Meiyuuhi

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Ok @Mihndar, sent a pm back with my first draft.

:)

@Isotope

I responded, Istoope.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Misspelled. Every time.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Oh god too many South America apps my head hurts INVADE THEM ALL

Still here, still trying to finish this post if I can scrounge up the time.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Heylo, back. Almost finished writing an IC post, should happen by the end of the day, I just need to rendezvous with Byrd. In regards to the SAC question, it's basically a free trade area and cooperation agreement and we have a headquarters in Quito, Ecuador where we can talk about South American stuff. Nothing really there to flagrantly violate. And considering Brazil's already quite socialist really the only person you'll be messing with is Byrd, if you try to go that route. In regards to the Hunger Games thing, hey come on, there's an easily available drawing of Claro that you made yourself. I joined the Diplomacy game as well. Turkey ftw~

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

<Snipped quote by Mihndar> Like said, Japan had a larger economy because of US intervention. Also, Hou isn't necessarily Mao so Deng's reforms might not have happened simply because they were never necessary.

@Vilageidiotx

But they also wouldn't have been devastated during World War 2, so to some degree those would have canceled out. And it seems a bit dubious to me that China could have industrialized several times faster in order to match.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Though I'll concede that the population of people reconciled to the government would be small, I still think that the natural resources afforded by Indonesia and whatever other possessions they might have would bolster Japan's economic growth, and considering Japan had a larger economy than China all the way until the 2000s (and that's even with Deng's reforms, which presumably would not happen in this universe) they would still have an industrial capacity to outproduce them in terms of war assets even if they can't match their army in terms of numbers. And that industrial capacity would be primarily geared towards military production, unlike in modern-day Japan.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

<Snipped quote by Mihndar> I'm sure that's what the Turks told themselves again and again during their occupation of Armenian territory. Or even Kurdish. Nationalism isn't that easily breed out over generations. Especially if you're two different peoples. Modern nationalism doesn't just leave the mindset of a people when a generation or two passes in or out of the social framework. If anything, it'd get passed down from one generation to another. Because that's their identity. And identity is important. Tribe is important. And Japan is all about their tribe and the Japanese. Not the Indonesians or the Koreans. It's all for the make benefit of them and the Japanese imperial institution would have been well built for that way of thinking. The Emperor is a God. And the Japanese are the people of that God. Everyone else is not. Besides, the dutch had been fighting Indonesian nationalism for a long time before Japan no doubt seized the islands. Though the Japanese may have used these nationalists to overthrow the Dutch and get themselves in it was never a serious commitment to favor the Indonesians. Any attempts at seizing this or acting out wouldn't be acted to kindly. And then all of a sudden there's a cycle of violence in the region much like Isreal-Palestine. Or modern Xinjiang with one side trying to get a head on the other, and the other being seriously offended and violent. They would not be loyal. Not until they all die. And then there goes the 150 million.

@Dinh AaronMk

No, they of course wouldn't all be loyal. Far be it for me to say that. But if after a year of Nazi occupation many people were already joining the ranks of the collaborators, after forty years the number of people reconciled to the Empire would have continued to rise, even more so if it remained stable unlike the collapsing Ottoman one. Japanese populations could be making inroads into the islands, and people could have been assimilated depending on the country's policies. The reasons for this reconcilement could be many and varied, ranging from simple recognition of the reality of power to a fear of Communism and belief that only a united Japanese Empire can stand against it. The propaganda perpetuated by such a fascist regime would have likely militarized many non-Japanese people against the perceived threat. And it's important to recognize that some countries are like Finland, while other countries are like Kazakhstan. Not every nationality is as rebellious as the next, and Indonesia is hardly homogenous culturally.

<Snipped quote by Mihndar> That's not quite how nationalism works, I am afraid. Your argument about populations would be true if this was a thousand years ago, but national identity erases this. Koreans are still Koreans, and they will be very aware of this. You also have to remember that Japan was never a benevolent conqueror, and it is doubtable that they have been kind to even the new generation. And your representation of the way war works is not... actually how war works. To wage an industrial war, you have to have the industry. This was always Japans biggest problem in the early days, and a major factor in the history of their real world Empire. Pearl Harbor was not an attempt to conquer the United States. Not even an attempt to conquer Hawaii. Rather, Pearl Harbor was the desperate attempt by the Japanese to destroy the US Pacific Fleet so that they could bring a quick end to a Pacific War. They did this because the US refused to sell them oil and they needed to take Dutch Indonesia or else risk being unable to fuel their economy. And they used that strategy specifically because they knew that, once the war started, the US industry would destroy theirs. Remember that Japan is a tiny rocky island, that their Empire was what allowed them to industrialize, and that their modern industrialization is related more to their relationship with the US after the war than it is anything innate within their culture. Case in point, when China finally industrialized their economy dwarfed Japans pretty quickly. A Japanese War with China would much like their war with the US in our time. A few quick victories around the coast followed by slow economic collapse as China headbutts them into the ground. ...and also, if NRP's have taught me anything, it is that most people seem to think war is just a bunch of aircraft carriers.

@Vilageidiotx

I'm hardly an expert, so I'll take your word for it on the war topic. Though I would posit that Japan's economy would still be comparable to China's, considering in the real world it took them until the 2000s to do just what you say, with all of the benefits that affords them. Your comparison would be entirely accurate if China was the United States, but as it would stand in the 1980s China would still have a smaller economy than Japan, unless Aaron has somehow ensured economic growth four or five times larger than that engineered under Maoism.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

<Snipped quote by Mihndar> I doubt the Koreans or the Indonesians would be at all loyal to the Japanese, or only really love themselves. The native populations wouldn't really want to support them voluntarily and the ashkaris they could pull from the islands wouldn't be worth much. Not to mention Australia is basically a whole lot of nothing and full of people even more opposite to the Japanese culture than the Koreans being raped or the Indonesians. So attempting to take Australia would just mean a lot of prolonged police work as well as attracting the ire of Britain, since Australia wants to and is trying to, or already has joined the Commonwealth. So they got some political protection there. China as well would have it support from parties in the International. And since they'd act independently then they're not coming on Beijing's orders. Aggression on mainland Asia would also most likely attract universal ire from the Asian bloc who'd have enough power in the International Politburo to all declare war on Japan. They may not be able to contribute naval assets, but they could the land assets needed to turn a landing into a proper meat grinder while mainland Japan is burned from 30,000 meters.

@Dinh AaronMk

Considering they've been under Japanese domination for forty-odd years, an entire new generation would have grown up that knows nothing of the pre-Japanese days and frankly probably wouldn't care nearly so much. This new population, containing almost all of the soldier-age population, would be significantly more loyal to the Empire than the older generation that remembers. There's no guarantee they wouldn't have significant enough air assets and potentially aircraft carriers to both fend off any stuff you send off at them but also place pressure on your forces attempting to contain their landings. Naval forces bombarding your coast and air support combined could easily turn your defensive line into as much of a meat grinder as their landing area. A quasi-fascist state would have invested much more of its power into building these assets than an isolationist China, bolstered as it may be by the other bloc members.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Well, they could take over Australia. That might provide them with significantly more resources and manpower to better be able to fight China if it comes down to it. And it's not like dealing with rowdy foreigners they have conquered is new to them. And also keep in mind Indonesia's population alone in 1980 is 150 million. Throw in Japan and South Korea, you've doubled that and you still haven't gotten to Papua New Guinea and whatever else they might own in the Pacific. Japan's military power would be nothing to sneeze at, considering they both industrialized before China and they have the numbers to at least compete, being around a 2:1 ratio without the massive population boom associated with Maoism. So no, they probably couldn't defeat China but it would hardly be a smashing defeat.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Join the glorious American Isolationist Squadron.