Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Meiyuuhi
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This is what it would theoretically look like, with everything else updated:



That blue bit is supposed to be the Ventium colony, it ended up slightly off-color somehow despite me using the dropper tool.

Just my opinion, either we should expand to fill the available space or let people join until it is full, or the world won't really feel complete.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Sigma
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Edit: Nevermind :)
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Hael
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The empty spots on the map are still bothering me, so I quickly "fixed" it :D

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Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Voltus_Ventus
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@Mihndar You also missed the mountains to the west that you didn't fully incorperate but otherwise I'm happy.

Thanks for doing this, I don't have a computer ATM. Really appreciate it.

You are now official map custodian.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Willy Vereb
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To be blunt I think it's really stupid to say, "We didn't have a major war, therefore there would be no arms race and nations would not have developed *insert technology here*".

What's the point of saying that the tech level is what the real world was at during the 1940's if we don't have all the stuff that was created as a result of WWI? Wouldn't not having that studf make us behind 1940 in tech?

And as in for jet engines, @Voltus_Ventus I don't remember you ever giving a reason why you banned them. Granted I probably wouldn't have gotten jet engines anyways so I don't care much, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.
Well, without immediate incentive like a war people would be still competing and such but without direct experiences some nations may not even realize the true importance of aircrafts, most nations won't.
Jet engines were in development regardless, though. But without a war going on the nations are unlikely to push the research until they can get the jet plane.
Even if jets are availible it took Germans about 2-3 years during the war to actually get a jet plane. So yeah, I like to take the situation on jet fighers as "not yet".

As for what 1940 tech means, it's up to interpretation. We are running on an alternate history which even has fantasy elements. Also as you could read my and ASTA's reactions in the OOC, most nations are actually having stuff in their military which was made in 1942-43 or even later. So yeah.
Another thing is that due to various reasons you can expect a fair number of schizo tech examples here. Robotic horses are advanced even by modern standards yet a nation has them in great masses for their cavalry.

Anyways, the problem with jets could be that on paper they make typical propeller aircraft obsolete in air combat. Then again that's a misconception since jets were only semi-successful during WW2 and even after that they had maintenance and reliability problems until the 60s.
Not to mention that your typical jet fighter with missile locks and such is really a thing by the 70s and preferably later.
So yeah, having jet fighters doesn't make anything OP.
This is like limiting firearms in medieval fantasy, missing the whole point that guns were a thing even before anyone began creating plate mails.
On the other hand I agree that it'd be better if jets fighters are developed only later and even then they'd be relatively rare.
Like I said if we ignore everything but the basic specs: jets > props
Which may be problematic if some nation has great number of jet fighters. It'd start a kind of arms race between players and in the end we pretty much get typical Cold War era weapons in really short time.
That's not something I would want.

On the tech dispute, I would argue to keep the limit because if you raise it people are just going to put up even more advanced stuff to account for it. And most of it doesn't lie that far out of WW2 if at all, though some things (like flying aircraft carriers) should probably be nipped in the bud.
I wouldn't mind if we would keep this at 1940ish levels but I can adopt if we do it differently.
I already adjusted my "main" interceptor's speed to mid-late WW2 prop levels (or somewhat above, just look at the engine to weight ratio) and added various hardpoint options which very a pretty typical thing by this time.

As for air motherships, there's nothing too off about them.
Mothership concept in itself is known since WW1. And we have a "super gas" lighter than hydrogen and noncombustible so there's even more reason to invest in airships. They seem to be pretty much the "thing" of this setting. I can barely count the nations who don't own them and the number of nations who arm them up like battleships is similarly large.
Voltus_Ventus for example has airships with armament similar to the Iowa battleship, although hopefully not as armored.
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Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Hael
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For once, I gotta agree with Willy. The tech is gonna be a bit "Schizo" because we're basically doing a WW2-type setting without the infamous "wake-up call" of WW1 when folks tried to run down tanks with horses. So we have the extra few decades of advancement, but the realization of how needed aircraft and updated weaponry is would not yet have hit everyone. This will mean some things are advanced by comparison (from those extra decades) but others are well behind (because there was no WW1 to kick things off).
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Meiyuuhi
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<Snipped quote by Mihndar>I wouldn't mind if we would keep this at 1940ish levels but I can adopt if we do it differently.
I already adjusted my "main" interceptor's speed to mid-late WW2 prop levels (or somewhat above, just look at the engine to weight ratio) and added various hardpoint options which very a pretty typical thing by this time.

As for air motherships, there's nothing too off about them.
Mothership concept in itself is known since WW1. And we have a "super gas" lighter than hydrogen and noncombustible so there's even more reason to invest in airships. They seem to be pretty much the "thing" of this setting. I can barely count the nations who don't own them and the number of nations who arm them up like battleships is similarly large.
Voltus_Ventus for example has airships with armament similar to the Iowa battleship, although hopefully not as armored.


The thing about this though is that amusingly everyone is forgetting the reason why people don't use airships for war (unless that is intentional):

You fire a cannon or a rocket at it, it pops, and your entire massive machine that you spent a billion dollars on falls out of the sky because there's no effective way to repair the breach and you can't put enough armor on it without weighing it down too much to move. You make the balloon bigger, you have to add more armor and you don't escape the same problem.

Airships should not be heavily armed for the simple reason that the more stuff you put on it, the more you lose when it gets destroyed. And how on earth could an airship support both an airstrip long enough to take off of and *checks character tab* 300 planes? Just seems a tad too unrealistic to me.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Hael
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<Snipped quote by Willy Vereb>

The thing about this though is that amusingly everyone is forgetting the reason why people don't use airships for war:

You fire a cannon or a rocket at it, it pops, and your entire massive machine that you spent a billion dollars on falls out of the sky because there's no effective way to repair the breach and you can't put enough armor on it without weighing it down too much to move. You make the balloon bigger, you have to add more armor and you don't escape the same problem.

Airships should not be heavily armed for the simple reason that the more stuff you put on it, the more you lose when it gets destroyed. And how on earth could an airship support both an airstrip long enough to take off of and *checks character tab* 300 planes? Just seems a tad too unrealistic to me.


That's why I'm not using airships :)

When all of you anti-climatically pop away, I'll just be smiling...mwuahahhaha
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Voltus_Ventus
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If the interior of the ballon is made of many many many small compartments, and the skins of modestly armored material, it should take lots of hits.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Hael
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If the interior of the ballon is made of many many many small compartments, and the skins of modestly armored material, it should take lots of hits.


Maybe. But any type of balloon in a battlefield would be much, much less safe than a more conventional aircraft. It may not be entirely vulnerable, but not nearly as practical .
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Meiyuuhi
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If the interior of the ballon is made of many many many small compartments, and the skins of modestly armored material, it should take lots of hits.


And the more compartments, the more walls of those compartments, and the more weight.

Though not as much as the exterior armor or weapons, it adds up over time.
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Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Voltus_Ventus
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<Snipped quote by Voltus_Ventus>

Maybe. But any type of balloon in a battlefield would be much, much less safe than a more conventional aircraft. It may not be entirely vulnerable, but not nearly as practical .


Suspended reality. Outcomes of battles aren't represented by your tech or rolls or numbers, you make up the outcome and that could mean airships lose and it could mean they win. It's your choice.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Willy Vereb
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<Snipped quote by Willy Vereb>

The thing about this though is that amusingly everyone is forgetting the reason why people don't use airships for war (unless that is intentional):

You fire a cannon or a rocket at it, it pops, and your entire massive machine that you spent a billion dollars on falls out of the sky because there's no effective way to repair the breach and you can't put enough armor on it without weighing it down too much to move. You make the balloon bigger, you have to add more armor and you don't escape the same problem.

Airships should not be heavily armed for the simple reason that the more stuff you put on it, the more you lose when it gets destroyed. And how on earth could an airship support both an airstrip long enough to take off of and *checks character tab* 300 planes? Just seems a tad too unrealistic to me.
You are pretty badly informed on this front.
No, airships were pretty much the tanks of air combat during WW2.
You could pretty much put the ship full of holes and it could still get back safely to home.
Things were complicated further because airships were capable of far higher altitudes than aircraft so any kind of interception on them was running with rather low hit probability.
Things only turned around by the invention of incrediary projectiles as it ignited the hydrogen by some dozens of shots and then the airship blew up in a blazing glory.

We have a noncombustible gas which weighs only half of hydrogen (somehow...) so incrediary projectiles aren't a concern. And as I said, gas leaks are otherwise are too slow to be such a big problem. I think you are forgetting that the main point of these airships to be filled with gas at standard pressure. You only make the ship heavier if you add pressure to the chambers which is definetly not the point.

On the other hand it's true that no matter what an airship would not be able to carry as much stuff as a naval ship does. Airhips have fairly strict weight limitations and you can't really armor them because they have such a huge surface area. Then again, we have mechs and other fantastical elements. I think it's better if we take everything with a grain of salt.

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<Snipped quote by Hael>

Suspended reality. Outcomes of battles aren't represented by your tech or rolls or numbers, you make up the outcome and that could mean airships lose and it could mean they win. It's your choice.


I know, I've just never been a big fan of airships.

Like I said, I know it's by all means possible. I just don't think they're particularly practical when compared to other forms of aircraft. But when it comes to the RP I'll certainly try to put narrative first.

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Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Voltus_Ventus
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I'm off to bed, have fun debating things you crazy people.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Hael
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I'm off to bed, have fun debating things you crazy people.


Alright.

My nation is going to atom-bomb everyone. Problems?
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Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Cyclone
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@Hael

My nation is going to invent a super-substance that is safe to handle and doesn't decay yet somehow produces a hundred times as much energy as uranium does when split. We will then proceed to use this in nuclear power plants to have unlimited Power like Emperor Palpatine, and use them in bomb to nuke everything like Gandhi.

Problem? (Bonus points to anyone who gets the Gandhi joke)
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Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Alfhedil
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I don't get all this hype about airships and flying things. Shoot it full of holes and it crashes to the ground all the same. None can pass the Iron Ring by air without the Hegemon's permission .-.
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I don't get all this hype about airships and flying things. Shoot it full of holes and it crashes to the ground all the same. None can pass the Iron Ring by air without the Hegemon's permission .-.


I'm sorry, but your avatar and signature totally ruin the menacing Nazi-Getmany vibe that you'd otherwise have going on.
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Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Meiyuuhi
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<Snipped quote by Voltus_Ventus>

Alright.

My nation is going to atom-bomb everyone. Problems?


Yeah, because I'm going to nuclear missile you first.

Anyway, I guess so on all the airship stuff. There should still be some limits on how much an airship can weigh, because for example 300 planes is way too many. I don't even think a modern sea aircraft carrier can carry that many.

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A fellow Civ player I see.
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