Ok, I should have my character sheet up by tonight. For the Forest Clans, I was thinking that they specifically hate the Kingdom of Cawanor and especially the De Raimier due to the House's mining businesses attempting to move operations across the mountains and infringing on land belonging to the Clans. Also, is it possible if the Clans have a separate religion from the rest of Formaroth?
@chayden13 Indeed the clans do have a separate religion and a different language if you wish. Also on the subject of the clans hating the De Reimer family, another reason could be this: Originally the mountains of Cawanor were home to a clan called 'The Risen'. The Risen clan were a clan of inhumanely large tribesmen who were famed for their height and strength. As the mining operations of Cawanor moved deeper into the mountains the clan started to attack the miners as they were infringing on their land, leading to a war between the kingdom of Cawanor and the risen tribesmen. Though the risen clan put up a worthy fight they were betrayed by the clan leaders eldest son (Ulf) and were wiped out by the traitors who sided with Ulf and the Cawanor military. The traitors were given massive amounts of gold and now serve as bodyguards in Cawaport for Patrick. The leader Ulf became Isabel De Reimer's personal bodyguard.
The risen clan could have been on good terms with the Forrest clans given them another good reason for hating the De Reimers.
That sounds perfect! That is actually the exact connection that I needed. The twins can be members of the Risen clan and that is why they have the personal hatred for the De Raimier.
Family House Name: Arhmahk Kingdom Location: The Legon Forest Crest: A black bear on a field of green Family Motto: “We rise in fire and blood” Relations with other Kingdoms: The newborn High Clandom of Legon does not have very good relations with the other nations of Formaroth. For centuries, the clans have remained secluded within the Legon Forest, without any interaction with the outside world. What little little interaction there has been is violent, as a clan will occasionally decide to surge forth out of the forest or across the mountains to raid and pillage its neighbors. Family Reputation: There is little known of the Clan Arhmahk. Not even the other clans of the Legon Forest know much about them, as it is a newborn clan. However, what stories that have circulated within the Forest and into the neighboring nations are enough to strike fear into the hearts of the most courageous of men. They are said to be bloodthirsty savages, created for the sole purpose of killing. There are tales that they have slaughtered entire villages, men, women, and children all. It is said that they carry the heads of their enemies at their belts or hanging from their spear shafts. Whether or not these rumours are true remain to be seen, yet they have managed to make a name for this fledgling clan. Main Export of Goods: The Legon Forest’s main natural resource is timber, as Legon is the single largest forest in all of Formaroth. The entire clandom is completely covered in forest. However, this timber is largely untouched, as the clan’s religion considers the forest holy and that trees should only felled out of utmost necessity and never in wanton excess. The Clandom also has extremely large ore deposits, possibly the largest in the world, due to it being situated between three major mountain ranges. However, the industry level of the Legon clans is relatively low and so much of these stores have not been tapped, especially not on the level of its neighbors, such as Cawanor. What the clans are truly known for is their craftsmanship. They are one of the most skilled smithers in Formaroth. The metalworks that they create are of no equal. From weapons to jewelry, the Legon smithy’s create some of the finest quality goods. The Forest also are known for their furs, as there is are large amounts of game within Legon. Description of Kingdom: The High Clandom is extremely unique from the other nations of Formaroth. It is located in the center of three separate mountain ranges and so is largely secluded from the rest of its neighbors. Not to mention the fact that the entire nation is covered by forest. These natural surroundings has isolated Legon from the rest of Formaroth.
The High Clandom is also unique in the fact that is a nation that has literally just been born. For centuries, the clans of Legon have lived independently. For the most part they have been peaceful, with only occasional clan wars over blood feuds and land disagreements. Yet that all changed in the past three years. Three years before the death of King John Remonnet, two twins by the name of Ciarán and Ciara Arhmahk appeared. Little was known of them and yet they claimed to be the leaders of the Clan Arhmahk, a clan that had never been heard before. Most of the other clans ignored them, thinking nothing of them. Yet before long, the clan had developed a sizable following and had conquered the other clans, one by one. Eventually, enough of the clans were united around the Arhmahk twins where they declared themselves the leader of the newborn nation, the High Clandom of Legon, with themselves as the joint High Chiefs.
The High Clandom is a newborn nation, comprised of dozens of different clans. Despite the fact that the clans are used to their independence and have spent generations fighting amongst one another, the twins have been able to maintain control over their subjects surprisingly well. They have united the people of Legon behind the desire to become a major force in Formaroth and even more so by their hate for the surrounding nations, especially Cawanor.
The Clandom is a largely military based people. They are warriors and fighters, well skilled in the ways of killing. They are also huntsmen, as due to the dense forestry of Legon, there is little to no agriculture. As a result, nearly every Legonian is a capable hunter, as that is often the best and only way to provide food. There is no distinct nobility within the clans, however there are a number of clans more powerful than others. The power of a clan is usually demonstrated by the amount, size, and craftsmanship of jewelry borne by members of clans. Family Background: The Clan Arhmahk is a newborn clan, only a few years older than the High Clandom itself. The Clan had never been heard of before, as it was created by the twins Ciarán and Ciara. They had gathered a number of different followers from a number of different clans and so formed their own. Nothing was heard of the twins before the Clan Arhmahk began its conquest of the Legon Forest clans.
The reason why nothing has been heard of Ciarán and Ciara is because they are believed to be dead. Once, when they were children, they were members of the Clan Risen. The Clan Risen were powerful warriors, renown for their size and strength. They were skilled warriors, unlike any others. They were one of the clans that most often raided into the neighboring kingdom of Cawanor. However, the forces of Cawanor began to push back. Cawanese mining operations, owned by the De Remier family, began to spread further into the mountains that marked the border between Cawanor and Legon, exploiting the untapped resources of the mountains. Eventually, they pushed into the land belonging to the Clan Risen. Viscous fighting began as the clansmen ferociously defended their home.
At first, the Legonians seemed to be winning. Their guerilla tactics and advanced knowledge of the land gave them a great advantage, and they inflicted heavy casualties into the Cawanese. Unfortunately, the Clan Risen were betrayed by one of their own. Ulf, the son of the clan’s chief, betrayed them and revealed the location of the clan’s home. Under the cover of nightfall, Ulf, traitors loyal to him, and troops under the banner of the De Remier attacked the Clan Risen’s village. The clansmen were taken by surprised and slaughtered in their homes. The entire village was burnt to the ground and the Clan Risen was wiped off the face of the earth.
There were very few survivors. The only known survivors of the betrayal were the young twin children of the Clan Risen’s chief and their uncle, who smuggled them out of the dying village. The twins, Ciarán and Ciara, were trained and taught by their uncle, who taught them how to fight and how to hunt and the ways of the warrior. Most of all, he inspired a deep hatred for the De Remier and the Cawanese, and for them to seek revenge upon their elder brother for his betrayal upon his own family and people.
As the twins grew older, their prowess as warriors began to grow. They began to develop a following and they raided into Cawanor, along with other nations and even other clans. Eventually, when they had built a large enough following, they declared themselves their own Clan, the Clan Arhmahk, which means revenge in Legonian, and began their conquest of the surrounding clans. Now, they have conquered Legon and declared themselves the joint High Chiefs of the High Clandom of Legon. Claim to the Throne/House Motives: The Arhmahks are driven by the ultimate goal of claiming their revenge for the death of their clan. They wish to descend upon Cawanor and to set it to the torch. They want to see the heads of the De Remier family upon spikes and to keep them as their own personal trophies. Most of all, they want to bring their elder brother Ulf to justice, who is currently the bodyguard for Isabel De Remier. However, the two also have larger goals. They see themselves and the clans of the Legon Forest descending upon the rest of Formaroth, conquering the land in a wave of fire and blood.
Family Members Name: Ciarán Arhmahk Age: 23 Gender: Male Sexual Orientation: Heterosexual Position: High Chief of the High Clandom of Legon, Chief of the Clan Arhmahk Personality: Ciarán is the stereotypical representation of a clansman. He is loud and boisterous, often bellowing his own accomplishments or bawdy jokes. He has a crude sense of humor, that of a soldier. Yet he constantly has a smile on his face and is almost always in a good mood. It is said about him that he always has a smile on his lips, a joke on his tongue, and a laugh in his heart. Ciarán is a wild, carefree spirit. He lives in the moment, thinking of the here and now rather than brooding on the future.
Ciarán is also extremely violent, as he is just as likely to take what he wants through force than to ask for it. However, he is not cruel. He does not take any perverse pleasure in causing harm to others. While he does greatly enjoy the thrills of battle and even that of killing another man, he is not evil and is generally considered a good man.
He is also arrogant and wields himself with an air of confidence and superiority. However, he has the utmost respect and admiration of his men. They see him as one of their own, as a brother, rather than simply a ruler who orders them where to fight. He is extremely loyal to those who fight for him and is willing to lay down his life for them, as they are for him. He is extremely courageous as well, and is considered to have the heart of a lion.
Despite Ciarán’s harsh and crude nature, he is not an idiot. In fact, he is an extremely smart man. While he prefers to live in the moment, he is skilled in planning his next step of action. He is a master strategist and tactician and he is able to hold his own in a duel of wits and intelligence with any man. Appearance: Ciarán is of an immense size. He towers above any other man, standing at nearly 6’8. He is well-built, with muscles rippling all across his body. He is as strong as an ox and it is said that he once wrestled with a bear with his own bare hands. His strength and stature is due to his being born of the Clan Risen, who were known for their size and prowess.
Ciarán is also devilishly handsome. His hair is a bright red, the color of the sky on fire at dawn or sunset. His golden-red locks fall in wild curls from his head. His skin is extremely fair, as is most of the clansmen of Legon. His face is dotted with a number of freckles, which makes him appear even younger than he already is, which deeply contrasts his intimidating size. A surprisingly well-trimmed beard lines Ciarán’s face, the same fire color as his hair. However, the most striking part of Ciarán’s appearance, even despite his height, is his eyes. His eyes are an icy blue, the color of a mountain spring. They glitter with intelligence and laughter, yet what is truly stunning is that they have a sharpness to them, as if they are capable of piercing into the very souls of any of those they gaze upon. Skills: Expert warrior (skilled with all weapons, yet primarily uses hatchets, battle axes, spears, and occasionally swords), Master Strategist, Master Leader, Weaknesses: Poor Politician: Ciarán is not a politician. He is a warrior, well versed in the ways of fighting and battle. He cares not for the intrigue and political backstabbing that makes up the ways of the court.
Poor Ruler: While Ciarán is an excellent leader, capable of inspiring men to commit acts of heroism and bravery on the battlefield, he is a pitiful ruler. He does not understand the logistics it takes to rule a kingdom and has little patience for the trivialities and micromanagement it takes to be a king, or in his case, a High King.
Lustful: Ciarán is unfortunately afflicted with the illness of often thinking with his loins than with his head. If he finds a woman that he finds attractive, he will stop at nothing to have her for himself. While these flings do not often last very long, they consume much of his thinking and his efforts and has often led him into a tough situation or two. Background: Ciarán is the son of the man who had once been the Chief of the Clan Risen, before he was betrayed by his own son and slaughtered by Cawanese forces. Ciarán and his twin sister, Ciara, along with their uncle, were the only two survivors of the massacre of their people. Ciarán and his sister were only eight at the time of the attack. From that point on, he and his sister were taught how to fight and how to hate. Eventually, the two set out into the world as warriors, gaining a following of other warriors. Eventually, the two declared themselves the Chiefs of their own clan, Clan Arhmahk, and began to conquer other clans within Legon. Now, he is the co-ruler of the High Clandom of Legon and is poised to descend upon the rest of Formaroth, with hate heavy in his heart and revenge blinding his vision.
Name: Ciara Arhmahk Age: 23 Gender: Female Sexual Orientation: Bisexual Position: High Chief of the High Clandom of Legon, Chief of Clan Arhmahk Personality: Ciara is extremely similar to her brother in personality. She too, is a free and wild spirit. She is as loud and confident as any other man. She often makes it a point to drive home the fact that she is equal to other men, if not superior. She is strong-willed and stubborn and used to getting her own way. This is not due to others spoiling her so, but her making thing happen as she wishes them to.
While Ciara is also wild and carefree, she is not as amiable as her brother. She is oftentimes more withdrawn and serious. Rather than adopt her brother’s “live-in-the-moment” ideology, she is oftentimes obsessing over plans and strategies for the future. Ciara is also a lot more cruel than her brother. While not necessarily evil, she is much more willing to do something...unsatisfactory in order to accomplish her goals than Ciarán would be willing to do.
Ciara is unwilling to let many people grow close to her. The only people she truly cares for is Ciarán, her uncle, and a small number of loyal and steadfast friends who have proved themselves through years of combat and camaraderie. Appearance: Ciara is the female version of Ciarán. Her body is taller than average women and even the majority of men, standing at roughly 6’2. Her physique is slender and curvaceous, ripe with the desirable assets of women. However, this appearance should not fool one. She is as strong as any man and has never been defeated in an arm-wrestling match. While her brother is stronger than her, she is not far behind him and has never found an equal opponent.
Ciara’s hair is just as red as her brothers, falling in crimson waves down her back. She grows her hair out long, as it ends at the small of her back. Her skin is even fairer than Ciarán’s and covered in even more freckles. She shares the same piercing blue eyes, capable of tearing into a man’s very soul. Skills: Expert warrior (Primarily wields a longbow, shield, and a longsword, though is more than capable with any other weapon), Adept strategist, Master leader Weaknesses:
Fear-Inspiring: While Ciarán leads his men through adoration and loyalty, Ciara leads through fear. Not that her men do not care for her as a leader or that they wouldn’t follow her to the ends of the earth, but she is an effective leader due to the fear she strikes in her men rather than the brotherhood her own brother forms with his own followers.
Fierce Temper: Ciara has a fierce temper. She is very quick to anger and she is not someone who should be taken lightly. Once angered, she enters into a berserker mode of sorts, turning on anyone in her path. Her anger is something that gives men nightmares.
Alcoholic: Ciara has a specific taste for alcohol. She loves for the most fiery of spirits, enjoying the deep, burning sensation as it slides down her throat. While she is not to the point of being incapacitated by the drink, it is an affection that could eventually develop into something worrisome.
Background: Ciara is the daughter of the man who had once been the Chief of the Clan Risen, before he was betrayed by his own son and slaughtered by Cawanese forces. Ciara and her twin brother, Ciarán, along with their uncle, were the only two survivors of the massacre of their people. Ciara and her brother were only eight at the time of the attack. From that point on, she and her brother were taught how to fight and how to hate. Eventually, the two set out into the world as warriors, gaining a following of other warriors. Eventually, the two declared themselves the Chiefs of their own clan, Clan Arhmahk, and began to conquer other clans within Legon. Now, she is the co-ruler of the High Clandom of Legon and is poised to descend upon the rest of Formaroth, with hate heavy in her heart and revenge blinding her vision.
We do have a few questions for sheet that you could think on, either clarifying or changing as fits for you... Just some thoughts, as this is Duncan's RP, not one of ours.
For the exports on the family...
Main Export of Goods: The Legon Forest’s main natural resource is timber, as Legon is the single largest forest in all of Formaroth. The entire clandom is completely covered in forest. However, this timber is largely untouched, as the clan’s religion considers the forest holy and that trees should only felled out of utmost necessity and never in wanton excess.
The Clandom also has extremely large ore deposits, possibly the largest in the world, due to it being situated between three major mountain ranges. However, the industry level of the Legon clans is relatively low and so much of these stores have not been tapped, especially not on the level of its neighbors, such as Cawanor.
What the clans are truly known for is their craftsmanship. They are one of the most skilled smithers in Formaroth. The metalworks that they create are of no equal. From weapons to jewelry, the Legon smithy’s create some of the finest quality goods. The Forest also are known for their furs, as there is are large amounts of game within Legon.
They've got more timber than anyone else, but they don't export it. They've got vast amounts of mineral ores, but they have no large industry for using it. Then they're famous for their craftsmen and smiths, having some of the best of these in Formaroth.
How does these last two add together? Is it that they make some of the best weapons available, but they only make a few each year? Do they only make for personal use? Or is it something else?
From our experience, expert smiths and craftsmen usually requires a fairly decent supporting industry. That does not mean, of course, that this is the only possible solution.
Jewelry usually requires precious metals, but it could also use gems. Mining for such requires industry, as would panning it from rivers. Refining gems is especially demanding. Or do they trade for such? if so, what do they trade away to get gems and such?
Which nations/families do they trade with?
What sort of armor do the people in this nation produce? Do they have the necessary industry to produce scale or plate mail? Chain mail? Or only leather-based stuff?
We suppose that others, like @Klomster, could delve better into weapons skills, but it does seem like being expert with all three of longbow, longsword and shield would be pretty demanding of any warrior, as we think they require fairly different training regimens.
We see lots of interesting potential here, though. We would recommend reading over after composing text, as that tends to root out more of those pesky errors that sneak into sheets when the author forgets to keep an eye or three open.
I checked the skills, seeing how most have written their skills (myself included, guilty as charged) most have described a rather high level of expertise in fighting.
Most characters being either masters or experts.
However these clanspeople have reasonable reason to be skilled in bows and hand to hand. They are not described as being ridiculously skilled with weapons. (Like my character, might have gone a bit overboard there, sorry.) My only pondering is the longsword. Longsword is a rather noble weapon, as in it's most common for nobles to have it. Historically the weapon starts out as an almost legendary thing to in the late medieval ages being more like a sign of wealth. Formaroth seems to be in a somewhat 1400-esque setting, meaning the longsword is far from a legendary thing, but historically it's usually the weapon of nobility.
I don't question the longsword per se, i'm just wondering where she got hold of it and if her training with it is more of a regular sword training or if it's more like its two-handed use. Reading her skills it seems like she uses it with a shield, suggesting she doesn't really use it two-handed. However if one learns a weapon, one can usually use it rather broadly. So if someone would challenge her to a duel, she would do fine using it two-handed. However i assume that shields are a culturally important symbol like for the vikings. In their duels they would bring 3 shields, the first to have all his shields broken lost the duel.
Seeing that their culture widely uses the bow and shield, i'd guess it's seen as a must have equipment, up to a symbolic piece of equipment. The shield the only thing that really protects a warrior from the skilled archers.
What it boils down to is that a longsword isn't the optimum weapon combined with a shield. It's often more useful to have a slightly shorter blade. However while the longsword is perfectly usable as a one-handed blade. It is still a one and a half handed sword.
I am actually a bit more into the thoughts Ellri brought up. "They've got more timber than anyone else, but they don't export it. They've got vast amounts of mineral ores, but they have no large industry for using it. Then they're famous for their craftsmen and smiths, having some of the best of these in Formaroth."
If that is changed to more of a artisan description, while they don't produce many weapons and artworks, the craftsmen have an impressive artistic skill and little resource waste. A distinct style of jewelry and decoration, beautiful wood carvings which fetch a hefty sum for collectors because of their exotic nature. I think that fits in with the forest clan style.
I guess it's a matter of feeling, when the clansmen was described as "They are one of the most skilled smithers in Formaroth. The metalworks that they create are of no equal. From weapons to jewelry, the Legon smithy’s create some of the finest quality goods" one sort of gets the feeling that they have large foundries where they create really awesome weapons, and lots of them.
It could also be just a matter of misunderstanding here. Perhaps the idea was more of the artistic approach.
@chayden13 Very good character sheet, but there are a couple of edits needed. Namely the ones that Klom and Ellri have pointed out.
I agree with Klom and Ellri on the point about the smiting. It is unlikely that groups of Forrest clans will be on par with major kingdoms in terms of smithing. Particuarly the smiths of Cawanor or Alenius who's smithing is part of the backbone of their economy. While it isn't unlikely that tribes would know of the art of smithing it is unlikely they would be able to perfect it or even get it up to a good standard. It is more likely that their ironwork would be rather shoddy, at least in comparison to the kingdoms. If certain character have good quality weapons or Armour then I imagine it would have been stolen from a neighboring kingdom.
Other than that good character sheet. Once the edit's have been made feel free to add it to the character tab.
Thank you guys for the advice. I was working on it late last night so unfortunately some mistakes slipped through the cracks. Thanks for helping edit the sheets. I completely understand the points that you guys are making. First, for the lumber, I was imagining that the Clans' religion was largely focused around the their forests, as the gods or possibly their ancestors embody those trees. As a result, trees are only felled out of extreme necessity, such as to build homes or tools or such. So, because of their religion, they don't export lumber on a large scale. However, if you think this doesn't make much sense and should be changed, then I'd be more than happy to. As for mining, I think I will change, at least a little bit. I meant to deomstrate that they didn't have as large an industry as other nations, especially since they are not as centralized. However, they do have some individual mines, so as to provide the ore for their craftsmanship. As for that craftsmanship, I imagined the tribes as being a combination of the Gaels, the Celts and the Vikings. The Celts, especially during the early Dark Ages, were skilled craftsmen and had fine jewelry, though they weren't nearly as industrialized as the Romans. That's kinda what I was going for, as though they do not have mass foundries and infrastructure, they have the artisan approach and that many of the individual blacksmiths are extremely skilled. However, this is largely based off of Celtic society before the 1000's, so if you don't believe it would fit well into the rest of the Formaroth technology level I'll change it.
As for the character's skills, I would like to apologize. I felt bad using the "master warrior" cliche, especially since it has been used multiple times already in this rp, however I felt it best fit the Clans culture and the characters backstory. With the long sword, again I was imagining Celtic culture during the Dark Ages, when at the time the Celtic "longsword" was much shorter than that of the Middle Ages variety. However, these were made with Iron, before steel, and so does not entirely fit with Formaroth if it is equivalent to 1400's Europe. Again, if you think I should change it than I'd be more than willing to.
@chayden13 Ah, as i suspected. You are going for the route i thought you were.
Perhaps a select few of your smiths can make swords like this one?
Pattern welded swords, it was the shit before spanish steel. It was tougher, more flexible and lighter than regular iron swords. Just better in every way. (And they look great too!)
Thing with them is that they take a lot of time and skill to make, and when spanish steel came along the old ways was not practical. Since spanish steel is just better steel on a large scale. Pattern welding is primarily to circumvent poor materials, when the material is good to begin with that isn't necessary.
In Formaroth the equivalent of spanish steel might be Cawanor or Alenius steel. (I myself like the sound of Cawanor steel.) In medieval europe the spanish steel became the standard for basically all weapons. IIRC spanish steel might be a more modern terminology, and might not be what the medieval people called it. It basically boils down to if Duncan likes to call it something special. Otherwise it would just be "steel", everyone does it in that way. Does it have a special name? Probably some nerdy metallurgy people who argues over the name and origins. Does anyone care apart from those? Nope.
Another name for pattern welding is Damascus steel. A technique that skilled smiths can do. If they have the knowledge. It's not a complex technique, it's just that you need to know how it works. And as with all things, knowing a skill and mastering it are two very different things. There might be a few smiths here and there outside the forests who can do it. Mostly because some smiths tend to (historically) be heavily family oriented, hanging on to old traditions. Or some smith might have travelled to a clan and witnessed how it was done. Now selling similar blades to people who like the look of the blades.
As for the misunderstanding with long swords and whatnot. She has a sword. It's a nice sword :)
(One can nerd down with terminologies for swords all day long, what one calls a longsword another will call a bastard sword. While both might be correct to some degree it seldom matters. And as far as i know even museum personnel often have different opinions. Making the whole affair even more tedious.)
I spoke with Phoenix yesterday - he is with family doing end of year family Christmasy things, thus somewhat lacking in time...
I seem to be taking Echo a bit for granted these days.
Yes, I'm still around. Exams are over, passed all my classes, but there was a period of time of packing and returning home!
And now that I'm home family and friends have suddenly appeared and have eaten up much of my non-sleep time.
I have time enough to respond and write up a post or two, in the evenings, should the need be there. I will try and check the guild at least once a day for things of this nature, but, ironically enough, it seems I have less time at home than at college.
I'm curious, mostly for the sake of how my own character will react to the situation, about how the Clans treat mages...
For the most part, the Clans are accepting and kind to mages. In the Forest, they are referred to as Druids are usually the priests of the Forest Clans. As a result they have no ill will to foreign mages, though they will kill them just the same if they get in the Clans way. I'm going to add that into the bio.
I should be able to get up a sort of catch-up thing for Beatrice and Naomi during the time of the collaboration since they kind of faded out during it, and I'll do some sort of post-collab catch-up with Giles to keep things up to date.
I should be able to get it out this weekend, though the days around Christmas can be hectic... So Saturday - Monday would be the range to expect something from me, and if I don't get something out and see myself a little too busy with the family I'll let you guys know by then to pass me by this round.
That's an interesting view on mages. Far more enlightened (from a mage's perspective) than that held by a lot of people elsewhere in Formaroth. What do these clans think of how villagers and religious folks elsewhere treat mages?
Have some of their druids in the past been burned at the stake by such people? If so, how did they react?
How do they get along with the Circle (the mage school, effectively)?