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@Cyclone

I don't understand the symbology behind the distinction you're trying to make.


The symbology is just to represent distance. The big difference is what is part of Galbar and what is part of the sphere, meaning Galbar has a Sky and an Underground and these cannot be the sphere of Air and Earth as Aristotle says.
@Crispy Octopus

The problem with that proposal is that some spheres have been described as a planet, including the sun and the moon, and overall, with the way spheres work, it won't make any sense.

Say the god of the sphere of the sky is isolationist, but the god who has a magical forest planet and the god of war who has a great arena battleground for a realm are active and constantly connecting with the earth. This is your new order



Does this mean the sphere they saw before as some distant planet is now right above their heads and covering the sky?
Hell, what happens if the sphere of the sun gets closer than the sky?
<Snipped quote by Double Capybara>

Since one appeal is that everyone can design their own Sphere to be the source of its own 'magic' and have its own effect, I think forcing sweeping things like this to be the case would be detrimental even if they help unify the Upper/Lower Spheres thematically.


Ok, so you can make a sphere without regards to whether it's celestial or chthonic? In the last post, you mentioned wanting a strong thematic difference, so I kinda assumed picking Celestial or Chthonic was not trivial.

<Snipped quote>

I'm interpreting this as you saying that examples are warranted, yes? I intend to add quite a bit to the Doc today and could give 5 or 6 such examples.


Definitely, I think an example model will do wonders.

<Snipped quote>

See, what you say about trees is due to one very poor example that I gave. The example in question was a forest god's Sphere perhaps being the upper canopy of some jungles, but back a page or two age when we chose to go with option B we more or less killed the idea of ta forest god having a Sphere like that. It's just too accessible, too tangible, too real. As the Spheres are partially metaphysical and magical places, that's why I think BBeast gave really good examples with the sky god's Sphere being the upper sky but great storms making it hard for just anything to fly up, and the dirt god having a Sphere that's underground but can only be reached by digging a long, long ways beneath some sacred hills.

To clarify, in keeping with the theme of Spheres being very magical places that are hard for mortals to access, I don't want someone to just claim "deserts on Galbar's surface" or "the rivers on Galbar" as their Sphere. Something more along the lines of the desert god having the sun (or perhaps some fiery subterranean realm) as his Sphere and then connecting it into the depths of deserts through some sort of portal is more of what we're going for. Instead of just claiming rivers as his Sphere, a river god could do something like claim the subterranean depths where all springs draw their water from.

Do you think that I addressed your confusions/objections adequately, Capy?


I think the main source of confusion on my part is the difference between the proposal and the linked Celestial Spheres.

In aristotelian, it kinda goes like this

[The sky (sphere of air]
[Galbar]
[The earth (sphere of earth)]

From what I understood of the proposal, it is not a layered cake deal, it is more like

(Sphere of air)


[Galbar - including the sky, which is the influence of the sphere of air, and the earth, which is the influence of the sphere of earth]


(Sphere of earth)

Which I would say is a more Dungeons and Dragons Planes thing? But then wouldn't that not be physical but instead purely magical?
@BBeast

I think a big theme in your post, and one that I think is misguided, is to see the difference between upper and lower as a physical difference. It is a thematic difference, and I think treating each sphere as a formless blob with no content is detrimental.

Take magic.

Celestial magical sphere: Linked to stars and the sky, maybe be related to the movement of the stars, the time of the day, definitely related to the "star" that is how Galbarian mortals see the sphere.

Chthonic magical sphere: Related to earth, likely more telluric in nature, if a mage in the former case would raise his hand to reach for the magical realm, this one needs to connect with that which is bellow, walking bare-feet, channeling magic through the body, whatever.

Take soul

Celestial soul sphere: Probably Heaven or Valhalla like, angels and Valkyries, sky burials and funeral pyres

Chthonic soul sphere: Hades for example, boatman and reapers, crypts and graves.

There is a big change, and that goes beyond portals and physical place.

@Cyclone

One thing I expected in the docs, but couldn't really find, is a model of what you are thinking. With examples, models, something like a few example spheres and how they interact. It clearly isn't the Aristotlean model what we are doing here, there is a weird mix of Aristotles like layer spheres and orb spheres, and each time these things are discussed, I go out of it knowing less and less, with mixed messages like "There are no exceptions except the exceptions"

The disadvantage of the Galbaric Middle is that it introduces significantly more complexity to an already potentially confusing system. Having a divide between the Upper/Lower gods along the lines of the Aesir and Vanir, Aedra/Daedra, or any other example was a topic I found intriguing and was a primary reason behind me conceptualizing the distinction. Where would the middle gods under Galbaric Middle fit into this? Would they be neutral and of neither side? That might make the whole thing less thematic, but then again, I expect that some gods won't really see the universe in such a divisive way and won't care so much about exactly where any other given god lives so much as what said other god does.


It is better to have a complex system that deals with its issues than a nebulous unclear system. I think if you want a strong thematic difference between Celestial and Chthonic, you need to at least state that and what you overall view on what is Upper and what is lower. Once the themes are put on the table, we can discuss them properly.

Speaking of which, I still think land gods are a problem, from what I see, the Chthonic realm is way too limited, and throwing trees to the sky because of canopies is... eh. I don't know crap about the nordic myths since I found them boring, but in terms of Aedra/Deadra, all Aedra would be Celestial, and... most of the Deadra as well, since they are outer gods, Azura, Clavicus, Hircine, Vaermina.

It also makes the metaphysical maps of the world weird, with the realm of rives, trees and the fairyland all side by the side with sun, with the stars. It makes sense in a world like Tamriel where all worlds are outer worlds, but is this what we are going for here? Weren't we going with Aristotlean layers, with a realm of wind, a realm of fire?

We need to have a guide, a base, we can't have cake if the invitation says "bring ingredients for pastry, maybe?"

Then we can decide what to do about connections, if we are to have a separate mini realm of the skies or have it be the layer which we call the sky. What to do about land gods, what differs the underworld from the upperworlds.
@Scarifar Hmm? Who has light?
<Snipped quote by Cyclone>

Ninja'd!

In that case, I'm going to throw my hat into option B. I don't see why a god should be linked strictly to Galbar as a sphere when their sphere could still be linked closely to a physical aspect of Galbar, such as forests or wildlands.

And just because a sphere like that isn't so accessible, it doesn't restrict you from finding ways for inter-sphere travel to happen thematically. If a little girl gets lost in the woods, you can easily fudge together her unnoticed stumbling into the sphere of forest god by mere chance and then having a hell of a time finding her way home, all the while the rangers of the previous woods having no idea where she disappeared to. Any other contrivance can be made to facilitate stories.


Wait, so even with option B you can still make spheres exactly like option A and C? I thought B meant a ban on the 'fairyland' non-euclidean sphere, going from Octopus' posts and the whole 'no middle sphere' allowed.
<Snipped quote by The WIP sphere rules in the doc>

Is there a reason why a more earthly sphere cannot take the above caveat and just pick whether it's more celestial or cthonic?


To me, this created an unclear middle and in the end its all the same thing. Allowing the non-euclidian 'fairyland' will lead to the exact same thing as land realms, and even if the fairyland is banned, three might later and it will be the exact same but it is now an orb up the sky or something. And that is kinda the gist of this thing, in the end, its all wording and aesthetics I guess. This discussion feels silly without more examples of spheres from other players, and I guess it was only ever an issue to me because I always liked me some land gods, lol, and in turn, to leave the celestial realm to gods that feel celestial instead of river and tree gods.
Snip


The problem is that Divinus does not follow a Cosmological line of birth like traditional Mythologies. You don't have that neat line of Cosmo God -> Sky God / Earth Goddess -> Thunder God, Ocean God, Sky God, Sun god, Moon Goddess...

You have people starting out as gods of realms that have yet to exist. Gods of life, of craftsmen, of rivers, of technology, of trade. Your idea kinda leans towards everyone starting with primordial realms but that is not what the players have done so far, unless that is what we are to do in Mk3
What is the point of stopping gods who want to have closer realms to have closer realms? I feel like this does step on the feet of anyone who will have land-based spheres (which again, are just not that well covered in Greek Myth), which yeah, include me. This was my idea for a realm:



I can adapt to a heavenly realm if necessary, I did have a secondary idea involving stars and some leftover Ilunabar stuff, but I feel this would inhibit the potential of land/earth realms and would be to the detriment of the game.

Of the options presented, I would go with C, as that is an aspect present in the source of what we are doing, with things below the moon acting differently to things above it.

<Snipped quote by Cyclone>

I don't like that honestly, because travel between spheres is supposed to be hard right? If a gods sphere is like a foot below the surface any joe with a shovel is digging into a gods sphere.

I think it should be basically impossible to physically tunnel into lower spheres or fly to upper ones. We know there are overlapping spheres so I'd almost rather double down on that than deal with the headache of spheres a foot below the ground.


I'd say that is relevant to the distance between the spheres. In Aristotlean's stuff, everything below the moon (air and fire) are more reachable than everything up in the stars. Perhaps dividing it in four areas overall, with an upper celestial (stars and sun and stuff) lower celestial (wind and thunder and maybe the moon and stuff) upper chthonic (forests and rivers and shadows and stuff) and lower chthonic (underworld and magma and Cthulhu and stuff), indicating closeness to Galbar and ease of mortal access, could work?
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