Dion

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

@Chrononaut I don't think that the game is popular enough for this to be a major blow. Especially considering that the developers started bad mouthing him on private accounts after it happened.

I mean, if you're hiring a youtube-celebrity so you have a wider reach and some famous name attached to your game, you shouldn't be one to then go and badmouth him later on. That's just bad sportsmanship. So yes, I do consider it sort of unfair. Not that he got dropped from the game. It's not even about what he said for me to find him being dropped reasonable. There was just a large amount of shit stirred up over this so naturally you'd question 'is this guy worth it?'

I do find it unfair that the developers then started insulting him personally. That's kinda shitty.

And you make it seem like you don't think immigration is an important political issue and/or topic. It's not important to you?

It's important to me. Why isn't it important to you? Personally I think immigration is something we should be very worried about, especially in Europe, given our immigration projects have failed immensely and there are very few cultural groups that have integrated perfectly (and those are, believe it or not, mostly European cultures). Others either segregate themselves (Asians, South Americans) or are constantly a source for scandals (Arabs, Africans).

You'd rather ignore those issues because they're not legitimate, or..?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be passionate about immigration. If you're doing it for the right reasons. From what Jontron has said I can't say he's doing it for the right reasons or not. But concern about, for instance, the demographic is... a very legitimate concern, I think.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

@Chrononaut You'd be making a fair point if it weren't for the fact that JonTron totally understood being pulled from the game and all he had to add to that was 'I understand the decision'. It's not him that went apeshit. Action reaction. He understands this.

I'm still not convinced that JonTron is a racist in the emotional sense. I'm not convinced that he thinks blacks are inferior. I think he makes a distinction between races based on things he considers facts. Whether those are facts or not in reality matters little because he believes them to be.

Doesn't make him a bad person IMHO.

But yeah we could say that he's a racist purely because he makes that distinction.

And I am also sure that he wouldn't have said this in 'a working environment' like an office because he's not stupid and/or retarded. But unluckily for those that are mad at him, he doesn't work in a standard working environment, but rather has made his platform into his job. That's not really his fault.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

I realize it may have been a bit misleading when I said everyone is afraid of being called racist. Obviously there are always going to be exceptions to the rules. When I meant everyone, I meant "The vast majority of people I have come in contact with." Which does not include anomalies like you, those radio personalities, etc.

@BrokenPromise

Ehhhh. Depends. In the past, I wouldn't have appreciated if people called me racist because I know that they call me that entirely on their perception of racism + emotional reaction. That they find me to be racist does not equate me actually being a racist (in the terms that they use it in).

It's like... there are 2 definitions for racism. A textbook definition - and an emotional/subjective definition.

But nowadays I have found that when I get called racist, sexist, or anything like that, it's a delegitimization attempt/strategy (a pretty good one). When you call someone racist, then their views are automatically disregarded, because if they are then their point is base on the hate of an entire group of people.

Hence when I look at JonTron's views, all I see is him saying things. Calling him a racist won't change the things he's saying but it only delegitimizes them under false pretenses (emotions, not arguments).

So, by now, if someone says I am racist, I just agree. Fuck yeah I'm racist. I see tribes of people. It's human nature. It's up to you yourself to challenge that and overcome it - and yes that includes black people who want to segregate themselves, and yes it includes white people who don't acknowledge that in the US there might be systematic ways where black people have a harder time doing things.

But people don't want that because challenging yourself is hard and blaming others is easy.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

Oh, no, I'm definitely racist. I believe in tribalism. I also believe in making a conscious effort to overcome tribalism. Doesn't mean I don't acknowledge it exists within me, and that it can be useful.

So yes, racism can be useful at times (mostly historic) but more often than not isn't useful at all.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

1 Wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites, that's a fact.

2 What is so offensive about white people saying they'd like to preserve their demographic majority?

3 It's clear that whites are not allowed to speak up against their demographic um... oblivion.

4 Do you consider the european colonisation of Africa a bad thing? (Destiny replies that it's complicated). It's only complicated because it's whites.

5 When white people are aggressed against in their own nations by people that are not white, they are told constantly, check your privilege. You colonised us, you owe us this land blah blah blah.

6 We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land.

7 But if they assimilated they would enter the gene pool eventually...

Now apart from 7 none of these quotes are explicitly racist but it all points in the direction of white nationalist talking points. Now if you listen to the debate it seems like he has come upon this info fairly recently and possibly hasnt thought it through.

@Dynamo Frokane

I'll just start by saying I have absolutely no interest in JonTron, I don't think he is funny, and the only possible sentiment I have towards him is that I am glad that he is speaking up about his views because I hate it when people force their own ideology onto a youtuber without thinking (expecting a youtuber to vote a or b for some reason).

I just wanted to say that none of these 7 things are really racist not white supremacy related.

I don't know if wealthy blacks commit more crimes than blacks, but if it's true, then nothing is wrong with stating it. (That said this would go against, well, most criminological theories that exist and thus would be quite.. ground breaking.)

I don't think that there really is a white genocide or anything hysterically conspiracy theory-like like that but I think it's fair that white people (especially in Europe, I don't think Americans have any reason for concern) are concerned for the demographics of their countries. I don't think that equates white supremacy. I don't even think it really involves race more so than culture.

The colonisation thing isn't even worth commenting on, both answers (yes it's bad, no it's good) are idiotic because it's history. At that point in time it was considered normal, it was simply survival of the fittest and/or a colonizers world. Fact of the matter is that it happened, that is the single most important answer, whether it is good or not is up to the beholder and you will never be able to convince others that it's good or bad purely because both sides have adequate and good arguments to support their opinion.

long rant about history

You could consider it unfair that a technologically advanced people like the Europeans conquered tribes of 'relatively primitive' Africans and I would agree that it was a one sided battle all the way through, but there is a historical reasoning for this (the same reasoning you'll find as to why eastern-Europe is the shitty part of Europe (hell there's a reason we call Slavs Slavs, and it's not because we hired them for their services), why Northern-Europeans didn't colonize shit, and why we were so good at advancing technology.

Location location location. Nothing grows in Africa, to the point where you wonder every day if your crops will survive the night. There was no time to establish a working order of farmers -> artisans -> clergy -> nobles. There was a rough order but not on the same scale as in Europe. It's the same reason why Egypt thrived while the areas around them were just.. arid wastelands. Location.

Now in Europe, the climate is specifically capable of maintaining large populations, which means that you only need x amount of farmers to sustain y population. The numbers are in favor of the Europeans here more than the Africans, so the European population grew quicker than that in Africa, meaning that more people could become workers and not farmers, meaning that more goods were produced, etc.

This went on to the point where for Western European countries it became cheaper to buy wheat in Poland than to make it themselves (which was the turning point of economies in the west) which enabled farmers to produce goods solely for profit, not for sustenance (meaning we started growing money-crops).

The collective sum of all these favors in light of our position meant that we were more advanced and thus more capable of taking on primitives.

Similarly, nothing grew in Scandinavia (only Denmark, and the land there was barely workable) so they were similar to the Africans 'primitive' until they were more or less forcibly westernized by the Christians. Still, the lands were kinda bad, and there wasn't a large population, hence there was no real ability to colonize.

Whether colonization is good or bad is a question you can ask yourself, but something that is irrefutably historically true is that, in light of our capability AND the ethical views on colonization, it made sense, and will always make sense within that timeframe.

As for 5, well, yes. But I don't really think this is supremacy either. And it's hard to argue that it's not been true in the past. The only thing I would remark is that I'm not sure if it happens in the amounts he's trying to portray it as. I don't have any problems believing one way or the other. Still, is it really racist? Or even hinting at racism? Supremacy? Not at all.

6, well, maybe in Europe, we've done our part. As for America, lol, this is just objectively not true, but still not really something I consider racist. I wonder what his motivations are for thinking this.

7 is just a truth. The implication might hint at some supremacy thing, but I'd have to hear the full sentence for that. Still, if they assimilated, they would enter the gene pool... is that not true? It makes sense to me.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@Dynamo Frokane 1. agree

2. eh, i mean, i'm not really aware of the hate she got. people probably did take it too far, but you know, i'm not really interested in hate campaigns nor am i passionate enough about ME:A (because I knew it'd be a shit game for my tastes) to go on a tangent to this woman, so I didn't follow it well enough to be able to tell.

3. AFAIK they used an algorithm to make most of the cutscenes facial animations, and then did manual 'touch up' by hand on the priority scenes (main story). That means there are some scenes that had a low priority that were probably never even touched by hand. That's what I read from an animators comments on this game, who worked on ME previously. It's a shitty way to animate a game that costs so much money and is a triple A title but hey, it's how it is.

4. nah he wasn't dogpiled, but there were certainly moments where I felt people ignored his arguments because they didn't have the answers to what he was saying. it's a common thing, it's natural. I think that, given the people involved in the game, it's likely that there was some reason for them hiring specific people (like Manveer, like the animation lady) but I don't really think I want to comment on that mostly because I don't care that much about who they hire, I care about the end product.

I'm not sure if the shitty end product (it's a decent game, but from a AAA title I'm not expecting decent but amazing) is a result of that hiring process or not, and I can't figure out how we can even test that, but I have my doubts that their team was the most efficient. Not sure why that would be though.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@Vilageidiotx I'll start by cleansing Overwatch. Tracer may be fast but she can't hide from my gorilla-kin character forever. The real question is, what will be our 'Kristallnacht' equivalent.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

no thread about lgbt in gaming can be complete if i dont put in my two cents

here goes

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

DONT HIRE COSPLAYING WOMEN TO BE LEAD ANIMATORS IF THEY HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH MAKING VIDEOGAMES
DONT HIRE DEVELOPERS THAT TWEET ABOUT HATING WHITE PEOPLE
DONT BE A DICK IN GENERAL

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

The integration of LGBT people in Mass Effect Andromeda is laughable at best. My critique has nothing to do with their presence and everything to do with how poorly they were written in, which was lazily done and hinted purely at virtue signalling which I disagree with on principle.

Also Pugbutter made very good points and you guys seemed to ignore them on purpose but you guys all made good points too

there



hmmmm, actually, might be unexperienced or just a liar.... you decide

Ｒｏｌｅｐｌａｙｅｒ＇ｓ Ｖａｌｈａｌｌａ － Ｂｕｄｄｈａ＇ｓ Ｉｎｔｅｒｅｓｔ Ｃｈｅｃｋ － Ｏｒｉｇｉｎａｌ ａｎｄ Ｉｎｓｐｉｒｅｄ Ｒｏｌｅｐｌａｙｓ

Mater from Cars X Rand Paul Yaoi RP (NSFW)

wow way to mislead people

fake news fake 1x1
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