agree to the same or similar ideas to whatever they are trying to do.

Both would have to do more math or it won't work. Like I'm freeform to the core but trying to hang with the t1 crowd here seeing if there are people that are fun to game with.

But the point of it is, unless there is an understanding going in it will devolve into bs no matter what.

@Enki

Yeah, you're kinda right.

[Fallenreaper]

The debate is pretty silly because it has to come down to those that are particpating have to agree to the same or similar ideas to whatever they are trying to do.

Both would have to do more math or it won't work. Like I'm freeform to the core but trying to hang with the t1 crowd here seeing if there are people that are fun to game with.

But the point of it is, unless there is an understanding going in it will devolve into bs no matter what.

@Enki

I wouldn't go as far as say it's silly. Not the best topic maybe, but not silly because I'm actually enjoying reading and seeing the different sides of the debate as long it doesn't get heated. Debates of any sort is usually how I form thoughts, notes, etc about people in an OoC setting as well as learn about the arena itself. Example: I've only been in one rp, Kestrel's Library rp, where numbers have been applied in textual setting but it wasn't in the arena. So I got some information that I otherwise was ignorant of really.

I also enjoy the view points, thoughts, and explanation on it from different people on matter. It, surprisingly, gives me a lot information on those involved in the debate while seeing how they might react to my thoughts and how I view it. So far, at least for now, everyone's been a bit chilled about the whole thing. Though if you got a better topic to discuss, then now would be an ideal time to bring it up and share?

[Maquina]

The main issue I've always encountered with numbers is that Numbers People and Descriptions People (a.k.a. lack-of-numbers people) tend to fall into two different mindsets.

Numbers People tend to be rules sticklers, looking for strict math, science, and comparisons between characters - the dreaded "my 1500 newtons tops your 1200 newtons, so you lose" argument. Note that only idiots actually make that argument, but it's sort of endemic to the Numbers Person mindset - they're engineers doing head-math in their fights, looking for precision and quantification. They get incredibly frustrated when nothing but qualitative comparisons are made, because those comparisons don't mean anything to them. Obviously the good math-heads can deal with some vagueness, especially given the million and one variables in any given fight. They tend to be the more competitive/structured guys, because a numbers system lends itself well to organized competition.

Other guys, though? They ain't here for numbers. I'll admit - I am not a numbers guy. I hate assigning stats to my characters, even weird pseudo-IRL stats like deadlift weight, footspeed, maximum-force-exertable, shit like that. To me, doing that sort of thing gets in the way of the Flow of Awesome. I'm not ever going to do ranked fights here because I'm not competing so much as running my own personal anime and substituting other players for episode bosses every now and then. To me, certain things should be obvious - an oni is GOING TO BE stronger than a human. That's a given. I don't need to measure the oni's physical strength and give a concrete statistic delineating the ceiling of the oni's strength to show that if he swings his kanabo and a human guy blocks with his sword, that block is gonna be no bloody good without something else backing it.

If advantage/disadvantage isn't that obvious? Then the circumstances of a particular fight/action should hold sway over and above numbers. If the 1500n and 1200n guys above are locked hand-to-hand in a grapple, but the 1200n guy has better footing and a stronger grip...why should he lose that action just because the other guy has a theoretically higher maximum force limit than he does? The 1200n guy has advantage in that action; the 1500n guy might be able to muscle out of it, but he's still going to come out of the encounter on the bottom end without some clever moves.

Fights are fluid, shifting things, not equations to be solved. If you can tell who has advantage, who is at a disadvantage, and which characters have edges in which areas, that should be sufficient in my view. If it's not sufficient, then you sit down and hammer out what is. If the other guy's a big enough douchehammer that you can't hammer it out, then either you call a judge if one's available...or you just give it up as a bad job and put that guy on your No Punch List.

I've never needed numbers to settle disputes with amicable players. That doesn't mean numbers are bad - it just means that my own personal style of play and history is more conducive to descriptive, qualitative freeform than to quantitative structure. Means I can put Darth and Melon on my No Punch List right off the bat, but they aren't bad guys - just bad fits for my Boss of the Week. They'd get frustrated with me never giving them the hard, empirical data they're looking for, and I'd get frustrated with them not just rolling with it and making judgment calls.

That's okay, though. That's what LeeRoy's for, after all. 'Least until Cee's done twisting Virtuoso into a pretty golden bow to stick on top of the Venture.

[MelonHead]

Like I said, I use statistics to limit myself, you can do what you want. I don't call people out on every single vast scientific and logical inconsistency I see, only the glaring ones, and I'd want people to do the same for me. There's countless small issues I let slide for the sake of 'rule of cool' particularly in unranked fights, you'll never know what those issues are though unless you really want to ask me about them. Still, it matters little to me if you wouldn't fight me or not in the end, I won't be fighting anyone for a while anyway.