@Ellri
I like the implications of what I'm seeing in that quote you just gave from the template. If I'm understanding this correctly, you've basically got multiple appearance sections for different situations? Sort of like the equivalent of listing a character's casual outfit and then listing the military outfit or work outfit separately? I actually do this myself -- in my project I've got multiple outfits for the characters - the ones who actually change outfits at various points - established to show a more fleshed out idea of how the character looks.

Considering the scale of this RP, sheets are a necessary element. Few people can keep track of intricate details of around thirty different characters.

This is exactly the same as my own projects, especially the main one I've referred countless times on this site. While I do contain most of the information in my head, most of the people (read: not people who lack intelligence or decent memory) I talk to have a difficult time keeping all of the details of even one of the characters or concepts in their head, let alone the entire cast and setting.

We are also demanding of our players to provide sheets of a certain "quality", sometimes providing leniency towards those who have yet to evolve as far as others on what they can plausibly write.

Precisely how I run my role-plays, actually. While the role-playing forum I mentioned in the past was full of elitists, I don't think it had anything at all to do with the style of character sheets they wanted. I've actually told a few people this, but the head administrator and creator of that site - the person who made those character sheet requirements - was actually not an elitist at all, and during the few times I got to associate with him we got along quite well.

When I left that forum and went on to create my own, I continued the legacy of having thoroughly detailed character sheets, but I didn't carry on the elitist nature of the site as me and my associates were more than willing to help people who weren't used to working with extensive profiles. By the time these people were finished working on their character sheets using the advice we gave them, several of them had significantly improved as writers and had even been thanking us for it.

Edit: Because I dislike double posting when I can avoid it...

@NuttsnBolts
Didn't see your response while I was replying to Ellri, but I figured you'll find this since it's your thread. I'm aware the [ @Mention ] will fail.

I'll go out on a limb here and assume that you're Australian like me, based on that story.

Anyway, there's only two points I feel like commenting on here, since the rest of it is something I've either gone into enough detail about at this point or I've already made blatantly clear I'm in agreement or disagreement with -- when all is said and done, more details means more realism and I think good writing should be realistic.

When it does come to something like listing a mental disorder, I don't think that's necessarily a problem with the character or CS, but more a problem with the player. I've played mentally disturbed players before and it's hard, especially with some disorders (Try playing a character that has an active voice in her head and always refers to her and the voice as we... NOT EASY), but kudos to the player for at least trying to understand the disorder. I don't think building a character around it and using it for an RP is the best move but that also comes back to the GM who allowed it into the RP and how they failed to spot that it could be a problem.

I've actually got several characters who have to deal with voices in their head (for a multitude of reasons I won't go into here, but these voices even sometimes use the term 'we' - exactly like you just gave in your own example - ironically), but onto the main point -- I don't actually think there's anything inherently 'wrong' with someone wanting to introduce a character with mental disorders into a role-play.

These sorts of people exist in reality, and in a role-play with no such people the world doesn't feel as real due to that (assuming there's a lot of characters appearing, but a large majority of people in the world do have some form of mental encumbrance or another whether they admit it or not), but the point I was making in the character sheet discussion regarding mental disorders is that if the role-player can write out a well-executed CS regarding how this disorder affects the person's life, then chances are they're skilled enough to handle it better than someone who doesn't have a good CS and just wants to role-play the thing to be 'edgy'.

It's fine for a GM to allow people to introduce these characters - I think many of the best stories out there touch on these issues - but the CS allows you to establish people who can't handle it. This was one of several reasons for the detailed profiles on that forum I mentioned.

Ultimately that's why I thought about this and wondered if anyone else had pondered over the same thought. A CS sheet should be an entrant form for any RP and maybe some GMs are asking the wrong questions and don't realise it. Age may not be important if you can only choose between "teen, young adult, adult, elderly", maybe the Appearance could be their favourite clothing setup rather than a bulk standard "this is what they always wear", and more effort placed into the biography rather than the personality so that players aren't locked into that mindset. Just a thought.

There's nothing bad about people wanting their character to have a 'trademark' look. Honestly, if people are assuming the player is always wearing it then this isn't a problem with the character sheet but instead a problem with the players -- either the player didn't specify in the IC that they've currently changed outfit for a certain situation (which makes it their fault if people misunderstand), or the other player didn't read that IC (in which case they shouldn't be doing play-by-post in the first place).

Exactly for the same reason, it's entirely the fault of the players in question if people are locked into a mindset due to a character sheet. If I can actually see that the character is evolving and changing in the IC then I'm going to be writing my character's reactions accordingly to it, and unless there's a justification (psychics, gods, et cetera) people shouldn't be basing their opinions of a character IC by reading the OOC anyway, like I already mentioned. Really, I consider the character sheets for the GM, not for the other players -- the exception being if the other players actually appreciate reading other people's well-thought-out work and are mature enough role-players to not mix OOC with IC unless justified.

To provide a brief few comments on an already well developed conversation, here is my lot.

Writing a character's description, including what they oft wear or even always do in some circumstances is part of their identity. If these words were a movie, it would distinguish them and help put their personality in mind. You can learn a lot about a character, even their writer, by this as anyone might know, but you learn more than you would otherwise without. It gives you another in to their mindset, even if the two elements are disjointed and seemingly utterly mismatched. Like it or not, people usually wear things that you can define a pattern from that gives you a window into their mind - who they are, what they do, why, how they are themselves and so forth. Characters should be just that in my opinion - people.

If you want them to feel real, to feel a connection to them, even this outsider information is fairly essential. From my point, it is not even optional in the slightest. To not include it is neglectful - even disrespectful to me as a reader as I have less trust for you and your work; you are not supplying me with information I would consider as basic as it gets. Call me jaded by my life experiences, because I am, but appearance can be crucial as ever and as is its mere perception. Digging deeper, I find withholding it leads to a number of basic issues beyond characterization - just lack of fact checking or memory.

You probably have seen it, at least once, where two players devolve into an argument because they gave an inaccurate detail about a character. To me, the less you get someone's character wrong the more invested you are and the less disrespectful you come across; I go by the mentality of constantly trying to fact check people's sheets so I react appropriately with my own characters to theirs. Anything less is insincere and oft arrogant - just my feelings on it.

But what do they wear? Do they wear it all the time? Do they always look like that? Unless I, the Game Master or someone else changes it, consider that as is. What about if time passes or its a different day? Same concept. Consider it as is until it isn't. Why? Continuity. Some characters, like people, will wear the same things; some eveb do not have a choice about it, or the changes are thoughtful and deliberate. At times obvious leeway is given, but I try not to drone on about every single detail, but I will mention them at least at once. I weave them in where I can, especially if they are plot or identity relevant. That weird thing I might keep referring to from time to time in a post? Likely not a coincidence. It can be, but oft isn't.

What about pictures?

Unless I own the art, which for my characters I always do when I use pictures because of my philosophy and interest in the matter, I do not want to see them. Many issues I take with them is the raw differences in genre. Not to be too aggressive but I loathe anime pictures in non-anime topics, as an example. Can I always hit the mark and theme? No, but I try to get close or use none at all - I can settle with sketches. But for real people? Almost every photograph of a character feels phony, fake or stock - because most are. Most are too beautiful, stylized or worse, celebrity.

Besides, if we are in a writing medium, I want written explanations and elaborations. I want you to make me envision your idea as best you can muster. Do I want an equipment list with every damn detail down to the name brand and the exact specifications? Never. But details are good - the difference between a "sword" and an "aged iron sword in need of a whetstone" are massive. I think I understand your angle better than before without.

Yet, what about the "Can they only use swords?" example. It depends - if they are carrying, wearing or wielding a specific thing even in appearance alone, my initial thought is going to be that is their go-to. The player with say, the handgun and laptop as his get tell me from the start he isn't dangerous because of the gun; the mage in emerald robes trimmed in gold, adorned by a elaborate headdress? She is probably a noble, or fancies herself one, in addition to wielding magic. It can work both ways, but few do it well with a "false appearance".

Also, common sense for where it all goes in disuse. If one really has nowhere to stow or hide gear, your issues other than appearance every day are more pressing.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity
Nicely worded. You've gone into the points I was making in more detail than I wanted to due to believing people will outright ignore my posts if they reach a certain length. I appreciate you taking the time out to emphasize what I mean when I say that I want people to be thorough and detailed so I can write a realistic reaction to their character.

Unless I own the art, which for my characters I always do when I use pictures because of my philosophy and interest in the matter, I do not want to see them. Many issues I take with them is the raw differences in genre. Not to be too aggressive but I loathe anime pictures in non-anime topics, as an example. Can I always hit the mark and theme? No, but I try to get close or use none at all - I can settle with sketches. But for real people? Almost every photograph of a character feels phony, fake or stock - because most are. Most are too beautiful, stylized or worse, celebrity.

This is pretty much the only place we don't completely agree on. With regards to using artwork itself, I've already pointed out that I only use my own artwork with my main project's characters due to not wanting to feel the desire to put the designs of my role-play characters into my main project (I'm a perfectionist with this story, it must contain my entire soul - as much as possible at least - or I won't be satisfied), so that little bit of detachment helps me when I'm role-playing outside of my main setting.

On the other detail, I don't disagree with you on the whole idea of disliking it when people bring one genre of art into a role-play that focuses on a different genre, since I'm entirely the same as you with regards to this. The only way we differ is in the personal tastes (assuming I'm meant to interpret this example as illustrating your tastes) -- I pretty much only like working with stories that use anime-inspired/manga-inspired artwork and have no real taste for other forms of art, but there's nothing wrong with each of us feeling this way since it's all a subjective preference.

I understand I have the unique fortune and means to work with a great selection of artists and that not all are so lucky, but when I write a character, I think they deserve the piece. It solidifies their identity, even if I only am able to employ their character once, ever. It is a prestige of sorts and as strange as it might be to say, it really is not just for me. Most of my favorite personas I have dreamt up were finalized in identity by art; I could look at them and go, "This is how someone other than me sees them. I want that image to be who everyone thinks of now."

I do not traditionally "wedge" my characters in and some never have their art released to the public; the roleplay could die, the artist could get busy with actual work, the piece and concept are not syncing and so forth. That and... it is mine. My efforts and that of someone I worked closely with have a measured impact.

Changing discussion slightly, my references toward anime characters is mostly because my experiences with it are so jarring. One moment you have a world-weary, hardened soldier forced sellsword done in muted, dull colors and the next you have artwork stolen straight from a series with bright colors, huge eyes or equally unmatched aspects. It would be one thing if I were in that sort of environment, but as you can reason I am not the sort to.

As for elaborations, @Shoryu Magami, to hell with those who do not read because of their length! It obviously was not going to notably impact their person or mean anything for them if they cannot be bothered to merely read. I am pleased to say though that we agree as far as I can tell.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity
Not to get too far away from the topic of the thread, but I'll give some feedback.

I imagine I probably would put more time into creating art for my characters who aren't part of 'Guardian Ascension' if I actually had time for it, but as it stands I barely get enough time to work on the art of my main project itself. I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and draw in many years now. Subsequently, I'm very out of practice with drawing due to not doing it for so long. I also have a lot of difficulty finding interest in a role-play that isn't related to my main project, for - as you likely have guessed from my various posts across this site if you've witnessed them - I can be particularly obsessed with it and am thought of as 'one-track minded' by some people, so even getting involved in a role-play not affiliated to my main work is rare, let alone drawing something devoted to it.

As for integrating art of an inappropriate genre into a role-play where it doesn't belong, we're in agreement, but I should probably make a point that - in my own defence at least, I can't comment for other people - I won't choose a piece of art which I deem to be excessively out of line with the setting of the role-play. There's a dark and gritty role-play involving a warzone? Well I'll be picking a very colourless picture from an anime series that was more rooted in realism. The role-play focuses on a very colourful and magical fantasy world? I'm probably not going to take a picture from Naoki Urasawa's Monster or Ergo Proxy. The media of art that I work with is unlikely to change, but I know how to pick my genre appropriately. I'd similarly find it jarring if I hosted a modern setting anime action series role-play on this site and suddenly I got a picture of Aragorn coming up in a character sheet.

To hell with them indeed. Really, I'm not the type who cares the least what other people think, so it was more a matter of me not wanting to waste my time posting something that wouldn't be appreciated, as opposed to being afraid of people passing judgement on me or trying to dismiss a solid debate with a half-assed statement like 'your post is too long, so your argument is wrong' which is usually only thrown out by people who don't have a real counterargument. With that said, as you can imagine from the back and forth between us right now, I certainly recognize that some people here appreciate my posts -- I even said so prior to you posting here. Nevertheless, I'll stop now since this isn't really on the actual topic.

@NuttsnBolts Oh, I'll check details if there's a sheet, a lot of the time. But I've also been known to spend a couple hours combing a log for the same details, so...<.<; Or just straight up asking. Or assuming, but when told "nope you're wrong" I'll fix it, no problem. ^.^;;

Gonna agree with the part about mental disorders. It's less the presence of the disorder and more not knowing what it's like to have it. I'm sure I've done this with things. ...I've also bent the truth for plot, but I imagine it would upset the wrong audience.

@Shoryu Magami Before I say anything else, let me say again that I do appreciate a well-considered reply. <3 Nor will you ever find me complaining about too much to read simply because of length. My issues always come in other departments. Bashing is bad in general. I try to reserve it for those who absolutely suck and the rest is just grievances with the world in general. ^.^;; I don't always convey that well, though. *sigh*

I think there's major flaws in the divisions. I've come into conflict with rpers specifically because of it, namely length and lore depth being mostly independent issues (plus anyone telling me I /can't/ think about details because it's not an advanced rp is going to frustrate me) but I'm also contentious by nature. Unfortunately. ^.^;;

I agree that even the smallest things can have a big impact -- like with your pocketwatch -- but there's also the literary idea of conservation of detail: if it's mentioned, it's important/relevant. It's hard to find a good balance, and you're right, there's no one correct answer.

@Ellri Actually, I slightly disagree. A char sheet might not be necessary for a world with dozens of characters. The multi-year lore-intensive but script-style realtime rp I'm in three nights a week has...let's see. There's something like six players, and we each have two to four focus characters minimum, and then there's a bunch of recurring ones, and...yeah. So that meets the standard. However, we started without any char sheet, or possibly with a name and a brief blurb, like a character concept. And as we go, we have a forum that has a lot of the lore and try to keep it updated. Instead of character /sheets/, each of the characters has something more like a...synopsis, or a biography. No set format, no set details. It's whatever people feel is important to be remembered. Most of mine are a quick image, often a dollmaker one, or a sketch I did, and then highlights from their past covering the important points going forward, and a quick sketch of personality. I suppose you could call it a sheet, but making them felt nothing like the hassle of writing up an official sheet. *shrug* Big issue here is that they weren't made before the rp started, and stuff about new chars isn't added until after we get to know them.

@Everyone
As Nutts has said, everybody has a valid point, but I noticed that a large portion (read: not all, but still) of the viewpoints presented so far are from our own personal experiences regardless of how objective we try to present our individual arguments (some see the need for detailed sheets, some don't because the RPs we're in have different requirements, standards, etc), so there isn't a right or wrong answer. Just sharing what work best for each of us, and it may not work for everyone. Well, writing itself is a subjective thing, anyway. :) Not sure about others, but I feel that RPing is a good place for me to experiment other aspects of writing and try out new things that it's hard to achieve in solo-storytelling.

Addendum:
Coming back to the topic about whether attire description is important to describing character's appearance in CS, the way the character dresses themselves is how they carry themselves, which is part of their identity. In real life, who doesn't judge others based on first impression, which includes what they wear in the first meeting? Even in job interviews, it's the sad truth that society deems outward appearance is as important as the resume to increase the chance of getting hired. Again, I'll reiterate that one doesn't need to go into too much detail such as exact color, brand, cloth type, down to the seam of the clothing when describing the attire, just enough to bring out the personality and other hidden beliefs of the character, which are the more important stuff about the character.

@shylarah
I'll reply around specific portions (whether they were directed at me or not) of your post again, to make sure everything I say has context.

Gonna agree with the part about mental disorders. It's less the presence of the disorder and more not knowing what it's like to have it. I'm sure I've done this with things. ...I've also bent the truth for plot, but I imagine it would upset the wrong audience.

The reason we have threads like this is pretty much born from the way people can often bite off more than they can chew when it comes to mental illnesses. This doesn't mean that writing them is bad, or that GMs allowing them is wrong, but rather is just proof that - in all elements of writing - you should make sure you have the details down before getting into things -- research is essential.

Before I say anything else, let me say again that I do appreciate a well-considered reply. <3 Nor will you ever find me complaining about too much to read simply because of length. My issues always come in other departments. Bashing is bad in general. I try to reserve it for those who absolutely suck and the rest is just grievances with the world in general. ^.^;; I don't always convey that well, though. *sigh*

Once again, I'll also say 'cheers' for that, since you're one of the people I was referring to in my post when I said some of you on this site do appreciate my responses. Don't wrong me wrong; I wasn't outright implying you specifically when I started talking about 'bashing', but more just that it's a dangerous path that a lot of people start walking down when they become critical of people wanting to be detailed and post a lot of information.

I think there's major flaws in the divisions. I've come into conflict with rpers specifically because of it, namely length and lore depth being mostly independent issues (plus anyone telling me I /can't/ think about details because it's not an advanced rp is going to frustrate me) but I'm also contentious by nature. Unfortunately. ^.^;;

I completely relate to you here -- I actually had to pull out of my first role-play on this site (it was in 'casual') due to the amount of depth I wanted to bring to the table being too much for that particular role-play in question. There wasn't any personal issues between me and the GM, and honestly I think they're a cool guy, but I simply can't commit to a style of role-play that puts a leash on my passion for depth. There's nothing wrong with them wanting a really basic role-play -- that's simply not for me personally. One of the reasons I'm reluctant to even join role-plays in the 'casual' forum is due to being worried that what I bring will be considered 'overkill', so I completely understand your frustration.

I agree that even the smallest things can have a big impact -- like with your pocketwatch -- but there's also the literary idea of conservation of detail: if it's mentioned, it's important/relevant. It's hard to find a good balance, and you're right, there's no one correct answer.

With that pocket watch example, it's actually a somewhat important magical item (I won't spoil anything beyond that), but even if it wasn't... I still think the fact that the character is carrying one is significant. For example, the character would be able to find out what the time is, whereas someone without the pocket watch (or a wristwatch, or phone, et cetera) wouldn't be able to. In my eyes, this is a noteworthy advantage that should be included in the character sheet. However, there's more to it than that -- the fact that he's carrying a pocket watch hints at a preference for these old-fashioned or vintage pieces, as opposed a more contemporary wristwatch. It's also a subtle hint that he hates wearing anything with a tight sensation. This means that a seemingly meaningless accessory happens to actually form a realistic detail about his personality.

For all intents and purposes, I think every detail in a character's outfit - no matter how small - can attribute nuances like this that bring a character to life. These are the sorts of details that a particularly analytical character would realistically assess about someone when looking at their choice of clothing. The fact that a character has a piercing or a tattoo might be meaningless to some people, but to them these are windows into a detail about the person. This is why - as you just said yourself, and therefore we agree - it's difficult to find a good balance because whether something is important/relevant or not actually has more to do with the observer than it does the player who's role-playing the character in question whose clothing is being discussed. When it comes to matters like this, I operate under the 'school of thought' that it's better to have too much detail than not enough, which is why I'll always push for more than less in my character sheets.

Actually, I slightly disagree. A char sheet might not be necessary for a world with dozens of characters. The multi-year lore-intensive but script-style realtime rp I'm in three nights a week has...let's see. There's something like six players, and we each have two to four focus characters minimum, and then there's a bunch of recurring ones, and...yeah. So that meets the standard. However, we started without any char sheet, or possibly with a name and a brief blurb, like a character concept. And as we go, we have a forum that has a lot of the lore and try to keep it updated. Instead of character /sheets/, each of the characters has something more like a...synopsis, or a biography. No set format, no set details. It's whatever people feel is important to be remembered. Most of mine are a quick image, often a dollmaker one, or a sketch I did, and then highlights from their past covering the important points going forward, and a quick sketch of personality. I suppose you could call it a sheet, but making them felt nothing like the hassle of writing up an official sheet. *shrug* Big issue here is that they weren't made before the rp started, and stuff about new chars isn't added until after we get to know them.

There's a possibility I'm misinterpreting what you mean by 'script-style real-time role-play', since I haven't heard the term and the first thing I thought you meant was a role-play in person (so live acting role-play, basically), but now I'm more inclined to think you're talking about something akin to a chat room role-play. Keep this in mind as I respond to you, since I might not have context.

Honestly, I've never had a problem writing character sheets, but then I've been doing it for my own story characters on paper long before I got involved in role-playing on the internet. With that said, what you're describing doesn't sound all that different to a character sheet -- a character sheet is still a character sheet even if it doesn't follow a specific format. I still question whether or not I'd be able to portray the reactions of my characters towards your characters realistically based on the information in the style of synopsis you're mentioning, but I don't need to go into this in more detail since I've already dropped an anvil - per se - on this point enough times now. All I'll say is I think the biggest problem is that it's not really the person role-playing the character alone who should decide what's important and what's not important to mention about their character -- they're not the one who has to react to this character realistically. This is why character sheets that follow a more grounded format are easier for everyone to work with, not just the individual.

@tsukune
While I do agree with you that most of the views being presented here come from personal experience - that's really all that people generally have to go off, honestly - I also think that the validity of the views aren't weakened by it (I'm not saying you don't think this, since you did say everyone was making a valid point, and I certainly wasn't trying to start an argument with any of my posts in this thread -- think of it more as my personal crusade to defend the details). For example, my belief that a person can't realistically write a good response unless the details are presented to them thoroughly (though whether these details need to be presented doesn't need to inherently be in a character sheet, but I don't think we want someone describing their character in every single IC post so having a good character sheet is a better source of research material) isn't only rooted in my own experience, but from an analysis of how someone couldn't react properly without details.

The main reason it's subjective is, in my own opinion, more down to the subjectivity of which role-playing style is the best -- in a 'free' role-play it's probably not relevant that I know the tiniest detail about your facial expression to try and gauge how to react to you, but in an 'advanced' role-play this could make or break my post. The same applies to clothing. While the 'free' role-playing style is not something I could ever see myself doing, it's not 'wrong' for other writers to enjoy it.

Not sure about others, but I feel that RPing is a good place for me to experiment other aspects of writing and try out new things that it's hard to achieve in solo-storytelling.

Not the point of this thread, but I like that you mentioned this. Now's as good a time as any. I role-play primarily for three reasons:

• To write scenes with @Ailyn Evensen that will eventually become material for 'Guardian Ascension' (I guess you can think of this more as collaborative writing than outright role-playing, but we do tend to take it on with the feeling of a role-play), and therefore the role-plays are essentially the storyboarding phase done in a way that's a bit more fun.
• To experiment with ideas I feel I can get a better atmosphere of by working with other writers, which usually involves testing out a character in a role-play before I commit to considering them 'ready' to be an official character in my story, but can also be a simulation of sorts to test out the applications of a new power I have in mind -- this is the primary reason that I engage in what would be considered 'arena role-play', but I dislike the ranking system used here and prefer to think of it as a simulation rather than a competition (though, yes, you do sort of need to be trying to beat the opponent in order to fully test the limits of a new power). I believe this second reason is where you and I share motivation, based on your statement.
• To have some fun and engage in a community -- essentially the OOC is as important to me as the IC because I consider role-playing a way to grow with people and not just something I do for escapism. This last reason is very closely connected to the other two - especially the first one, since my relationship with Ailyn continually grows stronger thanks to my project allowing us to connect with each other's souls - and also happens to be one of the reasons that I prefer to role-play only with friends and not with people I'm on bad terms with. I have pretty much no interest in role-playing just for its own sake -- to me, role-playing is a way to share my soul with the people who would consider me a friend, and the fact that my soul is mostly rooted in 'Guardian Ascension' is why I usually (not always) only like role-playing in that setting since it's where I feel like I have the most to offer people.

Also, since you decided to give some additional input (and for once I refreshed the page before posting to actually see it):

Coming back to the topic about whether attire description is important to describing character's appearance in CS, the way the character dresses themselves is how they carry themselves, which is part of their identity. In real life, who doesn't judge others based on first impression, which includes what they wear in the first meeting? Even in job interviews, it's the sad truth that society deems outward appearance is as important as the resume to increase the chance of getting hired. Again, I'll reiterate that one doesn't need to go into too much detail such as exact color, brand, cloth type, down to the seam of the clothing when describing the attire, just enough to bring out the personality and other hidden beliefs of the character, which are the more important stuff about the character.

This offers more good points about what I meant when I said you needed more information about the character's clothing in order to make a realistic portrayal of your reaction. Even if we don't take analytical and tactical elements into the equation - such as looking at person's outfit for potential weapons or indications about their personality - it's also an unfortunate fact that people in real life get stereotyped and judged on their appearance all the time.

People usually make very poor judgements about me in person due to the way I look -- thanks to my 'Einstein hair', tendency to have stubble, and my ethnicity, I usually get stereotyped as a nutjob or a drug dealer. I'll be honest here... There's a fair argument that they're not wrong about the first one, but the second one... seriously...? I've never fucking touched drugs in my life, let alone sold them. I've never even smoked or really had alcohol before. I'm not saying that stereotyping is 'right', but it is realistic. I think the only reason people don't assume I'm a homeless person sometimes is because I'm usually wearing a dress shirt (not that I wear it in a very formal manner -- I really don't).

Just for the record -- that aforementioned detail about the pocket watch? That's actually based on me in real life. I personally carry one around with me a lot of the time, due to liking them and also due to hating wristwatches/tight sensations.

While I don't like to debate unless it serves a purpose (if anyone thinks I'm actually arguing in my posts, they're wrong -- this is all just meant to be food for thought), I will play the 'Devil's advocate' here. I think emphasizing the colour of a character's outfit is a very important detail that shouldn't be missed unless the observer happens to be colour blind (depending on the severity). You can also make an assessment about someone's personality to an extent depending on the brand of clothing they're wearing, and also whether the clothing has a certain logo on it (I actually use this latter detail as a bit of foreshadowing at one point very early on in my story). I'm not saying I need to know exactly what material the buttons or seams of your clothing are made of (though, to be fair, I could imagine certain powers or certain tactical details requiring this information), even if a do personally find wearing certain materials uncomfortable (an interesting bit of trivia that could be added to a character's personality), but having as much information about who I'm looking at just makes the character more realistic to me.

I think there's a ying and yang for all things. Too little description and the character feels blank, too much description and people start skimming or the scene slows down. I guess that's what makes writing art.

All I really want to know is the character's name, roughly how they look, their non-combat skills (something sorely under spoken for in this topic), and maybe a brief description of their past, just to get to know them better. It doesn't have to be their super secret past, just what the neighbor picked up from them.

Another interesting trend on another forum I saw was that someone actually wrote a post for the bio. It was a sort of mini adventure with the character in it that had nothing to do with the RP. After that, everyone started doing it. What a great way to sample someone's writing ability and see how a character acts.

@BrokenPromise
I won't keep beating a dead horse, per se. We've already gone into a lot of detail here about how not having enough description will make people unable to role-play reactions to a character realistically. We've also gone into how whether or not a person stops reading due to something being 'too long' is more a problem reader and not the content (people who want less description should role-play with each other, people who want more description should role-play with each other -- pretty simple).

With this in mind, I see it as less a matter of yin and yang and more a matter of people with different subjective attitudes towards these things being better off not role-playing together instead of trying to police how people should or shouldn't write in the name of 'balance'. There's nothing wrong with people wanting very in-depth character sheets - with a lot of information on a variety of categories - but people who don't want them should avoid role-playing with people who do and vice versa. It'd save a lot of meaningless bickering. You're right when you say writing is art -- that means people should stop telling each other how to be an artist and just leave a piece of writing alone if it's not their tastes, rather than try to play critic with something they don't specialize in. It's like someone who writes picture books for children trying to tell someone how to write a novel, or vice versa.

That out of the way, I'm gonna keep this short-ish and give my thoughts on the couple of new details listed here.

their non-combat skills (something sorely under spoken for in this topic)

Honestly, any well-thought-out 'Personality' section will include this information. Lacking the combat skills - on the other hand - just creates serious problems down the line, as we've actually discussed in another thread and therefore I don't see a need to bring it up again. Nevertheless, I've always included these in my profiles, so I agree with you about them being important.

Another interesting trend on another forum I saw was that someone actually wrote a post for the bio. It was a sort of mini adventure with the character in it that had nothing to do with the RP. After that, everyone started doing it. What a great way to sample someone's writing ability and see how a character acts.

A decent 'RP Sample' (a staple on the forums I come from) section post will be able to do what you've described, but just because someone can write a role-play sample doesn't mean they automatically know how to write a character perfectly. I could probably write up a reasonable role-play sample for any fictional character you could throw the name of my way if I have an hour to research them, but that doesn't mean I know that character as well as the author does, or as well as the author could by fleshing them out more. Writing up an in-depth character sheet is the only way to actually prove you know your character like a fully fleshed out person -- frankly, when people claim otherwise it's unappreciative to - even insulting to - the people who actually take the time to do so.

Naturally, as always you should take everything I'm saying here as food for people's thought, not an argument. I keep making a point that all of this is subjective and people should stop trying to butt into how other people want to write, since there's plenty of other people they can role-play with.

My short answer to the question of this thread about whether or not people are writing character sheets wrong? Simple -- no, they're not, because there's no 'right' or 'wrong' way to write a character sheet, only the 'right' or 'wrong' audience for that character sheet, and no self-respecting writer is going to compromise how detailed they want to be in order to please people.

I'm not a fan of using images, particularly real-person/celebrity pictures, because I tend to feel miffed at how every character in a supposedly "realistic" RP looks overly fabulous in such setting. Also, unless I draw out the characters myself, most illustrations don't truly reflect the image of the characters I have in mind. Using text gives rise to ambiguity, so it tests the writer's ability to describe a character's appearance with just about enough information for the others to get a good grasp but without being too contrived and specific (which can kill the imagination of others).

This, so much this.

I'm actually finding it somewhat of a turn off for joining games where every character has a picture of a well-made up and presentable real person, be they an actor or model or whatever, and have that describe them as a dirty peasant who just happens to look like a sex symbol. I'm more more inclined to use text only where possible, because I've found even in games where I'm trying to find art, I never find anything resembling what my character should look like unless they're intentionally ambiguous or are a species that looks nearly identical to one another. I also think it's kind of shitty when people use other people's art without crediting them, because I know if I were an artist and I found someone using my art without giving me credit, I'd be pretty miffed.

ANYWAYS, BACK ON TOPIC WHEEEEEEEEE

Character sheets don't exactly have an exact formula and it depends on GM preferences, as you know; a lot can vary between one to the next, other than having specifics about names, ages, physical appearance, etc. From that alone, there's no set right or wrong way to do it.

As I mentioned in that Boy and Girl thread I am not a fan of having Sexuality listed as one of the fields to fill out in a character sheet. Unless you're playing a group romance roleplay or a smut based roleplay... why is it necessary? You should never set out in most roleplays with the intention of your character hooking up with another character, and all the sexuality field does is emphasize that's what you're after and plays matchmaker between characters with matching sexual preferences before the game even starts. That's going to make them gravitate towards each other more than other characters, sometimes at the expense of meaningful interaction, and make the romance seem extremely forced and pre-determined. If your character takes interest in another character, express that in game through their words and actions and see how it all develops. Don't get me wrong, I love romances in roleplays and I can appreciate how crappy it can be for LGBT people to try and find people of a similar orientation, but for most roleplays, your primary goal shouldn't be trying to tie your character up in a romance, especially when something like a life threatening quest is the order of the day.

"Oh yeah, I am one of the chosen heroes of legend or whatever... by the way, I'm gay/straight/into werewolves and I know that every day could be our last and I'll barely get to know any of you, but who else wants to cuddle by the campfire at night? Any takers? Oh, you want to know my skills, haha, that's funny."

I know. Gross exaggeration, but you get the point.

Onto stuff like clothing, usually I keep that in the character description because I treat it as the initial appearance of a character, and clothing is an expression of personality, status, wealth, experience... all sorts of stuff. It tells you a lot about a character at a glance, and no one wants to memorize each character having five different outfits. I am willing to wager that most roleplayers (myself included) couldn't begin to describe what another character's outfit looks like off the top of their head without referencing it. Sure, it's a suspension of disbelief that they wear the same outfit each day (and let's be honest, in some fantasy settings, that's totally appropriate), but you kind of have to take liberties with this medium.

Things need to be easy for people to recall and remember and reference, just like you really shouldn't be playing anti-social loner characters who go against the grain in group settings because literally no one will want to interact with them and probably lead to the player dropping out due to feeling excluded and unpopular.

(An aside, on that note, I've literally seen roleplays where a player tried to make their character go literally in the opposite direction to one city when the game is set in another that was outlined in the OOC and made a huge stink about not having any freedom of choice. Do NOT make a character for a roleplay that has values and traits that will make them incompatible with an RP setting, it shouldn't have to be said, but I see it way too often.)

Does this mean your character can't ever get new clothes or change outfits? Of course not. You can describe different outfits in their inventory, or even update their appearance in the character sheet if you felt so inclined. The important thing is describing the outfit in a scene so everyone knows that your character changed into a suit from his traveling attire or whatever so they know what to visualize.

On that note, there's some articles of clothing or accessories specific to a character that are extremely personal and symbolic in nature or related to their culture and never really change, so they absolutely belong in the Appearance field. For instance, I have a character that wears amulets that are religious in nature and wears a bandana all the time that's pretty much a part of him, kinda like how Marcus Fenix from Gears of War always wears a do-rag. This character also wears robes that are specific to his culture and aren't really available in local stores.

As for inventory and skills, it all goes down to the particular game and character sheet, but it's safe to say, anything your character has listed in inventory can be left behind for a scene. Your AK-toting example, for instance, probably wouldn't carry it literally everywhere he goes (like the middle of a peaceful city), but he has access to it most of the time.

Also, by having a fleshed out and consistent inventory that only gets edited when gear is used or acquired and skills outlined prevents players from pulling a fast one and suddenly having items that weren't previously disclosed.

Imagine, if you will, a character is in a room without a weapon and a bunch of baddies break in, and the whole scenario is put together to show how your character will resolve an encounter unarmed. Then the poster says they pulled out a gun from their gear bag that they "kept hidden for situations such as this".

For this reason, with my games, I have gear limits and tiers. Everything a character owns when traveling is disclosed, and for cases like my Elder Scrolls roleplays, only common or reasonably obtainable weapons and gear are permitted, because if you don't restrict people, you'll have that one asshole who is like "And they have full Daedric armour and weaponry lol".

Basically, character sheets act as a shield that prevent people from pulling a fast one on the GMs and game at large. Most roleplayers are pretty upstanding, but rather than inviting argument of players doing something against an unwritten rule, cover your ass ahead of time and say this and that are forbidden to keep everyone on the same page, no excuses.