It's also hard to find a balance between having a sandbox and a rigid plot. In hindsight I can't help but feel like this might have lived if Ripper's Destruction Catalysts landed sooner so that we could have had the plot force interaction and make things interesting.

I just had so much more fun playing for other people rather than playing by myself. I think the extra interaction would help a lot. There should be some resource we have to fight over that is common to all of us, rather than everyone needing different things.

For example, I need to win the hearts of people to be stronger, some people just needed to be left alone, some people needed land, so many people could ignore each other.

An interesting idea. What if we removed imps and made that resource humans? There would be a good reason to conquer NPCs (to capture slaves) and combined with a smaller amount of land, the inevitable rush to conquer would drive keepers to meet each other faster than they normally might.

I don't know why I was even a GM in the first place. The whole Horsemen idea never panned out and gave me too much to concentrate on. I'd be happy to go along with whatever solution the twos of yous think up.

Ah, now that's getting somewhere. A common resource, of course. Basics of population dynamics: if there is no competition over anything, then no struggles for survival. Human slaves is a good choice. The need for workers is universal to Keepers, so simply removing imps (which we can get away with easily since we've just hopped dimensions) brings that demand for humans in without having to change anything else. And if/when humans are sparse, Keepers will have to capture slaves from other Keepers.

Humans also need to be fed and housed and cared for, otherwise they die, which adds an extra layer to it. Unless you dedicate a large amount of infrastructure, resources, and workers into caring for your humans, your number of slaves would slowly diminish, demanding continual expansion. The willingness of your slaves is another factor too. If you take the guise of a benevolent overlord, then your human underlings would happily work for you and you would get maximum efficiency out of them. If, however, you overwork them, or if you've had to massacre all their family and friends in front of their eyes, they would be pretty poor at working, although you could probably compensate by just getting more. But, of course, if you get more, you have to feed more, which means you need to assign more as farmers. At this point the functions of demanding tribute (or forming trade alliances) become relevant. For example, you would be able to obtain food without having to expend your own workers. Or metals means you do not have to invest in a mine and miners. Etc.

This could work.


P.S. Cav, we roped you in because you were one of the originals and the Horsemen were your characters and we valued your input.
Next time, we need to figure out some plot which actually works well in the context of DK. Personally, I think the Ripper plan, while cool, on the whole lacked relevance to the individual Keeper and Dungeon. Something along the lines of those heroes and titans Trapezoid mentioned (but tweaked and fleshed out some more, of course. If its a good idea we can elaborate in PM), or something like an extension of what was happening with the Annointed of Caldor, would form a better plot for our Keepers to get tied up in, because it happens where they are not in some distant place.

BBeast, you just said that this would need less GMs but you're asking for a collaborative PM discussion to figure out the plot. I wouldn't mind doing that, but if I know the entire plot wouldn't that make me a GM?

How many GMs would be ideal, anyways? If just one of us has to update the Compendium, design the entire plot, answer questions, and control plot characters then it would be too much. Maybe two is a good balance. In the end I think that it's a proportion; the more players we could attract, the more GMs we could get away with having.

Cyclone said
BBeast, you just said that this would need less GMs but you're asking for a collaborative PM discussion to figure out the plot. I wouldn't mind doing that, but if I know the entire plot wouldn't that make me a GM?

That is true. It was more a matter of if there was to be discussion on further details it would need to be by PM so as not to spoil any surprises for everyone else.

Cyclone said How many GMs would be ideal, anyways? If just one of us has to update the Compendium, design the entire plot, answer questions, and control plot characters then it would be too much. Maybe two is a good balance. In the end I think that it's a proportion; the more players we could attract, the more GMs we could get away with having.

Two is probably a good balance. One demands a lot of work from one person. Two allows sharing of responsibility and accountability of ideas and variety in plot NPCs and someone to take charge if the other is away. Some discussion on how to divide responsibilities and roles would be required, of course.

You could have more than two if you allocate certain parts to different people.

BBeast- Plot, story, setting, etc.
Other- Questions
Other- Compendium

That's just an example, it really depend on the numbers and how much you want to spread to other GMs.

Well, now that we've decided on two as the number the next step would be to figure out who those two will be, if we're going through with this. Then those two could work out the division of labor, plot, and so on.

BBeast, if you don't want to be a GM for the next go I don't blame you. Personally I think it might be fun to go back to not knowing the plot, but I'll still do it unless somebody else wants to.

Kangutso has a point, but we should probably just start with two and only add more people to make it easier if the work gets to be too much.

I like the new flare of life in this RP. But, would it continue from where it is now, or be reset?

We need to start from scratch. Our world is too big, and the scope of our planned plot is too broad.

I've already had ideas for the next DK milling around in my head (I don't have any ideas for a Keeper, though, as Calvartem would not nicely fit a model requiring live humans). For setting, I'm thinking a small patch of land, no more than a few hundred km across (like a European country), bordered by ocean, tundra, mountains, and desert. Its inhabitants are split into four nations, each with an affinity to particular branches of magic and augmentation (current plan: fire/strength (like Annointed of Caldor and Paterdomans), earth/defence, water/life (Like Disciples of Unda and Biomancers), storms/speed). Keeping with the idea of scarcity of resources, each nation has an abundance of a resource that others mostly lack. Fire: cement/construction, Earth: metals, Water: food/wood, Storms: ???. Barbarians inhabit the borders. Each nation would also have their own religions. There would be a simple web of alliances and enemies between the four nations.

GMs would need to play these four nations, at least for major actions. To prevent a conflict of interest, their Keeper and their NPC nation(s) should not be in the same area.

Any feedback?

BBeast said
We need to start from scratch. Our world is too big, and the scope of our planned plot is too broad.I've already had ideas for the next DK milling around in my head (I don't have any ideas for a Keeper, though, as Calvartem would not nicely fit a model requiring live humans). For setting, I'm thinking a small patch of land, no more than a few hundred km across (like a European country), bordered by ocean, tundra, mountains, and desert. Its inhabitants are split into four nations, each with an affinity to particular branches of magic and augmentation (current plan: fire/strength (like Annointed of Caldor and Paterdomans), earth/defence, water/life (Like Disciples of Unda and Biomancers), storms/speed). Keeping with the idea of scarcity of resources, each nation has an abundance of a resource that others mostly lack. Fire: cement/construction, Earth: metals, Water: food/wood, Storms: ???. Barbarians inhabit the borders. Each nation would also have their own religions. There would be a simple web of alliances and enemies between the four nations.GMs would need to play these four nations, at least for major actions. To prevent a conflict of interest, their Keeper and their NPC nation(s) should not be in the same area.Any feedback?

Storms......they could be the people who have Harnessed The Lightning and put it to use, or some stuff.

What would the total population be? 400,000, spread across a few major cities and the countryside?

I'm not sure I like the idea of four completely stereotypical nations, each one with one type of resource in abundance. Too much like Avatar: The Last Airbender. The basic premise is fine, I'd just prefer more unique groups for the sake of a better story.

Maybe a loose khanate of nomadic tribes would have access to wind and nature magic, with various shamanistic rituals to commune with the spirits for guidance or help, and a tiny portion of their population born with the ability to wreak havoc by calling upon the magic powers of their tribal spirits. This tribe would have the least amout of magic, however what they do have would be powerful. I can see these people controlling a relatively large swathe of land, but with a low population due to their nomadic nature. Inspired by the Mongols and a bit of the Klug tribe, technologically wise they might not be superior but through the use of clever tactics and what magic they have, they would make a surprisingly formidable opponent.

What do you think? We don't even have to use that; I just wanted to make the point that four mostly equal nations that neatly fall into the four categories of stereotypical magic seems too gamey. Just like we have the OP urge players to make interesting and unique characters and creatures, the NPCs and plot characters especially need to be interesting as well. But then again, I could be the only one who feels this way.

Also, as I mentioned in my previous post, we should figure out who will be the GMs.

Edit: Come to think of it, I don't think four nations, each fiting nicely into one corner, is ideal. I say we have five, with this fifth one being a kingdom with a massive and wealthy capital, smack dab in the center of the map. Such a prize would be very tempting, so naturally I think we might see two or three Keepers straying from their edges of the map towards the middle in an attempt to sieze it. The more things we can do to encourge interaction, the better. A central location would also be a good place for plot actions to go down.

Hey, been awhile since I checked on this. Explosions, and whatnot.
Looking back at these posts, I do really like the ideas, and it seems that you have addressed most, if not all of the problems that I saw.

I agree with Cyclone- Air, Earth, Fire, and Water is just a bit too cliche. I could throw out some ideas to make new, but original cities, but I don't think this website supports that many characters.

Now that I have free time, I will be more active, and actually... Here and stuff.

I think live humans is a resource far too restrictive. It restricts, as BBeast mentioned, certain keeper types. Also, above where it was all about "keeping your slaves happy" and whatnot, it would give a decisive and unfair advantage to those who decided to play as fake good guys.

If humans were to be the resource in question, I think a more fair way to put it would be to make it so it was the SOULS or something of the humans that was important. Every human, no matter how humble, has a little bit of magic in them. If you take 1000 weak measly humans and siphon their collective magic, that would result in a powerful source of energy.

So, for people like my Emperor of Peace, he would be Siphoning their magic through their worship. They may not realize it, but their prayers and faith are literally granting him power. Someone else may draw that power out by killing them all and imprisoning their souls into the very structure of their fortress, the walls literally screaming with the agony of thousands of anguished souls having their power eternally harvested. Someone who has a biological focus might require these souls to empowered their creations, soulless lumps of flesh are far weaker than those that have a soul woven into them, or whatever, so they can't just turn food and being left alone into explosive power growth. Someone who has a mechanical focus might need these souls to provide the fuel source and intelligence for their creations, the animating power and minds to their golems and machines.

DR_TRAPEZOID said
Hey, been awhile since I checked on this. Explosions, and whatnot.Looking back at these posts, I do really like the ideas, and it seems that you have addressed most, if not all of the problems that I saw. I agree with Cyclone- Air, Earth, Fire, and Water is just a bit too cliche. I could throw out some ideas to make new, but original cities, but I don't think this website supports that many characters. Now that I have free time, I will be more active, and actually... Here and stuff.

How about, Heat, Storm Nature and Metal? Still archtype elements that make it easy to keep track of, but also unique and not as old-hat as the Four Elements - even though Fire is not an element but a Reaction, and Water is a compound, and if you are speaking of Air in the sense of what we breath, then that about four different elements -

I'm not sure I entirely agree with you there Gecko. It doesn't necessarily limit Keeper types; a necromancer could keep human slaves around because they're bound to be smarter and in some ways more useful than mindless undead automatons. Even Sauron had human slaves.

Sure, a fake benevolent Keeper would have the advantage of happy slaves, though this comes at the disadvantage of having to maintain the facade of being good. That means no terrifying monsters running around, and no alliances with the other Keepers that are a bit more open about their intentions. You would have to be very careful so as to not do anything even remotely evil or suspicious, so as to maintain your guise.

Cyclone said
I'm not sure I entirely agree with you there Gecko. It doesn't necessarily limit Keeper types; a necromancer could keep human slaves around because they're bound to be smarter and in some ways more useful than mindless undead automatons. Even Sauron had human slaves. Sure, a fake benevolent Keeper would have the advantage of happy slaves, though this comes at the disadvantage of having to maintain the facade of being good. That means no terrifying monsters running around, no alliances with the other Keepers that are a bit more open about their intention

You could also have a Spirits Keeper, who's military is based around people possessed by spirits. Which adds another layer to the need for humans.

This is why I opened the ideas up to everyone. From experience, I don't fully trust myself to make a plot/setting with sufficient depth on my own. It's much better to take ideas from many people.

I like the idea of one major central empire with minor nations/tribes surrounding it. That does better fill our purposes. It definitely sets a good focus for conquest.

I am aware that the four elements I suggested are clichéd. I am very open to alternative suggestions. In my opinion, nomadic shaman/nature tribe is a good idea, and Storms too (maybe they worship the weather). Although I think Metal is too specific, and Heat just sounds like it will end up being a different name for Fire.

Humans need to be live. They substitute imps, which are necessary for the operation and construction of any Dungeon. This means they can be easily captured/traded from other Keepers, or sabotaged, or liberated by other humans. And it adds a deeper layer of strategy than simply murdering them and absorbing their souls. If you like, an alternative to keeping them content (or oppressed enough so they can't rebel) would be to brainwash them, although that could have the unfortunate side effect of reducing their ability to perform independent tasks. Of course, they still have to be fed.

I repeat the question: what should the total population be? I genuinely don't know, but I have a feeling that the presence of more than one or two big cities (we're talking 100,000 population) might be bad. Too hard to realistically conquer. On a side note, with a fairly fleshed out nomadic shaman tribe, and a vague storm-worship group we still need to come up with a few more nations.

I for one like the idea of a nation ruled by tyrannical warlocks that make Shaige's magic look benevolent. Spurned and cast out by all the other tribes for their horrendous practices, the warlocks and their followers were forced to live in the shadow of a range of volcanic mountains, surviving in a volcanic wasteland. Some places are fertile from the volcanic ash and home to real settlements, but vast swathes of their hellish land are srained black from soot and ash and are house nothing save lawless men and death. However, this group has recently had a schism; the warlocks' absolute authority has been challenged by a new fervent cult that seemed to spring out of nowhere, claiming to have reached contact with a divine spirit named Caldor.

Naturally, if I end up as one of those that control an NPC group, the one abve is what I'd like to do. A different mix, with both the cliche fire magic as well as evil warlock stuff, along with the opportunity for a clever Keeper to weaken the entire realm by manipulating the warlocks and cultists into fighting.

For other nations, we could have something similar to the ice witches north of Paterdomus that I only mentioned in passing. The idea was basically a kingdom of ice and death, with the ice witches actually being immortal demons from Kokytos in disguise. To reap souls as well as harden their mortal followers, the sadistic ice witches allow their magically-elongate winters to wreak havoc upon the human population. Disease and starvation lead to the weak dying and in some cases, the strog resorting to cannibalism. Hard places breed hard people though, and whenever given the opportunity the witches' followers will pillage enemy lands with a ruthlessnes and desperate fighting that can't be described, as their survival often depends on stealing from other lands.

Like these two nations?