<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Okay there's a lot of holes in that one.

First, you already contradicted yourself on that matter. Assuming there's no real science, thus no real problem, behind "gender fluid" stuff. But the very same thing can be said for the entire gender spectrum.

"Special Privileges" are not given to all mental disorders. (Hell, even ones we do aren't often followed. I digress.) Nor does it grant front row to military and jobs that require the most fit and best among us to perform their duties.

We also don't try to make it -not- a mental disorder. We don't usually tell people that their delusions are real, or that the walls are really talking to them. Yes, it's not PC. But it is factual. Unlike the movement pretending depression doesn't even exist. Or people not knowing their head from their ass when it comes to the autistic spectrum. In these cases, we're trying to make it "self-identity" and all positive. Mixing it into homosexual lifestyles. But gays don't have a disturbingly high suicide rate. You don't have to give puberty blockers to three year old's, or lose custody of your children.

dailysignal.com/2018/02/19/parents-ju…

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4743036/…

Do what you want as an adult. I'm not judging you personally. But as a statistic. These numbers and the narrative being pushed and what's unfolding right now in our current culture. Instead of even trying to be honest. Is just disgusting...

I did not contradict myself. I merely revealed how you (if I read your and Harbs arguments correctly) were contradictory.

1. This is a person who has a condition that makes them feel as if they do not belong in their own body. Therefore a male with gender dysphoria who has the mind and chemical make up to make them feel as if they should be in a female body, is truly female at heart, and should be allowed in the ladies bathroom.

or

2. Perfectly normal human beings are switching up their genders, and if that is the case then that is just society, and gender has now become fluid based on the fact that perfectly rational people are well...gender fluid.

You can't have both. Which do you think it is.

- Said by most Darwin Award winners. <.<'

And scientists

@SleepingSilence

I am of the belief the current proposal in the memorandum for the President of the United States is the best course of action. In my personal opinion however, I believe any who have been extensively vetted through behavioral health and psychological evaluation should retain their position and authority. They should not be punished or removed from service in a discriminatory manner, but if found mentally unfit for service should be separated from service with a medical discharge and if need be, compensated for appropriately through the Veteran's Affairs, especially to ensure they are offered resolution to their condition, if they so choose.

I do not have an issue with them serving, but they need to be as atypical to their statistics as possible, namely in the realm of suicide and depression. Speaking from experience, deaths of this nature have catastrophic consequences to a mission and operational ends. Mitigating that as much as possible is mandatory and essential, something that has already been in the system through various other means. I myself do not believe denying most transgendered persons service in the military is any more discriminatory than denying people with issues of substance abuse or domestic violence. Some people choose these things for themselves, very few, most do not. The issue is, is that those who do not make these choices cannot just suddenly revoke it or their affects; the concept behind this is very non-discriminatory, in fact.

Serving in the armed forces is an honor one is selected for and like many things in the military, not freely handed out.

@POOHEAD189

The marginal numbers are not those supporting the transgender persons, rather the approximately transgender population itself. Even if the half of the United States population agreed and supported them, the other half would be deeply unsettled by examples as the bathroom issue.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you saying 50% of America is deeply unsettled without proof is sounding about as plausible as 3 million fraudulent votes for Hillary Clinton.

@Dynamo Frokane Maybe, just maybe. Apples aren't always comparable to oranges. It would only be the same, if both were to bring up the exact same topic. And both behaved the exact same way in regards to debates. Just the connection that neither will change any minds, doesn't instantly connect both people. So, maybe unlike "I think race is so important, muh bike". He had more to say and contribute to the idea of transgenders in military service. :)

The people themselves are not the issue so much as the impact on the role they have. Say I as a supervisor have five troops under me and I realistically need seven to do my mission per the regulation. We have an operational waiver saying we can operate with five to conduct our daily mission. One of my troops is transgendered and has a mandatory appointment weekly for a therapist, consultation, and ultimately a series of reassignment surgeries. Private Snuffy, my transgender troop, is a good soldier and does her job. I ensure she's recognized as female and treat her like a female, ensuring her peers do so as well. I have no issue with her or what she's doing.

What I have an issue with is Private Snuffy making me call in people who work other shifts to fill her slot when she's gone, because I have an instruction, regulation, or order to follow through with. I am already understaffed and am barely able to meet my mandated requirement. If I cannot find a replacement, say someone is on leave, is ill, or just worked - preventing them from working extended duty for certain occupations or mission roles - what do I do now? What do I do as a supervisor when the therapist makes recommendations I have to defer to and contact my command? What do I do when my command finds out I ended up with four people when I need five? What happens if that ends up in the documentation for an inspector?

Well I am glad you yourself would not judge the person. But why would she be gone? Is this because you assume she would have hormone therapy? I don't follow.

I did not contradict myself. I merely revealed how you (if I read your and Harbs arguments correctly) were contradictory.

1. This is a person who has a condition.

or

2. Perfectly normal human beings are switching up their genders, and if that is the case then that is just society.

You can't have both. Which do you think it is.

You certainly didn't. But are you telling me, every single person whose transgender is the same? Is it not possible, that some people have genuine gender dysphoria. And the six year old wanting to be a boy or girl, may just be wanting some attention?

So yes, you CAN have both. Some can be mentally ill. Others can be doing it for attention. But let's be frank, most people don't care about the bathroom thing. When we're talking about military jobs, there's a bigger issue at hand here. And if you want to tell me something is contradictory, I want direct quotes.

(And in all seriousness, we should absolutely not pass laws, just because we haven't tried it yet...)

@The Harbinger of Ferocity Thank you for answering my query. (Didn't have much to add, but felt rude not to acknowledge that I read your response.)

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

You certainly didn't. But are you telling me, every single person whose transgender is the same? Is it not possible, that some people have genuine gender dysphoria. And the six year old wanting to be a boy or girl, may just be wanting some attention?

So yes, you CAN have both. Some can be mentally ill. Others can be doing it for attention. But let's be frank, most people don't care about the bathroom thing. When we're talking about military jobs, there's a bigger issue at hand here. And if you want to tell me something is contradictory, I want direct quotes.

Yes you could have both in an RL context. What I mean is you can't use both to show how trans people are a problem for the bathroom/military in an argument. I want to know which you are referring to.

@POOHEAD189

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you saying 50% of America is deeply unsettled without proof is sounding about as plausible as 3 million fraudulent votes for Hillary Clinton.

That was not my claim, I in fact made no such motion toward it. It was a nod to conversation in the argument prior and apparently with a quick glance of those opposed, it is approximately 46% against, 41% in favor of. This is just me tapping on this here because that really is not the core of my argument or what I am addressing. Even then, that number is not far off from the sample of "half" or that they specifically note "Born As". As for their motives? In some way they clearly believe it to be a compromise of themselves or something they believe in. Unsettling? Maybe, but at least in part with that in mind, given they would not feel comfortable in such a case.

Well I am glad you yourself would not judge the person. But why would she be gone? Is this because you assume she would have hormone therapy? I don't follow.

There are a number of reasons she would be absent from duty but obviously not derelict, the most obvious being that she has at least frequent mental health appointments, appointments with command, interviews - mind you this is assuming prior regulations, which I am unsure if they still stipulate details as specific as essentially verifying she's not lying about her intent - and then less obvious, such as the mission in this case. Operations as the one nodded to here tend to remove people from serving in their role, at least temporarily, which again could be days, weeks, or months. This is also not including any presumed hormone therapy or reassignment surgery. In general it is better and less complicated to avoid these problems, among others, in the first place.

On another note I absolutely disagree it cannot somehow be both a thing people choose or in more serious cases, something that actually is theirs to own for woe and weal alike. The majority of this argument is centering on the military aspect, at least it was prior.

@POOHEAD189 I think I've been pretty clear on this matter...

"Special Privileges" are not given to all mental disorders. (Hell, even ones we do aren't often followed. I digress.) Nor does it grant front row to military and jobs that require the most fit and best among us to perform their duties.

We also don't try to make it -not- a mental disorder. We don't usually tell people that their delusions are real, or that the walls are really talking to them. Yes, it's not PC. But it is factual. Unlike the movement pretending depression doesn't even exist. Or people not knowing their head from their ass when it comes to the autistic spectrum. In these cases, we're trying to make it "self-identity" and all positive. Mixing it into homosexual lifestyles. But gays don't have a disturbingly high suicide rate. You don't have to give puberty blockers to three year old's, or lose custody of your children.

Do you have any proof that transgendered people make the military lesser quality.

Do you know of any treatment/medication a transgendered person can get to help them feel at home enough in their own body to have no problems as long as they take it? Do you know what it is like to walk into a room designated for a person you feel with all your being you should be, but physically aren't? Depression can be used as an analogy to gender dysphoria for a few things, but this is not one of them. Gender is far more prevalent in society and cultural outlook than whether you are depressed or not.

I think asking that question is missing the forest from the trees. Do we have proof that schizophrenics have a long track record of not being good soldiers? Well, no. Usually, because we don't let them in, in the first place.

Also, depression is a hell of a lot more important than gender politics. But that's just me, and the rising teen suicide rate talking. But we've already seen studies disprove that "acceptance" and going through with surgery/replacement therapy helps matters, when we determine their suicide rate statistics. And saying gender dysphoria is somehow much different from depression, is the kind of downplaying depression and making transgender some kind of special flower ideal, I was just talking about.

There are a number of reasons she would be absent from duty but obviously not derelict, the most obvious being that she has at least frequent mental health appointments, appointments with command, interviews - mind you this is assuming prior regulations, which I am unsure if they still stipulate details as specific as essentially verifying she's not lying about her intent - and then less obvious, such as the mission in this case. Operations as the one nodded to here tend to remove people from serving in their role, at least temporarily, which again could be days, weeks, or months. This is also not including any presumed hormone therapy or reassignment surgery. In general it is better and less complicated to avoid these problems, among others, in the first place.

On another note I absolutely disagree it cannot somehow be both a thing people choose or in more serious cases, something that actually is theirs to own for woe and weal alike. The majority of this argument is centering on the military aspect, at least it was prior.

She could also be a perfectly normal and functioning member of society

---

I think asking that question is missing the forest from the trees. Do we have proof that schizophrenics have a long track record of not being good soldiers? Well, no. Usually, because we don't let them in, in the first place.

Schizophrenics are volatile in their moods for good reason. Trans people are not.

Also, depression is a hell of a lot more important than gender politics. But that's just me, and the rising teen suicide rate talking. But we've already seen studies disprove that "acceptance" and going through with surgery/replacement therapy helps matters, when we determine their suicide rate statistics. And saying gender dysphoria is somehow much different from depression, is the kind of downplaying depression and making transgender some kind of special flower ideal, I was just talking about.

I am not downplaying depression. I have it. I am simply saying gender dysphoria can effect you far more when it comes to how society views you, and your own identity.

@SleepingSilence

Hahaha are you white knighting for harbinger because "he was one of the only people nice to me during that organised hate campaign"?

Good lord youre like a bad anime. And also butt out, I wasn't talking to you.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

I'm literally just reminding you what you told me and pointing out a contradicition, if that upsets you then maybe you should be more careul about your position when you state it. Anything else is irrelevant to me, I dont care who you argue with. You also said you were 'done' engaging with me about 4 times, but here we are.

I am not downplaying depression. I have it. I am simply saying gender dysphoria can effect you far more when it comes to how society views you, and your own identity.

I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose, or as an afront. A lot of people have depression. But saying depression can't effect how one sees themselves or how others see and think about you. Is utterly laughable. Also, people are assholes to each other for far less. My point is, we shouldn't be telling people who are depressed, to "yeah kill yourself. the world would be better off without you? Can't change your opinion on that one, how you feel isn't because your brain, it's a reality that we can't stop you from improving and getting better."

Schizophrenics are volatile in their moods for good reason. Trans people are not.

Actually, that's something I want answered. Because it always seems to be missed entirely. This protected class idea...where you can't say jokes or be rude to -this- specific group, because they cannot handle it. But, we should still totally treat them as equals. Either everyone is equal. Or we should treat others differently based on protected classes...

And the transgender community is very much apart of this double standard. You "have" to accept these people, use their preferred pronoun, let them have the bathroom they want, or you're destroying their lives. But, there is no mental problem. This is just like having the preferred sexual partner. Forget the boxing ordeal. The suicide rate. And the rest. It's a phantom concern.

(But like I said, studies show the suicide rate isn't due to discrimination. So it "being so different from depression" isn't very true at all. Doesn't matter how supportive everyone is or well off someone whose depressed may be, it can still lead to suicide. Same deal.)

Hahaha are you white knighting for harbinger because "he was one of the only people nice to me during that organised hate campaign"?

Good lord youre like a bad anime. And also butt out, I wasn't talking to you.

Nah, he wasn't around during that. But, nice try. I've met plenty of nice folks on here, that stopped coming on, due to those acting out and how they essentially got away with it. :)

And you were basically "white-knighting" for Penny by that same shallow logic...

And that was a very perplexing insult. But, no thanks. I'll have discourse with anyone, long as I keep it non-personal, like you've already failed to do.

What you said wasn't accurate, doesn't matter who you said it to.

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

Nah, he wasn't around during that. But, nice try. I've met plenty of nice folks on here, that stopped coming on, due to those acting out and how they essentially got away with it. :)

And you were basically "white-knighting" for Penny by that same shallow logic...

And that was a very perplexing insult. But, no thanks. I'll have discourse with anyone, long as I keep it non-personal, like you've already failed to do.

What you said wasn't accurate, doesn't matter who you said it to.

Didnt you make it personal when you started whining about getting the boot from my discord, your lack of self awareness is showing. That was an Ad-Hominem because it was an irrelevant insult in the context of a debate.

And I'm not white knighting Penny, I'm not criticising Harbinger for arguing with her, I'm criticising him for going back on what he said before. But he was your saviour during the 'Hate Campaign' like you actually mentioned yourself. So I guess he gets a pass.

Now youve had your discourse, so you can butt out.

Didnt you make it personal when you started whining about getting the boot from my discord, your lack of self awareness is showing. That was an Ad-Hominem because it was an irrelevant insult in the context of a debate.

And I'm not white knighting Penny, I'm not criticising Harbinger for arguing with her, I'm criticising him for going back on what he said before. But he was your saviour during the 'Hate Campaign' like you actually mentioned yourself. So I guess he gets a pass.

Now youve had your discourse, so you can butt out.

Actually, if you'll note the difference. That was before the active moderator warning. The very first thing you did was post something to completely disregard that. But, the second (and I guess third time since you've done it with Harb and me.) So I'm merely pointing out your own pattern and saying maybe stick to the substantive.

And no, you'd be 100% wrong on that again. I mean that in the least offensive way possible. The person that happened to actually do their job, had the exact same opinions on it, or at the least the people in question. Without getting into specifics. Before Harbinger was ever apart of the discord staff.

And no, you'd be 100% wrong on that again. I mean that in the least offensive way possible. The person that happened to actually do their job, had the exact same opinions on it, or at the least the people in question. Without getting into specifics. Before Harbinger was ever apart of the discord staff.

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

Let me keep this simple:

1. Harbinger said he was done trying engage with penny, and so by engaging with penny he is going back on himself. That's all I'm pointing out, the contradiction, obviously he is free to argue with whoever he wants.

2.There was never any hate campaign against you, it was just that one Troll Tulpa, everything else was in your head.

3.Nobody stalks you, Buddha hung around popular threads because he's a narccisist, you happen to also like popular threads for whatever reason so you frequently cross paths.

4. If you want your asexuality to be respected, which I think it should be, you also need to respect Trans people, their experiences and feelings are just as real as yours.

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

@Dynamo Frokane But he was your saviour during the 'Hate Campaign' like you actually mentioned yourself. So I guess he gets a pass.

Seriously now? If you "have no clue". Maybe don't make presumptions and statements like that eh?

1. Harbinger said he was done trying engage with penny, and so by engaging with penny he is going back on himself. That's all I'm pointing out, the contradiction, obviously he is free to argue with whoever he wants.

No, that's not all you did. You compared his discussion with Penny to Andy. On topics that weren't comparable. And even then, my only point was you aren't adding anything substantive arguing this. I was discussing with Harbinger and Poohead without any problems here.

2.There was never any hate campaign against you, it was just that one Troll Tulpa, everything else was in your head.

At this point you're arguing a strawman, because you're the one that brought that up out of nowhere.

3.Nobody stalks you, Buddha hung around popular threads because he's a narccisist, you happen to also like popular threads for whatever reason so you frequently cross paths.

Now, you're "white-knighting" for others. But I digress, bringing up things that aren't being discussed again. So I'm wholly disregarding how provably wrong your statements may be. Not about politics, don't bring them up. I certainly wasn't doing so. Even mentioning the discord sarcastically, at least that was a current event...

4. If you want your asexuality to be respected, which I think it should be, you also need to respect Trans people, their experiences and feelings are just as real as yours.

Me not being interested in sex at the moment, isn't a label I want stamped on my forehead and I don't want to use it like a criticism defense shield, nor weapon to get what I want. It also isn't going to effect my mental health or statistically raise my chances of suicide to a staggering degree. I've stated a plethora of times, I don't like judging anyone on shallow devices. I don't use identity politics. But that is precisely what you did, by again bringing up something non-related to the topic.

Hey POOHEAD. I like your avi. Sanosuke is pretty sweet...

_{Saito is better.}

<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

Let me keep this simple:

1. Harbinger said he was done trying engage with penny, and so by engaging with penny he is going back on himself. That's all I'm pointing out, the contradiction, obviously he is free to argue with whoever he wants.

2.There was never any hate campaign against you, it was just that one Troll Tulpa, everything else was in your head.

3.Nobody stalks you, Buddha hung around popular threads because he's a narccisist, you happen to also like popular threads for whatever reason so you frequently cross paths.

4. If you want your asexuality to be respected, which I think it should be, you also need to respect Trans people, their experiences and feelings are just as real as yours.

Uh, hey, let's leave members that can't defend themselves right now out of this.

Update: Thread closed during staff review.

Re-opened. We kindly ask everyone on this thread "clean it up" a little bit.

Stop name dropping. Stop personal attacks. Stop doing things that result in staff getting an endless parade of reports, because this thread is approaching, "Don't waste staff's time."

Happy chatting.

FiRst

Should of stayed locked.