AkiBlue said
I don't necessarily believe the "subtypes" would necessarily need a chapter to themselves. I see it more as Chapter One: What is Roleplaying? - Definition 1.1 - Different types like LARPing1.2 - Different types like Text BasedEtc, etcIt coul just branch off chapter one instead of giving EACH little thing a chapter of its own. And the Units I pictured more like: Unit One: Fundamentals of Roleplaying (what it is)Unit Two: Maybe something like Character Sheets and such And so forth and so forth.

I like the almost chronological approach you imply here:

A total newbie sees a roleplay, and their first thought is gonna be WTF. A unit explains this.
Next? How do they get involved? A unit explains this: GM-player relationships and formalities, the process of CS's
Next? How do they write a post? A unit explains this: writing conventions, typical rules and courtesies, approaches (to meta-game or not to meta-game)
Next? How do they interact with other players and push the story on? A unit explains this, etc

Literally looking at the PbP chronological process and addressing each topic as it will unfold.

Clearly this is PbP-based (I presume - I have little concept of other RPing, as previously mentioned)

Jig said Being too academic runs the risk of making the guide an academic project rather than a useful one.

I can assure you that I have no problem being the one to tell you all when things need to be toned down. Which also falls along with why I suggested the approach I did. It's not so simplistic, but it is understandable along with the fact that people won't be intimidated by informative sections, whereas chapter after chapter they're more likely to back away and not read it.

I for one would welcome such a thing, whilst I'm not as knowledgeable as others I'd certainly would like to see this progress.

AkiBlue said
Why not...Why not combined it and have the ultimate guide? The insight you have will be beneficial for everyone~

My insight will basically grind down to the following.

#1: The Five Minute Rule. If it can't be understood in five minutes, people won't read it. (So for especially dense concepts, the idea of "tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them what you told them you'd tell them, tell them what you just told them" will be a sacred thing.) General rule of thumb: Average readers get through about 200 words per minute. So try to aim for no more than 1,000 words per concept.

#2: Divide And Conquer. People are going to read the guide for a spray of different purposes: To learn about the basics of role playing, to learn about GMing, to learn about Players, and so on. Each "section" should be its own distinct entity, that being said...

#3: KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. The less categories and navigation the user has to get through, the better. Keep the language simple and blunt instead of flowery and colourful. If a sentence services no purpose, take it out back and shoot it. This is a guide, not a writing contest.

#4: RP-Guild centric. I RP here. The guide is being made from here. It should be made with this site specifically in mind. Going too generic will make the advice in turn too generic to apply anywhere specific.

#5: Avoid elitism. Keep the tone humble and inviting, uplifting, and constructive. People in general do not respond well to authoritative tones no matter who it's coming from, especially the demographic that this guide is targeting/going to be viewed by. (ex: Where possible, avoid "you must do X" and say instead "this is a good way to do X". In fact, as a rule of thumb, if you're addressing the reader directly, unless it's to inspire them and make them feel good, the rule is "don't". Personal tones do not fit in something as formal as a guide.)

My own guide series is/was going to aim for a total of three guides: The first one on PbPRP that explains the processes to a bare bones minimum. The second one for players that dissects what characters are (tropes with TVTropes as a resource, explaining archetypes through group roles to hit two birds with one stone). The focus here would be to teach that motivation and skill acquisition are the main pillars of a biography, that group cohesion is vital. I was tempted to hit power levels but I wasn't sure if I should bother. The third one for GM's, which would be the largest subsequently, that would dissect and explain what a plot is and how to construct one, world building 101, and the basics of managing people. (Marketing, psychology, management. The third of which is something Prince would be specialized in thanks to his job.)

After that the plan was that if more information was necessary, a centralized index page would be created with the first three guides offered at the top as vital stuff. New guides would subsequently be "specialized modules" that would go underneath with a brief line explaining what it is that guide is hoping to teach. That way, people can get the information they want very quickly and then move on. Not everybody wants to learn how to be a GM, but they might want to understand in detail what every tool they can use in a post is. (Actions, Reactions, Narration, etc.)

tl;dr: The simpler and quicker users can navigate to the information they need, the more popular and successful the guide will be. If it's built like a game manual nobody will read it. If it's built like a game tutorial that procedurally tells players how to play by letting them explore for themselves, instead of feeling like they're being hit with a text book, they'll feel like they're voluntarily doing what it is they want to do. And that's most important here, because while the demographic may be students, they already have a ton of textbooks to get through in real life. They probably don't want more from the hobby they want to partake in.

EDIT

Oh, right, and the Index Page has the advantage that if others write neat, specialized guides that work well, I could very easily link them and credit them on a whim. Spreading good advice from a centralized location.

Apologies for the double post but this felt a bit chunky to try and infodump into an edit. I basically have the PbPRP guide skeleton done. At this point it's just editing, editing, editing, so I may as well show you what I mean by KISS and the Five Minute Rule since the PbPRP guide should be the epitome of that more than the other two.

Everything below is in what I've done thus far for the PbPRP guide. The doc version is 0.7 but it's probably closer to call it 0.8 since the base concepts are there, they just need butchering and redoing until it flows neatly and the concepts come out cleanly.

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Before you read: Keep in mind that this guide is made to explain what, precisely, PbPRP is, and how it works on Roleplayer Guild. This guide may not apply in its entirety to other websites or formats.

This is the first of what is planned to be three guides. This explains the basic fundamentals of role playing. The other two will focus on more advanced concepts for GM's and Players.

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What is PbPRP?

PbPRP is an acronym meaning “Play by Post Role Play”. Compare it to turn-based video games: Everyone takes a “turn” posting, it’s not live action like tabletop sessions (such as D&D around a physical table) or LARPing. PbPRP is often compared to collaborative writing and this is a fair and succinct description, so if you want to write stories with other people, you’ve come to the right place.

As for role playing, to role play is merely to play a role. In the case of PbPRP, this usually means either being the GM or a Player.

The GM is the person who runs the show: All the non-player characters, the world, and so on, are usually on the shoulders of this guy or gal alone to create for you to interact with. If you’re new to role playing, it’s best to stray away from this role until you see it in action to learn the intricacies of it through play. GM’s are nearly always the person who created the thread, and henceforth will be referred to as “Thread Owners”.

The Player is a person who usually creates one (or more) character(s) in a world created by a GM. [Too short, needs more.]

How do I play?

First, pick a category. Second, pick a role play or interest check that sounds neat to you. Third, fill out the character sheet. Fourth, start role playing!

Pick a category

On Roleplayer Guild we have the following categories to choose from: Free, Casual, Advanced, Arena, 1x1, Nation, and Tabletop. Keep in mind that if you’re new to role playing but have a solid grasp of the English language, you should probably try your luck in Casual. If you struggle with English, Free will be a better starting choice.

You can find the descriptions to the categories on the front page of Roleplayer Guild, beneath each category.

Pick a role play or interest check

Role Play: Browse through role plays by looking through a subforum, such as Casual. Role plays which don’t have many posts yet are usually still accepting players, but not always. You’ll notice when you click on a role play, that there are two tabs: OOC and IC. OOC is “Out Of Character”, this is where you talk with the other players and the Thread Owner, discuss potential characters, events going on in the role play, and so on. IC is “In Character”, this is where the story is collaboratively written by everyone involved in the role play.

In general, to join a role play, you read the plot. If the plot interests you, there is nearly always a character sheet to fill out in the first or second post of the OOC. Fill out all the required fields and post it in the OOC tab. When the Thread Owner approves you, you’re good to go to start role playing!

Interest Check: The Interest Checks subforum is a place where people post up threads seeing if anyone would be interested in role playing their story. This is a great place to window shop and pick a couple role plays out which interest you by simply posting your interest and asking when the main thread will go up. Keep an eye on it and when the Role Play thread goes up, submit a character sheet in the OOC and wait for the Thread Owner to approve you.

Fill out a character sheet

Most often, character sheets are structured in this format, though many variations exist. Never be afraid to ask the Thread Owner a question if something doesn’t make sense to you.

Name: Your character’s name.
Age: Your character’s age.
Gender: Your character’s gender. May or may not include sexuality.
Appearance: Your character’s appearance. Often people use pictures, some use text descriptions, some use a hybrid of both. It is up to you to figure out what you’re most comfortable with, but if you do use pictures from the Internet, be kind to the artist and leave a link to the web page you found it on.
History: Your character’s history. This is arguable the most important part of your character sheet, as it will often determine who your character is, why they are interested in resolving the conflict of the plot, and what skills they bring to the table. For instance, in a high school RP, it would be logical to write a character whose motivation in his history is to pass high school. In a high fantasy RP, where a dragon is terrorizing the land, it would be logical to write that your character wants revenge against the dragon for past sins committed against them.

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Now you know what role playing on a forum is: PbPRP, and you know how to join a role play. Have fun! (Needs more?)

I definitely think having a core "How do I get stuck in?" speed-guide is a good idea. When you get a video game, you throw the instructions out of the way as you get the disc out the box, tell the annoying tutorial level where it can stick its helpful advice, and it's only when you get slaughtered on the first boss that you start to look at what you're doing wrong.

I also totally agree with advice #2-5, but I think for a detailed guide in any one topic, going into detail is kind of the point. Leaving out important stuff for the sake of brevity results in missing information. For more basic guides, as you've shown above, the 1,000 mark is probably sufficient.

OT: Are you looking for advice on the What is PbPRP guide, btw?

I will answer replies in the chronological order I was given them with my retorts and input towards the suggestions and/or changes.

I don't necessarily believe the "subtypes" would necessarily need a chapter to themselves. I see it more as

Chapter One: What is Roleplaying?
- Definition
1.1 - Different types like LARPing
1.2 - Different types like Text Based
Etc, etc

It coul just branch off chapter one instead of giving EACH little thing a chapter of its own. And the Units I pictured more like:
Unit One: Fundamentals of Roleplaying (what it is)
Unit Two: Maybe something like Character Sheets and such
And so forth and so forth

A Unit is a set of chapters. In the system you describe, all you do is alter the structure that information is being divided up into. Stating Chapter 1.2: Subtypes of Text-Based, Chapter 1.3: Sub-types of System in terms of actual mechanics just change the distribution. Let me reiterate the structure I had in mind:

Index (including redirection to the Quick Start Guide)
- Preface
Unit 1 Roleplaying Foundation

Unit 2 Text-Based Roleplay

Unit 3 System-based Roleplay

Unit 4 ???

- Glossary
- Changelog

Your method overhauls the entire information distribution process I had in mind, Aki, and here's how. Using the method I had set forth, I intended to address all major forms of roleplay (not at once, mind you) using a core. The core would be set early and we would use it to create a strong sense of logic and consistency throughout the Guide. Now, I do understand the desire to consolidate chapters, but what you just described turns a Chapter into a Unit and Chapters into sub-Chapters, then alters the method by which they are categorized. Your Chapter One asks what is Roleplay then later in 1.2 states the different forms or LARP'ing and dose the same for text-based. In mine, those are entirely different Units, basically. I'm not for sure why you would organize it like that. If you think about it, putting every piece of information under one header like that defeats the purpose of categorizing it to begin with. That is the dated method of chronologically organizing information. Now, what we could do is label them 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 based on Unit and Chapter. That would save out on numbering and naming chapers, but I believe the overhaul you had in mind would devastate how the Guide was structure to a degree that it would require a whole new revamp. Now, I wouldn't mind that, but if we're revamping the Guide, I need far more input as to how.

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Jig, I have a reply to this preloaded, actually. It's something I considered a long time ago, and the answer it to is fairly straightforward. By using the terms and definitions we design, we can set forth a model that is so all-encompassing in its base form (ie, in the most universal form of it) that as a single roleplayer from any genre, they are in all technicality performing the defined action in some easily-interpreted way. In the fact of the very first definition, yours wouldn't apply to Tabletops or LARP'ing, but mine would. In general, mine can in some way be applied to nearly every form of roleplay or RPG. That is the distinct goal I had, and that is so that all information across the board will be consistent.

f I approach submitting content, which will inevitably be based on what I perceive RPing to be in my own specific way, and try to apply models to a definition that I don't necessarily feel is the most relevant or specific to that model, the application is going to feel laboured at best and potentially incomprehensible at worst

This is a great point, and it's the reason I said there would be several definitions for the same word. I'm actually going to bring this up at a later point in my reply to Brovo, but in short, we might have to adjust the definition for roleplay in a way that a) doesn't break the original definition and b) better describes what is actually happening in that type of roleplay. As for your Ivory Towers answer, I'm going to wait and address that as it will be best answered while I later address Brovo. It is actually in your over-lap statement that I want to continue on. If we change the definition of roleplay and what it is, we are doing so because it is defining something with more conditions. That's all it is.

From your recent post, you might think that RPs come in a small variety of neat, discrete types and each one can be nicely bottled-up and labelled. I'd be surprised if you agree

Actually, yes, that is what I believe. The lines might blur at times. So, what do we do? We look down at the objective nature of these types of roleplay and determine what makes them different, then BOLD that fuckin' line and run with it. Why? Because if we do that for all the different types of roleplay, we gain two advantages. One, even if roleplay is only different because of a set of standards (the different between Casual and Advanced), then we're making it our mission at that time to state those difference so that people understand what they are. Secondly, if we do that, we can make a community effort to allow experts in those specific subtypes to come in and be like our Guest Writer for them, thus pushing the collaborative effort of this. I would even note that his is an advantage Aki should note and take into consideration as to why I set up the structure as I did.

So, Jig, I will present my half-vague, all-encompassing definitions once we get past the preface. I will say, however, that this is a guidebook. And, on your topic of Individualism and Ownership, we will explain and define what those concepts are. How they should and if they should be used. What their literary and resource value consist of. I do understand where you're coming from, but here's a thought that I want to purpose to you. Every single textbook you've ever read has literally and technically been nothing but the consolidated opinions and several facts of its author(s), yet they don't feel like a TV Trope too often. We need to strive for that. We need to set definitions and we need to objectively look at all these concepts. We might look at them as wrong, but maybe we need to define them as a tool and teach them how to be used instead of just locking them away as some taboo, or maybe we should label them a taboo or something to be used sensitively, and explain why. At times, we will have probably spam the phase "the general consensus" or write the detriments of using them incorrectly as cause-and-effect in such a black and white way that how they can be hurtful and why they're not conducted is an understood rule posted in almost every original thread.

Edit: In case I actually didn't answer your question about the different definitions during different parts of the roleplay in my address to Brovo, I will now. If there is a core definition, there is no reason not to edit it to better suit each particular subtype of roleplay as long as it doesn't contradict itself or conflict with the original definition. That said, you're quite right in saying that most people aren't going to go through the arbitrary setup of understanding a bunch of complex definition and jargon if it does not apply to them... so we make it apply to them. Simple as that. If they realize they should go back and read Chapter One after reading chapter Six because they want more information about Nation-based roleplay, then that's fine. They obviously are looking for more detailed information. The benefit is also that if they have to read Chapter One and all the newbies read Chapter One, a lot of roleplayers will eventually have common grounds in terms of information. Could be a useful, healthy aspect to have implemented. I would even go as far as creating a Requests forum after we finish the Guide for people who might eventually want 'more' to it or a few changes that may be beneficial and/or don't merit a giant overhaul.

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I'm going to skip replying to the next few as to reply to Brovo as I believe I will answer several questions. I have read all of your points and I deem them valid, but I also don't deem them so valid that they merit a complete restructure of the Guide, which is why prior to this I didn't quite immediately concede. I have a brilliant idea here. The approach I had was academic, sure, but there is no reason we can't take that and plot in your more practical applications here. I intended to have an index, so my suggestion here is actually a remodel of the first Unit. After asking What is Roleplay?, one can move on to another Unit, but the rest of the Unit could and probably should be dedicated to two things: the application of Roleplay and its models. Guess what the very first one should be? How it's done right here on our very own Guild. Every single concept you just described could be placed into a chapter and probably even organized with sub-chapters, much like the system Aki had set in place. Additionally, if we make these the very first few chapters, we can describe them or "tag" them as a Quick Start Guide. Here, I believe we can make Chapter One and Chapter Two, possible even Chapter Three or whatever else is part of the Quick Start Guide apply to all five of your rules without forfeiting any of the benefits of the system I had in mind and since my system already had in place a method of learning about a single topic, using an index, etc., then all we have to do is further streamline that with conventional chronology that ties in with the organization system, and there's not a single conflict.

This is where I want it to differ, though.

Divide And Conquer. People are going to read the guide for a spray of different purposes: To learn about the basics of role playing, to learn about GMing, to learn about Players, and so on. Each "section" should be its own distinct entity, that being said...

That being said, if we create this Quick Start Guide following all your rules that also ties into the definitions we set forth in Chapter One and uses the same model we design, then there is no reason we can't go on as planned with more lengthy, in-depth chapters to the Guide. I have explained how to make each section its own entity and that this is a community effort. This isn't a one-man project anymore nor is it just some Guide to string together a couple others and share credit. We are a group. We are a single, working body with a single goal here and that is how we should address this. I understand you have an outlook here and I firmly believe that with some editing and a little compromise, we could easily have something far better than either alone. Essentially, if we have your Guide designed to be condensed and easily read/understood that is consistent with my academic Guide all in the same setup, we are reaching out to the entire community who would make use of or enjoy reading either style.

That said, I would also like to keep a consistent aesthetic once we get the Guide going. Consistency will play a huge factor here. The Nations Roelplay Chapter should look similar to and share traits with the Quick Start Guide. Same for 1x1's. Same for the part of the Guide where I might go off into other models. I would like to note that I intended for this to be a Guide for roleplay itself, not a How To Use The Site, but I suppose if you fit it into the same chapter it won't be hurtful. I would personally like to see a bit more content there, but I also have very little idea how the rest of the Guide will look in a semi-finished state, so that is really a null point presently.

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tl:dr There is no reason we can't fit all of these ideas into the same Guide. I have put an immense amount of thought into this Guide as originally I had considered making one alone just like Brovo, but I feel that the community effort will be vastly more powerful. The Guide should be leagues more than a quick how-to, but in fact, it should also be a quick how-to. I understand this and I believe the foundation set forth could easily fit a vast array of information and uses. We can also edit it as we add more as the project goes on. The five rules you set forth, Brovo, don't necessarily need to apply to the entire Guide, but definitely would benefit the important ones.

On a more personal note, there is no reason whatsoever for rule #5 to be 'avoid elitism'. You know personally I have went off on huge tangents explaining that my opinion on the topic greatly differs. There is no reason a proper "elite" could not be "humble and inviting, uplifting, and constructive." For such reasons, I'm going to request you omit those two words (and period) from that rule. They're unneeded, a distraction for me and overall add nothing to it that you didn't effectively explain in detail afterwards. If omitted, the rule will relay the same message.

I do hope I addressed everyone here as there was a lot of content to post. I woke up in the middle of the night and read this, then felt the odd need to reply... to all of it. There is no reason a universal Guide could not be a basic and advanced one, as long as we work to make it such.

Sidenote: Forgive spelling and grammar errors, pl0x. I woke up at 2:15 AM to write this because I felt the odd and urgent need to. I'm sure there are a couple and I hope they don't inhibit the clarity of what I mean.

Jig said
I definitely think having a core "How do I get stuck in?" speed-guide is a good idea. When you get a video game, you throw the instructions out of the way as you get the disc out the box, tell the annoying tutorial level where it can stick its helpful advice, and it's only when you get slaughtered on the first boss that you start to look at what you're doing wrong.I also totally agree with advice #2-5, but I think for a detailed guide in any one topic, going into detail is kind of the point. Leaving out important stuff for the sake of brevity results in missing information. For more basic guides, as you've shown above, the 1,000 mark is probably sufficient.OT: Are you looking for advice on the What is PbPRP guide, btw?

Brovo said Average readers get through about 200 words per minute. So try to aim for no more than 1,000 words per concept.

If you have a hundred things to say, it's fine to make it a long, essay-like structure, because you have a hundred concepts to convey. It's not fine if you use the same amount of space for fifty concepts: That means that you just wasted 50% of your total space, which harms clarity and generally annoys readers. As I mentioned (I think) the PbPRP Guide would be the shortest and most brutally simple of the three since it's just hitting the baselines.

Also, yes, I'm looking for advice if you want to offer it. No reason to say no to another pair of eyes and another brain giving input.

@Prince: Couple of things.

#1: Why do we need twelve chapters? I mean even in your skeleton, there's only one chapter with a name. The fourth 'unit' doesn't even have a clear purpose: It's just question marks. Rather than building a giant architecture straight away, if we're going to write this... We should probably address what actually needs writing. What points need to be hit, and in what order, and how important they are for the general role player. For instance, GM's probably need to understand how plots work. That could be a "chapter". Systems in a PbPRP sense are entirely optional and usually heavily simplified from their D&D uncles, so that could probably also be relegated to a solitary chapter instead of being separated and alienated entirely from "text-based role play" (which is a bit of a misnomer really: All role play in PbPRP is text based. ). Especially since "text-based" and "systems-based" share a lot of common ground: They both use plots, they both have characters, they both are set up near identically on a forum, etc. Nation RPing is more of a subset or niche, so it would have less priority, and be further down the line.

The best part of making them individual modules that can stand relatively independently of one another would be that the consistency problem essentially disappears. Since every "chapter" would be written with the purpose of focusing on that specific concept or set of concepts. For instance, a guide on Nation RPing would focus far more heavily on mechanics than it would on story or plot, so it would naturally take a somewhat different structure. Then, anyone in the group could write a guide that they think is necessary, everyone else could have a gander at it, take turns putting it through the scientific gauntlet until it's at the utmost it can be, then deciding if it's worth keeping, then putting it as a "chapter" in the structure based on how many people could possible need it.

Also, the less talk of sub-chapters, the better. If a single concept cannot be organized appropriately within a chapter and it requires sub-chapters, it's already too complex for the average high school student to understand and/or care for, and we will have lost the target demographic's attention.

#2: Elitism in general does not have a good connotation, especially on this forum. The purpose of stating it wasn't to imply anything about your personal beliefs on the term, it was to make the point clear that taking a tone of superiority will not sell well to the demographic we are aiming at, (which by definition an 'elitist' tone is implying superiority as per the definition of elitism), whether or not the tone has anything implicitly wrong with it is beside the point. No offense was intended however and I apologize, though I can't promise that it won't crop up because it's a natural part of my vocabulary.

#3: The PbPRP Guide is modeled after the "For Dummies" guide books. It's meant as an intro for people who have no idea what forum role playing is, ergo why it's also the shortest, since it's really just an over-glorified introduction that spends the majority of its time giving tips for rather self-intuitive concepts rather than explaining them. The conclusion (which isn't finished there) is meant to immediately shove people towards the Player guide, which would actually teach the advanced concepts about how characters function both in the mechanics and the story. It's also something that, after the player and GM guides were written up, I was completely happy with scrapping if it felt redundant.

I'm going to write a pretty short reply here. The architecture I set out is designed for ease of addition and edition later. Simple as that. It doesn't need to be huge, like I gave in the example. However, we could just keep adding chapters per type of roleplay. The idea of Units is just to organize the types of different roleplay, really. Although it's not needed, it would assist later in searching and give a nice mechanic. It wouldn't hurt it to have them, especially if the first few chapters are the Quick Start Guide and roleplay theory models, anyway.

What you described is just making an index for several guides. What is far more beneficial and integrated is, in fact, having the core system applied to branch topics. That way, every type of roleplay is connected on a conceptual basis. With a good editor working hand in hand with an expert writer, it won't be that hard to get it right. My suggestion her e is that if it does in fact become a problem later, we rework it, but I would staunchly advise trying to keep it for now.

As for the latter half of your idea in turns of scrapping for player and GM guides, I'd say to address that at a later date, too.

You're entirely right in the sense we need to get objective goals set, but we needed to make headway in getting everyone aboard.

I have done a little work on the wikidot. Now would be a good time to go take a look at it and get a feel for it. I've set up a few pages to give a slight understanding as to how this 'should' work out for now.

Sooooo, what happens now?

One: Get link.
Two: Apply for membership.
Three: Get accepted.
Four: Edit awaaay.

Has somebody already signed me up?! My name is already taken, apparently.

It also wouldn't let me create an account called Professor Jiggington von Rumpelwald because it was too long. Oh, the trauma.

What has the world come to. You can't even have the names you want nowadays.

Proposed chapter two content. This is very much in Beta stage, and I've highlighted my post with asterisks for words that will probably need definitions for consistency and I've put notes between each sections on my reasoning. This is designed to explain how RPing works on this forum in particular, and so doesn't really go into the wider details of RPing itself.



And here it is un-annotated.



Any suggestions or anything are great, but if this is the right sort of thing, it might be easier to C&P it and make your own edits rather than try to explain them and hope I get it right. I've only got a small brain.

Jig: I know how to word 'Nation-based'.

Nation-based are games that involved groups of players playing as factions or nations.

As for Tabletop-based, I think Vordak has a good meaning for this.

I have to work on some laptops (some drunk tourists fucked them up) and are paying a hefty some to have them working and/or told they're fucked beyond belief. I will get back to this ASAP.

Jig said *Guild? What is that?*

It looks good. I think you should put the Beta Stage on the site, so- oh whoops you already mentiomed that. Yeah, copying and pasting it would work. You wouldn't be in such demand to continuously edit the one post. They can do it themselves.

AkiBlue said
It looks good. I think you should put the Beta Stage on the site, so- oh whoops you already mentiomed that. Yeah, copying and pasting it would work. You wouldn't be in such demand to continuously edit the one post. They can do it themselves.

I kinda feel like it's a bit clunky and unwieldy and dependent on feedback as to whether its appropriate and what its role is in relation to other submissions, and I'd rather sort that stuff out before submitting it. I was under the impression that anybody could edit it once submitted, but there's still a bit of dissection and stuff to be done yet.