I have to admit I do not disagree with @mdk's belief that the rallying cry, at least in the United States, has far more positives than negatives. Some of us still do remember the 11th of September and the period thereafter where people were for a rare time, one generally unified force. It has been many years since I have seen so many flags flown or such number of those who call themselves proud to be an American or a patriot, remarkably in a time where we are not "at war" or post tragedy. More issue was bred when people gave up that identity to pursue other things, whatever they were. Now, however? A larger and or more vocal number believe the United States is being made great again and that the identity it does have within that should be exalted and pursued; there's no complaint or disagreement here with that, I might add.

I believe people need to stop pretending that competition between countries is a bad thing. Nationalism has the potential to do terrible things, but not every vein of it, as in the case with patriotism, is an issue. There's a difference between the United States' evolution of it and say, any other country. The same could be said for them all really; it comes down to execution. I might be concerned with North Korean nationalism as it is part of their rampant indoctrination and inherently provocative militaristic nature, but I would not be so concerned with say, French nationalism. Two very different identities and brands.

In any case, the efforts to defeat collective identities and the pride in them is a futile effort. They have existed since humans, perhaps even before. Instead they should be cultivated and utilized to achieve positive ends.

@mdk You don't mean that ironically do you?

A bit tongue-in-cheek, but generally serious. Not sure which "that" you're referring to... broadly speaking, no, I'm not being ironic. Nationalism is pretty great.

I think you might be confusing patriotism with nationalism. Or, you're using nationalism in one of its lesser known definitions, I suppose, which is being patriotic. Usual nationalism is thinking your country is superior and foreigners are lesser peoples.

That's some 1984 newspeak bullshit, and the same will be done to patriotism shortly. Nationalism is pride in one's national heritage. This is good.

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

That's some 1984 newspeak bullshit, and the same will be done to patriotism shortly. Nationalism is pride in one's national heritage. This is good.

No, it's more like that's some dictionary bullshit, cuz it's the legit definition.

When I think of nationalism I think of all of the genocides, interments, mass deportations and other horrors which people have enthusiastically embraced in the name of nationalism.

Speaking as a member of the rootless cosmopolitan bourgeoisie, maybe nationalism, like religious fervor, is something that I am just incapable of understanding as I don't and have never felt it. I don't get all weepy when I see flags waving and yellow ribbons and such. I hadn't yet come to America when September 11 happened, but I was here during the end of the Bush years, all that nationalism didn't go to a great place. Problems don't go away because we wave flags, people just cover them up for a time.

@POOHEAD189

I would beg to largely differ on that particular front. Of course there are other definitions of it, as is typical with modern language, but this was the only major one I could find. Mind you I did not spend much time investigating this any further, but the only other similar result is just searching the word in Google or on Wiktionary, both of which are notoriously biased narrators.

@POOHEAD189

I would beg to largely differ on that particular front. Of course there are other definitions of it, as is typical with modern language, but this was the only major one I could find. Mind you I did not spend much time investigating this any further, but the only other similar result is just searching the word in Google or on Wiktionary, both of which are notoriously biased narrators.

But...your links prove my point in various places.

excessive patriotism; chauvinism.

exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

excessive, narrow, or jingoist patriotism; chauvinism

Plus it was literally the 2nd point on the google search.

When I think of nationalism I think of all of the genocides, interments, mass deportations and other horrors which people have enthusiastically embraced in the name of nationalism.

Speaking as a member of the rootless cosmopolitan bourgeoisie, maybe nationalism, like religious fervor, is something that I am just incapable of understanding as I don't and have never felt it. I don't get all weepy when I see flags waving and yellow ribbons and such. I hadn't yet come to America when September 11 happened, but I was here during the end of the Bush years, all that nationalism didn't go to a great place. Problems don't go away because we wave flags, people just cover them up for a time.

I can't imagine what it's like to go through those hurdles.

@POOHEAD189

They do not exclusively prove your point, not at all actually. In the context of what @mdk said, they are pretty true to the angle he was advocating. No less, I purposefully mentioned Google and discredited it because I went right to several sources of varying leanings to get the answers. Google is an excellent tool to search the internet with and learn by its results, but a very poor source in itself as with Wikipedia. They do not tell the entire truth or the contextual truth, which to some lengths is their own fault and others just the practicality or reality of the situation.

Point being, you cannot issue an "Ah-ha!" as with "No, it's more like that's some dictionary bullshit, cuz it's the legit definition." because if you take everything literally as is and out of context, without accounting for the other components involved, more so out of character for the person speaking, there's no real reason to even hold a discussion. If we devolved to that in a topic as diverse as nationalism and what people are talking about in it then we are all going to be talking about different things. Again, the particular brand of what we are discussing is not that. I am fairly certain there's no actual jingoist or narrow nationalism at hand.

The purpose of linking the results of the dictionary searches was to prove that is not the exclusive use of nationalism. It might be how people are starting to use it, certainly, as well how they do now with patriotism as a whole, but that does not make it unerringly accurate.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity I realized it was not the exclusive use for nationalism. That's why I specified he was using one of the 'lesser known definitions' when he said it was merely patriotism.

Also I assume because you replied to me and not he, you agree that Nationalism is 1984 newspeak bullshit.

@POOHEAD189

I believe that the current use of nationalism as some sort of exclusively pejorative word is newspeak. I have stated before my belief that nationalism has as much potential to do tremendous good as it can inflict harm and that there are countless forms and incarnations of it. I am under no illusion that Soviet nationalism was really positive for anyone, to include the Soviets themselves, just as I hold the same belief for nationalistic Nazi Germany. This is of course ignoring incredible discoveries and advancements of the world, because terrible acts of atrocity were committed under those banners of which nationalism was tied into; there is no denying that.

However, because nationalism in the United States is manifest most commonly by patriotism, even to some extremes, I see no real or tangible danger in it. The country that is in question has too diverse an idea of what it means to be nationalist, patriotic, or even American in practice, rather than word. It is not likely to drum up some horror like a mass genocide, even if provoked and panicked. No less, it certainly does have claim to being a "superior nation" as many First World Nations could also grasp at, although it has added elements to this proclamation that make it more credible. It is the last true superpower - not forever of course, but in this time it is still the largest and most prominent player whose competition are attempting to chase after; I am not just speaking militarily either.

Its people are diverse, from virtually any and all backgrounds, making them reasonably "the best" because of the multitude of differing cultures and ideals all the way on down to genetics. It has a history or prioritizing its citizens and state over that of others, something naturally beneficial to those who live within its confines, reasonably to some detriment of outsiders while remaining not callous to them as a whole in the process. There's minimal comparative suppression and repression of the populace, allowing even extreme forms of dissent and minority to hold very loud and at times powerful voices. So on and so forth - all luxuries in other nations, if present at all in them.

To me, it is hard to believe that more people are not somehow nationalistic or patriotic in the United States.

To me, it is hard to believe that more people are not somehow nationalistic or patriotic in the United States.

I wonder if I should technically be considered patriotic because I choose to remain in the US rather than head to one of my other options. I suppose I am patriotic about the food.

@Penny

I would not consider that to be quite the same. Others might have differing opinions on it, as I am sure they do, but to me that appears to be more closely related to opportunity, availability, and reality rather than heartfelt support for the United States. Correct me if I am wrong there as I would like to hear your actual opinion and place in patriotism or loyalties rather than be left to appearances and assumptions.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

I'm a little unsure what you mean by loyalty in this context. If you clarify I might be able to answer more clearly.

I have a transactional relationship with the government of the United States in which I bring certain skills to the country that they want. I obey it's laws and pay its taxes and as a result I'm given a number of rights and privileges (although not as many as a citizen).

I don't like or dislike the United States as an entity but I do like and dislike certain aspects of living here. As I stated the food is good and I make an excellent living. On the con side your healthcare system is a bad joke and I find large segments of the population to be politically disagreeable. Weirdly though I do find that the stereotypes of rude obnoxious American's to be somewhat overdrawn.

@Penny

Loyalty was in reference to if you claim the United States or another nation as part of your identity and allegiance, or as some do now, claim to just be "people". I mentioned it only because of your previous commentary that states you have moved from one or more nations. Not wanting to assume anything, I brought that up. Given you have a very transactional, to use your words, relationship that is as answered as it need be. To be honest, this particular feline is hardly surprised.

At least you are consistent with your record and likewise I do not believe I need give my particular and personal feelings on my perspective of the United States again. Perhaps some of the newcomers, or those rejoining, to the topic might wish to do so.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

Ok thanks for clarifying. In that case no I don't view the United States as part of my identity, nor do I have a particular attachment to any country. It is just a place I live with a particular set of advantages and challenges.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity I realized it was not the exclusive use for nationalism. That's why I specified he was using one of the 'lesser known definitions' when he said it was merely patriotism.

Also I assume because you replied to me and not he, you agree that Nationalism is 1984 newspeak bullshit.

1984 newspeak is exactly about changing the dictionary, btw. If by "one of the lesser-known definitions" you're saying "what the word used to mean, before people started fucking with it," then yeah.

I love the generous part.

Outlines their motives pretty well.

I love the generous part.

Outlines their motives pretty well.

I like where he says 'I agree' where there was nothing to agree with.

"I held the door open for a female type once and she didn't say thank you. What a cunt. They don't want a generous guy like me."