Dinh AaronMk

The Ghosts of Napoleon

@Letter Bee

Then you're good to go and you can move the application to the character's section.

I will say though as a final comment to put it out there: I know Muhammad Ali can appear as "based and wholesome" for building a giant and independent Egyptian State, but keep in mind too the premise of the RP is eventually and currently rebellion and revolution in some form or another and the immense centralized regime of Muhammad Ali was racked by frequent major rebellion. His nationalization program made him the de facto landlord of all Egypt not seen in the region since the Pharaohs and in Islamic tradition that's not considered the best thing; worse than that he is at the end of the day an Albanian, outside of the regional politics of "I Know A Guy".

The Ghosts of Napoleon

@Letter Bee

Do you need to make any additions to your application or is it pretty much set?

The Ghosts of Napoleon

France's commitments to the Middle East is that the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire and Egypt should be respected

The Ghosts of Napoleon

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>
Can you clarify a bit? Does it mran that we don't know what's up with the Prussians vut most likely they still exist? I remember that Prussians still lost their chance of becoming a great or even regional power so I guess there is a huge migration issue they deal with? Do if yes then perhaps I can still include in my writing how to exploit that to get some experienced personnel where one would need them.

@Willy Vereb

The root of the answer boils down to:

The effective Point of Divergence for the RP is the Treaties of Tilsit. While the Prussian monarchy existed practically in so far as Napoleon willed them to continue existing, the stipulations of the treaties outlined merely reparations the Prussian state would have to pay to France and saddled them with crippling debt. Originally signed to bring the Russians into the Continental System and assist Napoleon against the British and the Swedish, the Emperor decided to regardless test the faith of the Russians and instead of simply abiding the slow repayment of debts by Prussia to France, he opted for an immediate and systematic liquidation of Prussian estates to repay the debts. The effect of which was a far more aggressive melting down of the medieval junker class that had until then ruled Prussia and Germany and the rise of the independent small-hold Peasant who were able to acquire their own property for cheap or on lenient financing.

Prussia as a concept or state wasn't annihilated, since in the process of De-Nepoleonization and reducing the extent of French power in Europe it was an aspect of old Prussia. And considering there is as quoted later the first exile of Napoleon, followed by instead a much longer Hundred Days, the phase of French occupation in Prussia wasn't particularly long. But the effects of it went deeper. And for geopolitical reference, as this applies here: the process of peace in Europe during the first Bourbon Restoration was simply to roll back Napoleon's accomplishments, the second peace was to basically roll back France's gains of most of the revolutionary period; especially given the much longer reign Napoleon acquired after winning Waterloo, extending the Hundred Days into A-Lot-Longer-Than-Hundred-Days.

Returning to Europe a hero, Napoleon claimed himself immortal. But rumors abounded that his armies had taken more of a drubbing than he was letting on, and Europe was plunged into the War of the Sixth Coalition by Austria, England, and anti-Napoleon forces in Central and southern Europe that managed to discover and utilize the unhealed weakness in Napoleon's forces from Russia. He was defeated and sent to Elba, which he recovered from and returned to France, defeating the restored Bourbons and rebuilding his Empire

The matter is indirectly addressed here-in, in a sense. Perhaps he never swept over all of Prussia again to depose Hohenzollern rule after it was reimposed after the First Restoration of Bourbon. But in any case, Waterloo was still fought and it's implications to the existence of Prussia there-in.

It is the best of times and the worst of times in Europe. Fourteen years ago, Napoleon Bonapart, Emperor of the French was finally defeated in battle against a coalition force of the British, Swedish, and Russians in an invasion of the British home islands at Kent. In that space of time he had mastered the field of Waterloo, sending the forces of the Seventh Coalition into chaos which he was able to use and bring about his Empire for a second time and continue war against all Europe.

Where a decisive feature for the victory was the Prussians finding their way having gotten lost and arriving in the nick of time, late but not helplessly so of which they were OTL a credit to the Coalition. In this case: not so much, so Prussian proof of restoration was sort of lacking.

So we return to the salient point of the present state of Prussia and Northern Germany

the medieval junker class

The Junkers as a class formed the bulwark of Germanic nobility in the north and the expansion of Germanization of the Slavic lands east of the Elba river and it was in them that much - or all - of the farm land of the Prussian/German state was held through a long line of inheritance passed through the line of the eldest son. During Prussia's rise from Duchy to Kingdom and to the very end the Junkers formed the core of the officer class because sons without inheritance had no where else to go and otherwise held the chivalric tendencies of their class position and education. However, Napoleon did in this RP to the Junkers as the Revolution did to the nobility and destroyed their estates for direct liquidation to not-ennobled Germans as a means to leverage finance for the campaign and performed a dramatic re-organizing of the Prussian state in the process of cutting out the Junker class.

It was not Prussia that was destroyed, but the bulwark of its own aristocracy. The Prussian nobles may have or most likely joined their French counterparts as emigres to England or Russia or elsewhere to wait things out until they could go back and reclaim their estates. But as evidenced by how incomplete Bourbon Absolutist restoration was in France and how OTL and GoN Charles X has not been able to totally destroy the Charter and gut the Napoleonic administration, and how the Napoleonic Civil Code was dominate over most of - if not all - Continental Europe for nearly or more than a century, returning Prussian Junkers who come back to Prussia to reclaim their estates are having at the least a time and a half at it, as the old nobility of France returning after the final and Second Restoration.

This would not however mean that Prussia is necessarily completely ruined. Just totally changed from what it was OTL, a state ruled by a petty nobility who had the military state totally subsumed to its own ego, which then becomes the state. Returning to Prussia Junkers who find it difficult to get their vast estates back from emancipated and landed serfs may just retreat to their last traditional bastion of military service in Prussia. Or even retreat to another major European power; probably not a German minor. The physical shape of Prussia in the new world is determined by what the Congress decided and signed off on in whatever whacky layers of legitimate terms and traditional secret terms in the treaty (in the vein of Compo Formio surrendering Venice to Austria to end the First Coalition).

The state of Prussia isn't so much that it isn't a formidable power in its own right, but it is greatly different from what it was in real life. It's old nobility is a shell of itself. There is a new rural middle class in the form of a larger German landowning base who got their land at French military auction. The Napoleonic state apparatus left behind has left an urban administrative middle class. The Junkers have to trade barbs with their new rivals and the King and his family has to manage the mess, but may have picked up compensatory prizes from the British, Russians, and Talleyrand.

To summarize:
No it means the Prussians still exist, the formatting of the opening post has apparently just lost people because of the Tale of Two Cities type beat to it.
They're still an important German state, any emigration of the old German class is probably going to just be back home to pick up the family legacy, as much as it can be restored. Why go off to someone else if they are less able to get them land? Might as well have careers among the familiar social milieu if nothing else.

The Ghosts of Napoleon

BTW, what happened to Prussia after Napoleon squashed them? I may be blind but don't see this mentioned. Did their lands get absorbed by the nearby German states? They still exist but shadows of their past glory?

@Willy Vereb

London Congress 1822 also known as Prussian Restoration Project because no one, not even Talleyrand wants to know what is in the Mystery Box

Or Poland

The Ghosts of Napoleon

@Willy Vereb

I can't say a lot to proposals until an application is posted. So you're going to have to do some more work than just describing a picture in your head. At least provide a sketch.

But this does give me a conceptual idea that I overlooked when I first made the RP and is perhaps one of those things that can only come up when a concept is returned to seven months after the fact. That being if you're signing up in Europe, or at least Western and Central Europe (Italy included) what does the Congress of London have to say about this? In so far as its mentioned I think a I'm the only one who mentioned it in my French app as it applies to post-Napoleon France. But since we have two people here who are playing as European majors and members of the Congress - Russia and England - this offers a chance of feedback not only from me but two others that can fill out the terms of the Congress, where as I might at the least play the bit part of France in this, by which I mean the self-conscious and intrigue-pilled Talleyrand.

So, pick something, write up a sketch at least to hit the beats, and hand it over to be checked by the Congress Powers to decide whether or not it would fit in a greater plan to stitch the ruin of Old Europe back together as much as possible.

As per the Discord, as indicated earlier this is some Lost Tentative Lore because I had one before, but because lack of attention I decided to delete it to clean up my Discord chats and everyone else's. So for the time being I think I will prefere the permanent public record of forum posts and for people to establish IC habits before I relaunch the Onion Chat. At the least to figure out what these waves up newbies are going to be doing and if this surprise relaunch is going to get wind.

The Ghosts of Napoleon

@Pagemaster

If I remember late tonight and if I have time I'll do another pass-over, at the latest over the weekend. Unless I forget. I just spent what time I had left to crank out a new post.

The Ghosts of Napoleon

France

Thionville, Department Grand Est

The young Charles stood at the doorstep of Number Sixteen, Rue de la Paix clutching his hat in his hands. Broad and stocky he betrayed a severe athletic appearance. The bright summer sun fell across the wide shoulders of his long summer coat and across his crown of thick curly hair and ruddy, dark complexion, almost peasant like, as a field hand and not the son of a respected lawyer. His eyes, typically sharp were dulled by the fear and anxiety of what lay behind the door of Number Sixteen. He knew it very much. It was not hard to summon him back home. A stern letter of condemnation and a demand by the eighteen year old's father had lit under the boots of the young man the sense that there was an impending doom for him. Now the young bohemian, whose chin was graced with the first short carpet of a man's beard shuffled uncomfortably before the home of his father as the pedestrian traffic meandered by under the clear summer's day. The hooves of horses thumped dully off the packed clay streets as carriages of the promenading casual class passed by. All of them ignored him as they went on, though a few neighbors recognized the return of Charles Levi and greeted him warmly. He reciprocated their welcomes uncomfortably, with a stiff German “bonjour” before working up his confidence and stepping in through the door.

Inside, the harsh brightness of a mid-summer's afternoon was dulled through the curtains of the respectable romantic home. Its high wallpapered walls, printed with wrapping and meandering floral patterns rose well above reach to the aging yellow plaster of the ceiling. Here and there a few oil lamps burned to cast better light for the dimming eyesight of Charle's father, Heinrich Levi who sat in a dark green high-backed armchair reading the papers. At the table besides him stacks of books pertaining to his law practice or his philosophical interests rested; Charles remarked quietly to himself that some of these would certainly have him arrested for sedition, Voltaire, Diderot, Kant, and the newly minted Comte. Walking carefully across the floor he approached his father, hat in hand and halfed bowed to him, making a sound in the back of his throat.

Heinrich immediately dropped the paper, folding it and placing it in his lap in a swift movement of his hands. He looked like much the mirror of Charles, but aged. His face had widened and skin loosened. He wore a thick beard and the old man's hair had thinned and receded back across his face. A pair of wire-thin spectacles sat on his nose. He looked up coldly at his son in the cool blue light of high-noon and invited him to sit in a nearby chair. Charles took an immediate seat, holding his hat in his lap to fuss with the brim as he did, anxiously looking away from his father, only to immediately realize he was and to look at him.

Half raising the paper to look at a article discussing the state of Charles X, and to announce a run of paper bans in Paris he asked distractedly, “How are your studies?”

Charles fumbled, “They are...” he began.

“I don't need you to lie.” Heinrich said, “How are your grades? Just say it.”

“Well... They could be better.”

“Oh yes, indeed. They well could be.”

Charles sat quiet. Heinrich as well. Neither spoke and waited for the other to speak. Charles for his part not wanting to indict himself. His father waiting for him to make an admission. But at last it needed to be said and in a low booming voice Heinrich said, “I am preparing to send Louis to school and I hope he will not develop the same problems in society as you have done. He is already, compared to you a far better pupil in the public schools. I am complimented daily on the quality of his studiousness. Even the rabbi complements him when Henriette takes him in, he knows Yiddish well. Charles, do you remember even a speck of it?”

”Zhiker” Charles responded, naturally

“Henriette has already a fine husband waiting back in the old town, back in Trier. A fine young man of your age, just a little older, studies well in Bonn. And what do I have? What do I have but a son who spends his time drinking in Metz when he should be studying! You started so well, but I get monthly concerns from the professors, 'my dear Monsieur Levi, you detect in your son an untapped brilliance and capability, but daily he fails to meet those expectations and can not keep pace. We fear it is the drink.” he exclaimed, holding his hands up to the heavens as if to beseech God. “Do you have anything to say for yourself? To defend yourself here?”

Charles sat defenseless, his eyes downcast and away from his father. He continued, “I spend on you up to eight hundred francs a month on your education, room, board, tuition, your general living expenses. At the whole I imagine the wealthiest of the department don't spend more than five hundred francs a month on their children when they send them off. At the rate you spend, in this state of the economy, you alone will fast bankrupt us. If you have nothing to say for yourself I do not believe there is any way I can save you here in Metz. Before you send the family into ruin on your drunken escapades in the city a change of life has to be made. I am forced to consider you for the army, or to seek another option.”

Charles' attention was gripped by this, “Please, not the army!” he begged.

“I figured as much” Heinrich said

“I don't know if there is any way I can say it that has your confidence,” Charles finally began, “But I enjoy my studies greatly. I enjoy the academy, the fulfillment of the education and the lively academia. I do wish to graduate and to make something of myself in the future. In the army I would just be a no body, I would go from one grueling deployment in Algeria to another being the whipping boy of the noble above me. And were I to win a career there, how am I to rise any further than a simple petty officer when the nobility now has such a monopoly on the upper ranks? I will not be able to rise and do right by you and your honor as a father's son. I implore you to consider an alternative than to surrender me to the army.”

“Yes, but the army at the least will feed and board you and clothe you. It is in their ability to do that for all the soldiers. And perhaps you might make a sound artillery officer or a good square infantryman there. A sure place for you. Why not?”

“Because is the goal to not make me a partner of yours in the office?”

“Hardly a thing that will happen if you are to study poetry!” Heinrich scoffed, “At the least study numbers and do accounting if not to study law, as I demand of you. But on into your second year and it's still all poetry and fiction. Are you not better than that?”

“I am better than that!” Charles pleaded.

Heinrich scoffed, leaning back in his chair. In the corner a sound could be heard, the bending of a floor board. Charles glanced over to see his moth, tall and blonde like a proper Dutch woman, but her face homely a gray, as a Hebrew wife. She smiled patiently at him as she dried her hands in her apron but said nothing of the conversation.

“Then how many chances does a father need to extend to his son?”

Charles was hit with a profound and existential demand of him. In a flash he recognized in the tone alone that the wrong answer would end this exchange in the worst way for him, to be cut off from his father's allowance and shutter his academic career, “One more, may I have one more?” he pleaded.

Heinrich chewed on his tongue as he thought it over. And then nodded sagely and relaxed in his chair. “I thought as much.” he said, rising somewhat off the cushion as he reached behind him. He produced a crumpled envelope and passed it to his son. Charles took it, and looked down at it curiously, hesitantly holding a hand up as his hat dropped to the floor before stopping thinking he should not open it here and yet.

“No, no. Open it.” Heinrich invited, Charles did so and produced a sheet of paper.

“Since last winter I corresponded with friends of ours in Germany and Prussia and managed to secure a position for you to continue your studies in Berlin. It is clear that Metz is so far too liberal for you, as I feared Paris would be; let alone expensive. It took a lot of patient negotiation and planning. But on your behalf I enrolled you in the study of law there. I am hoping that under the watchful eye of the Prussians you will find some discipline within you to do your father proud. Afterwards, you can return and apprentice under me and you may take the bar. This is a longer gambit, but one that I pensively hope you can do.”

Charles looked up, ”Berlin, wirklick?”

”Ja, es ist weit weg. Aber ich bin sicher, dass du es akzeptabel findest – dass ich es akzeptable finde.”

“But, would it be incompatible?” Charles asked, in French.

“Napoleon saw to it that it wouldn't. That I am sure of. The House of Hohenzollern certainly would not be able to do that no matter how much they try. I ask only you limit your drinking. I will only be supplying you an appropriate stipend of 400 francs a month this time, I will not answer any requests for more money. If you need more money, I fully expect you to find a way to make it yourself. Please, do not embarrass me. I have my good name on this adventure, do not let it destroy the family.”

Charles was joyous at the prospect. Or rather he thought he should. But also the idea of going to Prussia for this filled him with a sense of dread and emptiness. It would have been much more liberating to go to Paris and partake in all the activity there. But Berlin? It was a backwater city in comparison he felt, what could he find there that would keep him busy in his idleness. But perhaps that was part of the plan, he imagined. Never the less, he swallowed his pride. “I see your point, I have no reason to reject it. To Berlin I will go.”

Heinrich smiled, his face filled with relief, and the otherwise dour darkness that had filled his expression faded and with it the entire room itself seemed to go brighter, “My child you do a father proud. Perhaps if you turn out well I will have to send the rest of my children to Berlin.” he said with a laugh.

Turning to his wife who had stayed lingering in the corner, in the threshold to the kitchen and the living room he asked, “Do we have anything to eat? I believe at the least we should celebrate the wisdom of the folly of youth?”

“I can see what we have.” she said in her thick Dutch accent, she had never fully rid herself of it, and at times would have to communicate in Yiddish to simply get through to her husband and children.

“Excellent.” Heinrich proclaimed, standing. Suddenly he stopped and remembered something, “You'll have to rent a carriage, I've arranged this already,” he said absent mindedly as he turned to his side-table to look for something, “Which means you will have plenty of time.” He pulled a book from the stack, the small volume of Comte, “Have you read this?” he asked.

“No.” Charles said

“Then you will have time.” he said with a smile, “Just make sure it's hidden, of course. The Prussian police I imagine won't be sentimental to this sort of writing. If they know at least enough French. I am impartial, but he has only just begun printing on the secret presses. Hard to find, unless you know where to look. The King's ministers like to suppress this sort of work. So of course never take it to Paris. But you should be fine in Berlin.”

Charles Levi flipped through the pages and absently played with the book, “I don't know if I should give you my old legal notes at all, if those will help. I so do want to help on this renewed lease on life. They are so hard to come by.”

The Ghosts of Napoleon

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>

Technically, yes. Saxony was folded into Prussia in this timeline as well, right?

@Letter Bee

If you can give a good reason for it to be either or, so it shall be. All the German states aren't going to be on the map because fuck that

The Ghosts of Napoleon

@Letter Bee

Technically, Bavaria is taken