I like the idea of Ages. The time window in Mk2 was a jury-rigged solution which was tacked on, although it has stopped people from getting too carried away and running off centuries ahead of everyone else. Implementing it from the start and giving it more mechanical and narrative weight should make it work better.

As for how it should work with technology, I have some thoughts. Ages describe what the general state of the world is, including the general level of technology which is widely available. However, we must consider how to determine what the next Age will be. The Ages should be able to be driven by player choices as with every other aspect of world-building in Divinus. Thus I propose this: Gods can spend Might to develop and share technologies (and social constructs) which are one step more advanced than the current Age. These advanced technologies stay relatively localised until the next Age. When the next Age comes about, the GM(s) will consider what has been invested in for the past Age to determine the theme for the next Age. These previously localised advanced technologies would then become widespread as the Age ticks over. The progression of an Age will also automatically fill in important technologies associated with the previous Age which have been overlooked by the gods (for instance, when we went from Stone Age to Bronze Age here in Mk 2, no one had bothered to explicitly invent agriculture despite it being very important for a sedentary lifestyle, yet it was generally assumed that towns just worked). This scheme allows for players to organically direct the progression of history and also allow for limited technological disparity between locations (which is historically common). Power and epoch gaps are controlled by only allowing civilisations to learn technologies which are no more than one step more advanced than the current Age.

As an example, consider game-play during the Stone Age. The widespread technologies involve stone tools, fire, pottery, crude fabrics such as hides, hunter-gatherer societies, and tribal social structures. A god (or group of gods) could decide to teach a particular tribe agriculture, bronze working and monarchy, allowing for the establishment of the first city. Another tribe might be blessed with simple shamanic magic. However, iron working or alchemy would be more than one step away from the Stone Age so are not valid to be taught to a civilisation during the Stone Age, even if that particular nation had already developed bronze working and cities. A god could still gift a mortal with a suit of steel armour or create a single individual able to create miraculous concoctions, but these would be singular and mighty individuals with techniques which could not be reproduced by mortals for generations to come. When it comes time for the next Age, the technologies which had been invested in during the Stone Age would become widespread, such that bronze working and city building becomes available everywhere. This does not mean that every location will use every technology, but those technologies become fair game. If the players had invested heavily in technologies we would associate with the Bronze Age, then we would declare the next Age to be the Bronze Age. But if the players invested more heavily in something else, such as magic for instance, then we might have the Age of Awakening, to reflect the 'awakening' of magical talent in many mortals across the globe. Although, really, the name for the Age is mostly arbitrary because the principle technologies associated with that Age have already been decided. When the Age advanced, we also fill in any gaps in the tech tree (so to speak), such as if we had developed towns and cities but forgotten agriculture or construction, or developed metal working but forgotten mining.

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Levels. I agree that levels are somewhat superfluous. We had identified issues with Mk 2's handling of levels when creating Godspeed. And as you observe, Godspeed's handling of levels led to everyone having fairly similar levels of power. I would support doing away with levels and instead having MP generation tied to the Age (plus generation from Holy Sites). Levels were a rather abstract concept. Front-loading Might into the first few turns also makes a lot of sense.

However, there are two functions of levels which cannot be so easily done away with. One function of levels was to provide a cap on the number of Domains and Portfolios you can have. Although you are changing the Portfolios system somewhat, you still spend Might to acquire them. One option is to have a cap which scales with the Turn number instead of level, which prevents people from gobbling up Portfolios too quickly as they are quite powerful. Another option is to remove the cap altogether and just hope that the Might cost of acquiring new Portfolios is enough to keep them in check.

The other function of levels is to provide some transition from being a demigod to being a fully-fledged god. Mk 2 has made ascension almost impossible within the lifetime of the RP for demigods by sticking the transition point at a level so high that not even the gods have approached it. To address this, Godspeed did away with the formal distinction altogether and just made a two-tiered power system with a transition at around level 3, which was much more manageable. However, if we have no levels, then we have to find a new solution, one which gives new players a relatively brief probationary period as demigods while still allowing them to ascend without waiting too long.

This transition could be tied to Spheres. A new god/demigod introduced part way through the RP would not have a Sphere to call their own. A demigod would have the creative powers of a god, but not necessarily at the same strength, and they would not gain the benefits of Spheres or the ability to freely travel between Spheres.The mark of ascension to full godhood would be creating or binding to a Sphere. But they can only do this if the Architect of the Spheres, or maybe some of the existing gods, grant them this privilege. The demigod must prove themselves down on Galbar. On the meta level, if the player shows that they can play nice, we let their character ascend (picking either a suitable god or the Architect to sponsor them in-character). We could make the standard probationary period about one Turn- too long and they might get bored; too short and the character's entrance would be jarring (one Turn is just a suggestion and could need tweaking. Maybe two could be better. It depends on how the RP paces). The player may elect to stay a demigod for longer if they wish, but the option for them to ascend would be there. The process of appeasing potential divine sponsors (and gaining favours from demigods) would also add an interesting layer to the pantheon politics.

The other option is to do away with a probationary period altogether and make all players fully fledged gods from the moment they join, regardless of when they join. This significantly lowers the barrier for new players, making it easier for them to join. However, narratively this could be quite jarring, for gods shouldn't just appear out of thin air, and the children of gods shouldn't immediately equal their parents in power. And at the meta level it increases the disruption caused by a player who arrives, makes one or two posts, then leaves. With demigods, such a player would have only a minor impact on the global narrative in their first couple of posts so their lack of commitment won't cause too much trouble. If they started as fully fledged gods, they'd potentially create an entire Sphere and build half a civilisation before disappearing, leaving global plot threads dangling. A probationary period allows us to filter out those who aren't committed or who decide that Divinus isn't for them.

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I agree with Capy's sentiment that we should emphasise that all civilisations are fair game for all gods to interact with.

As for hot-spots, I believe these will develop naturally so we have no reason to codify such a concept.

I've taken a while to ruminate all of your feedback, BBeast. It's much appreciated.

I like the idea of Ages. The time window in Mk2 was a jury-rigged solution which was tacked on, although it has stopped people from getting too carried away and running off centuries ahead of everyone else. Implementing it from the start and giving it more mechanical and narrative weight should make it work better.

As for how it should work with technology, I have some thoughts. Ages describe what the general state of the world is, including the general level of technology which is widely available. However, we must consider how to determine what the next Age will be. The Ages should be able to be driven by player choices as with every other aspect of world-building in Divinus. Thus I propose this: Gods can spend Might to develop and share technologies (and social constructs) which are one step more advanced than the current Age...

This initially sounds good, but I can foresee issues with defining the "steps" as you call them. Sure, it's easy to see that working iron is more than one step ahead of a Stone Age, but what are the intermediaries? Just bronzeworking? Why shouldn't copperworking come before even that? And why is alchemy inherently something more advanced? This all gets even more confusing when we try to restrict magic and social constructs by defining them by this arbitrary notion of "steps". Where would democracy fit in since it was a thing in Greece for a while but then it essentially disappeared for another 1000+ years?

Additionally, this system very likely guarantees that the progression and development of Galbar would go almost identically to Earth's. While that's not necessarily a bad thing, I'm partial to leaving open the chance of something more unusual coming to pass due to IC events.

So whereas I originally envisioned these Ages as being characterized predominantly by theme and timescale (Age of Creation, Age of Monsters, Age of Conquest, etc.), you seem to be pushing more toward categorizing them by technological/magical development (essentially 'power level') and I don't see much advantage to doing so. Envisioning the various steps seems like a lot complication for questionable benefit. Now that I think about it, it'd also make it really hard to work out how we could have a Dark Age or something of the sort, and a period of collapse and regression does sound interesting to me.

...A new god/demigod introduced part way through the RP would not have a Sphere to call their own. A demigod would have the creative powers of a god, but not necessarily at the same strength, and they would not gain the benefits of Spheres or the ability to freely travel between Spheres. The mark of ascension to full godhood would be creating or binding to a Sphere. But they can only do this if the Architect of the Spheres, or maybe some of the existing gods, grant them this privilege. The demigod must prove themselves down on Galbar. On the meta level, if the player shows that they can play nice, we let their character ascend (picking either a suitable god or the Architect to sponsor them in-character). We could make the standard probationary period about one Turn- too long and they might get bored; too short and the character's entrance would be jarring (one Turn is just a suggestion and could need tweaking. Maybe two could be better. It depends on how the RP paces). The player may elect to stay a demigod for longer if they wish, but the option for them to ascend would be there. The process of appeasing potential divine sponsors (and gaining favours from demigods) would also add an interesting layer to the pantheon politics.

I like this quite a bit. As far as adopting Portfolios, I'll have to fine-tune the numbers but I'm mostly of the opinion that a limited MP should prevent them from being snatched up too quickly. Though superseding Domains with the new concept of Spheres might make it easy for some to grab up a diverse range of Portfolios and leave us with most of the interesting ones quickly gone, I think that the idea of Clusters might discourage that. Also, I'm considering adding a mechanic that allows gods to fight over Portfolios and potentially steal them. Greek mythology in particular is fraught with examples of gods that usurped the powers of others.

As for hot-spots, I believe these will develop naturally so we have no reason to codify such a concept.

Yeah you're probably right.

Tech

Well, first of all, more important than simple "Iron is better than Bronze" (which isn't even exactly the case) we must think about the mechanical difference between Bronze and Iron.

Bronze is hard to make and needs a lot of trade to secure Tin. Big empires are able to handle it better than small cities and tribes, but can lead to a lot of instability if the trade is broken. This is one of the main factors leading to the Bronze Age Collapse and one of the most legit dark ages in Mankind's history.

Iron is more common and spreads fast, less complex trade routes, but this also means more competition, probably less time to build the pyramids.

And of course, the reason I mentioned separating societal and technological, the bloody Incas with a complex society and an empire larger than Egypt's or the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth... with just a bit of metallurgy going on and no horsies.

Though Cyclone brings the best point, we are just following the walks of Earth without thinking much about it. MK2 had fantastical metals and a lot of weird wildlife being tamed, yet it did kinda follow Earth a lot. It's kinda the opposite of a lot of Mythology, where ancient dudes were said to walk around with the orichalcum swords and the weird magic, but nowadays you don't get any of that.

So yeah, heavily in favour of thematic ages, with dark ages and ages of wonder, over just "we get better weapons and more complex society".

Ports

Greek mythology in particular is fraught with examples of gods that usurped the powers of others.

Though also a lot of weird cases like a bunch of moon goddesses and Hermes, Apollo, Artemis, Poseidon, all being related to travellers. I think I said that in Godspeed, but there should be room for gods to also make deals that changes both their portfolios, like two fire gods diving their realm between wild fire and manmade fire.

Hotspots

I really wasn't suggesting a new rule. And, pardon me BB and Cyclone, but MK1 didn't have civilizations close to each other and instead was mostly species-wide war. MK2 is what it is, with clusters of nations (Yorum, Mesathalassa, Xerxes) all being controlled by one player. Godspeed seemed like it was going to be MK1 the Second. All I talked about was just mentioning or arraging it OOC, so we can have both Nations close to each other for interaction, war, trade, and a world that feels big and wild.

No leveling, progression and abilities

So, I have this PDF of a RPG called Scion. I don't like it, but I did read it. And while most gods in Divinus are at level 1 way more powerful than even the Playable Gods in that game (changing skin color and height is a late game power, lol) it did make me think about abilities.

We already have limited 'ability' buying. You can buy better perception, better hiding and avatars. All else kinda just comes when you are a god, though having a high level meant having more abilities.

I think there is already a lot of room for progression in the form of relics, of holy sites (which I take will be more functional this time around? Like Teknall's Workshop over the Spire of Loralom? Or maybe both? Will worship change Might gain?) but, I got myself thinking... what about abilities? What if we expanded it beyond just perception and avatars?

Its a bit hard since obviously we can't set rules or a list of abilities, but like, what if all gods started in their one form and had to use Might to develop special forms (like being a giant, being living magma, being a magical creature) or to shapeshift into animals at will? What if you could buy Strenght the same way you could buy Perception and Hiding (which would be a one time thing instead of stackables). Hell, what if all gods are naturally speedy and all, but not teleport everywhere speedy, making it so skills, wings, and mythical mounts and vehicles were nescessary as they are in a lot of mythologies?

Dunno, just brainstorming here, but I think there is some root in it.

Honestly, one thing I would like is a sharp decrease in the ability for gods and demigods to get around. I've always wanted to do a ~greek epic god journey~ like the Odyssey but Odysseus is a god, but I've never been able to justify why Lazarus would do that when transportation to any part of Galbar via divine means is so accessible and easy to do.

I feel like the "travel half the globe in seconds" thing should be restricted to super-powerful late-rp gods and emergencies, and the globe should otherwise be a big thing that the gods must journey across.

So, I have put some more thought into it. And I think it all centers around progression and customization.

Example:

Vision
Default: Gods can see pretty well up to the horizon line, like an eagle.
Monument: The hall of visions allow its master to peer into any location
Relic: the silver crystal ball is used for scrying
Ability: This god can remove his eyes and send them to spy on others.
Portfolio: The god of chickens can see what a chicken sees

In general they should be less powerful than relics and structures on the ground of being personal, whole relics and sites can be stolen.

Though this made think about ability x portfolio. Ports obviously should come with ease of access to things related to it. An ability is more of a body trait, magical powers and skills outside of their domain. (Example, a god unrelated to music being able to play mesmerizing beyond masterful songs is an ability).

But then maybe extreme takes on their own portfolio could also be abilities. So god of chicken being able to see from the eyes of all chickens, all the time, at the same time.

@Cyclone@Double Capybara

Re: Ages

Ah, you're right. My idea makes it more of a game of Sid Meyer's Civilisation with rather rigid technological progression rather than something to sculpt interesting histories from. Looser thematic Ages rather than technological Ages may work better (obviously, technologies can be the theme of particular Ages- I strongly suspect that the emergence of metal-working will warrant its own Age).

But we should still think about how players can direct what the next Age will be. If we go 'you can only do things within the confines of the current Age', then no in-world actions shape the course of history and we'll be stuck in the same Age forever; that or GM fiat decides the course of history, which runs against the grain of Divinus. If we go 'you can do whatever and that will decide what the next Age is', then the concept of Ages becomes meaningless. So what is the mechanical effect of Ages?

Re: Portfolios

Permitting Portfolios to be traded (both willingly or under duress) seems like a good idea.

Re: Abilities

In Mk 2, we have used levels to represent the general power level of a god and the extent of their abilities. Portfolios provide dominion over particular themes for their creative powers but are generally only tangentially related to their personal abilities. As such, if we are doing away with levels, it makes sense to replace it with acquiring special abilities using Might.

We would still require a standard set of abilities for all gods. I would lean towards more power rather than less, since Divinus gods are meant to be powerful. We can take some of the most powerful standard abilities from Mk 2 and make them suggestions for purchasable abilities. We also need to consider the power level of these abilities. If we make default gods too weak, then everyone will be spending all their Might on levelling up rather than creating things. If we make the acquirable abilities too weak, then gods in general will be too weak. If we make acquirable abilities too strong, then it could get unbalanced.

Although, perhaps Godspeed's model for Hero Items and Divine Items can be extended to abilities in general, whether they be tied to an object or an innate part of an individual. The vague power outlines given for divine objects seems to work reasonably well, so we can use that system. This also removes the complexity of building a whole new system.

Over levels, this has a benefit of making power progression much more customised. As Capy pointed out, the power Xos wields for being Level 9 and the power Ilunabar wields for being Level 9 are completely different. The numbers suggest that Ilunabar should be able to beat most of the pantheon in a fight, but how the character has developed says otherwise. Progression by ability acquisition instead of abstract levels solves this paradox.

You guys might remember that when we were discussing mechanics for Godspeed, I advocated for extreme nerfs to the gods. Like, restricting their powers almost entirely to things within their portfolios. I seem to remember that being an unpopular idea, and a few voices said that at that point we'd be dealing with a superhero RP instead of a god one.

Point being, I'm fine with a widespread cutback in the power level of gods; I'm just surprised there seems to be so much support for it now.

I previously mentioned offhand that a potential definition of a 'divine being' would be one that possesses the capacity to travel between the Spheres (although depending on the destination and starting point, this might well be an arduous and long task and not a manner of teleportation). This ties in nicely with BBeast's idea to have our new concept of 'demigods' or 'young gods' restricted to Galbar until they can earn access to another Sphere either through their own narrative and/or the help of a sponsoring god. In light of those two ideas, I think we can toss out my earlier mention about it perhaps being interesting to make it possible for gods to attune themselves to Galbar's sphere itself and run around among the mortals like Thor; perhaps if someone explicitly wants to create a character around it then they could have an exception, but by and large it just makes so much more sense for every god to have their own Sphere separate from Galbar and all others.

Anyways, I got a bit sidetracked there. The point was that gods should be able to somehow travel between Spheres. Maybe they use some special bridge like the Bifrost, with the permission of the Architect or some other god that chooses to take on a gatekeeper role. Or maybe they just slowly fly up to the Spheres above and/or jump down great abysses that lead into the ones below; either way it wouldn't quite be teleportation of the magnitude that we have here.

So what do you guys think about implementing largescale general nerfs like Capy and Rainbow have suggested, with Portfolios and/or Clusters potentially offering means for a few gods to do things like the ones in Mk 2 do. I'm thinking that a god of (Wind)(Flight)(Birds) might well have a Cluster like 'Travel' that would allow them to rapidly move around the universe, and maybe true teleportation could be achieved if a god took a Portfolio for it, but the point is that most would not innately be able to travel at such speeds or teleport.

That's just innate powers, though; I do like Capy's idea of being a lot more lenient when it comes to powers granted by artifacts or magical sites that a god creates. Lots of gods had accoutrements that granted them their powers, and it'd be an interesting theme to bring here as well.

Ninja'd by BBeast!

But we should still think about how players can direct what the next Age will be. If we go 'you can only do things within the confines of the current Age', then no in-world actions shape the course of history and we'll be stuck in the same Age forever; that or GM fiat decides the course of history, which runs against the grain of Divinus. If we go 'you can do whatever and that will decide what the next Age is', then the concept of Ages becomes meaningless. So what is the mechanical effect of Ages?

Well mind you that the Ages were also envisioned as having rough timescales, either in terms of turns or in terms of IC years. Whatever happens, the first Age will have to be the Age of Creation, so let's use that as an example. I'll say upfront on the OOC something along of the lines of 'this Age will last for Turns 1-2, that the general theme will be shaping the land and that the creation of life is not the focus and should only come towards the end, and that everyone will get X amount of base MP per turn during this Age'.

Then as we come close to Turn 3, we can discuss OOC what we'd like to do in the next Age, potentially as well as things like a timeskip. Personally I like the idea of an Age of Monsters where the primordial demons and giants and dragons come into existence, and so assuming that this idea is popular with others, we could then decide to have Turn 3 be the Age of Monsters. Creation of heroes and life would be opened, and around now I think we'd get into the part where IC actions can perhaps play as much as role in deciding the next Age as OOC desires.

Permitting Portfolios to be traded (both willingly or under duress) seems like a good idea.

Alright, let's add that to the list of concepts that we've ironed out and that I've become sold on.

Re: Abilities

In Mk 2, we have used levels to represent the general power level of a god and the extent of their abilities. Portfolios provide dominion over particular themes for their creative powers but are generally only tangentially related to their personal abilities. As such, if we are doing away with levels, it makes sense to replace it with acquiring special abilities using Might.

We would still require a standard set of abilities for all gods. I would lean towards more power rather than less, since Divinus gods are meant to be powerful. We can take some of the most powerful standard abilities from Mk 2 and make them suggestions for purchasable abilities. We also need to consider the power level of these abilities. If we make default gods too weak, then everyone will be spending all their Might on levelling up rather than creating things. If we make the acquirable abilities too weak, then gods in general will be too weak. If we make acquirable abilities too strong, then it could get unbalanced.

Although, perhaps Godspeed's model for Hero Items and Divine Items can be extended to abilities in general, whether they be tied to an object or an innate part of an individual. The vague power outlines given for divine objects seems to work reasonably well, so we can use that system. This also removes the complexity of building a whole new system.

Perhaps you're responding to my post from 10 minutes ago even as I write this. I'll give you a chance to react to it

@Cyclone

Re: Ages

Okay, so let's see if I've got this: Ages have rough time-scales, which already establishes what is and isn't reasonable to an extent. The progression of Ages shall be established via rough player consensus, built from OOC discussions as much as IC events. Ages constitute a set of recommendations rather than strict restrictions.

This seems decent. We can work with this.

I have a mechanical effect to suggest: bonus Might which is specifically to be spent on things pertaining to the Age. We still give out enough Might for players to do what they want to do, but they have extra to do what the GMs want them to do too. In-game, it is easier to make things which fit in with the current state of the world, which is mechanically reflected by not consuming the Might you would use for other tasks.

As for the Age of Creation, I'd suggest that this Age is a perfect time for populating the world with (mundane) flora and fauna, under the caveat that the terrain would likely still shift around (so it would indeed be safest to wait until the end of that Age to create life if they rely on particular habitats). We want there to be a full global ecosystem before we start trying to add monsters and civilisations.

Re: Power level

I still prefer leaning towards 'powerful'- rarely does one get the opportunity to play god, so if you're going to do it you may as well go all out. However, I concede that a lot of the mythologies from which Divinus draws inspiration do tend towards more limited gods.

We should figure out what a reasonable base level of power is for gods in this new Divinus.

• A god has the power to travel between Spheres. This travel won't necessarily be instantaneous, but gods will possess means which allows them to travel between Spheres in a manner much more easily than a mortal could. How this manifests would be dependent on details of the Spheres which will probably only emerge once we begin play. On this matter, I would suggest that a god can freely, easily and quickly travel to and from their own Sphere, but that would come under Sphere powers (a god is probably also much stronger within their own Sphere, but that's a separate discussion).
• A god wields enormous creative power, literally shaping reality to their will. Inter-Sphere travel is something specific to New Divinus; the power of creation has been the hallmark of gods for all iterations of Divinus and allows players to freely world-build. I would caution against restricting gods to only be able to make things pertaining to their Portfolios, as this would remove this freedom and make it difficult to diversify to new Portfolios.
• A god is overwhelmingly more powerful than any mortal. Gods are also immortal and generally cannot be harmed by natural phenomena. The only thing which should be strong enough to personally threaten a god is another god or their divinely enhanced proxies (e.g. Heroes), and the latter requires some strongly skewed odds. This does not mean gods are omnipotent, but gods should be able to trump mortals in everything they do.

These three points are at the core of what I think are important characteristics for gods in Divinus (well, the latter two anyway; the first point is important only for this particular cosmology). If you have objections now would be the time to speak, because it is no use trying to iron out the details when we are not on the same page.

I have a mechanical effect to suggest: bonus Might which is specifically to be spent on things pertaining to the Age. We still give out enough Might for players to do what they want to do, but they have extra to do what the GMs want them to do too. In-game, it is easier to make things which fit in with the current state of the world, which is mechanically reflected by not consuming the Might you would use for other tasks.

I'd teased the idea of certain restrictions (e.g. my proposed Ages of Monsters/Myth opening the possibility of heroes, implying those wouldn't have been a thing in the prior Age of Creation) but perhaps it's better to use this softer approach of backing the Age's thematic recommendation by setting aside a certain amount of MP that is only usable for the Age's broad topics. At least for some of the earlier Ages, anyways. If there comes to be something like an Age of Conquest or Age of Steel, perhaps we can expand the range of what this extra MP can go towards so as to be inclusive to the gods that don't directly hand out metalworking and better weapons.

As for the Age of Creation, I'd suggest that this Age is a perfect time for populating the world with (mundane) flora and fauna, under the caveat that the terrain would likely still shift around (so it would indeed be safest to wait until the end of that Age to create life if they rely on particular habitats). We want there to be a full global ecosystem before we start trying to add monsters and civilisations.

Seems reasonable, but that does considerably widen the scope of what's going to be happening on the first few turns. With everyone's immediate focus split between spending MP on doing things to their Spheres, sculpting Galbar, and now making basic life, I'd expect that we'd get a wide but shallow series of actions. Significant fractions of Galbar might remain empty and untouched. *

Perhaps this could be solved by extending the Age of Creation or frontloading even more MP into it, but part of me still thinks that it's a good idea to devote at least the first turn solely to sculpting Galbar and the Spheres.

* On the topic of empty space, I think it was probably a mistake to have Mk. 2's Galbar start as entirely land and then have some inland seas added. Godspeed sorta had Galbar start with some amount of predefined oceans and landmasses, IIRC, but that seemed like a simplification that takes out some of the uniqueness and interaction that could've come. This time I'm thinking that Galbar should start as mostly ocean with perhaps a few small rocky islands, more in line with Divinus Mk. 1. This also brings up the question of whether basic things like a sun, moon, and atmosphere should be initially present. Of course, perhaps it makes sense to see what sort of gods we're dealing with before making such a decision; if we something like a god of stone or earth then it makes sense to let that guy flex his powers by raising a bunch of continents. But if there's no fire god or sun god to make the sun, we should probably start with a sun anyways and just say that the Architect had the foresight to make such a thing.

Re: Re: Power level

I would caution against restricting gods to only be able to make things pertaining to their Portfolios, as this would remove this freedom and make it difficult to diversify to new Portfolios.

Perhaps you're right. Heavy portfolio restriction also contributes to 'monopolies' which become problematic should the monopolizing god be inactive, and which people seem to very much dislike OOC. Maybe we should once again look to a softer approach. Portfolio-related actions could perhaps be made free in nearly all situations, Cluster-related actions treated similarly to how we currently evaluate MP costs, and the baseline for the MP cost of all actions significantly raised. This would provide a soft monopoly, as you would be very much encouraged to ask for help from a god with a relevant Portfolio since the alternative might be to spend 3 or 4MP on doing something that's rather basic by our Mk. 2 standards.

In general your three points have captured the broad strokes of it, as I imagine things. This is a really important topic so I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts on all of this, though.
Ideas for specific limitations would also be nice to toss about. Capy sort of got the ball rolling a while ago with this,

Gods can see pretty well up to the horizon line, like an eagle.

So if we accept that gods can see all the way to the horizon and perceive their surroundings in great detail, exist independent of any worship or worshipers, are immune to the effects of mundane diseases and aging and hunger, are all but immune to the sort of physical and magical harm that could be inflicted by mortals, can travel through the Spheres, and can create nearly anything given sufficient time/energy (MP) and motivation, what sort of limits should we actually impose?

I think a good start would be to remove the innate ability for all gods to manipulate and control the weather in their vicinity for free. That seems like something best relegated to gods with the pertinent portfolios, or gods willing to crack open their wallets bigtime for some one-time magical effects.

It seems we also are all in favor of removing the teleportation and rapid travel capacities of most demigods and gods.

What else?

@Cyclone re: map, I have access to a bunch of fancy graphics tools so really you guys can go nuts with your landmaking, that shouldn't be a problem on my end at all.

Re: portfolio restrictions, my only caveat is that an action should be available to a god if it helps the story, which means super heavy might multipliers and the sorts would need a lot of case-by-case balancing. im perfectly okay with it being more advantageous to talk to the relevant god. just, nobody likes adjusting their stories to be able to hold up to months of posts with no advancement to their planned plotline, or just giving them up because they REQUIRE an inactive god to be around or the might cost is way too high to justify for a single plotline.

at the same time, i feel as though gods should still retain fine control over their most immediate surroundings. i didnt notice much abuse of this, and it permitted for more varied plots. nobody's gonna be hurt if a God conjures up a rainstorm in a few miles' radius.

i dont think the rules should be purely based around least abusable - it should be based around most interesting and fun imo, as i think we can usually self-police the rp just fine.

for frontloading the age of creation, i feel like giving the gods each their own piggybank with "might for use on galbar only" scrawled on the side while allowing their regular might on their spheres (and galbar i guess) would be an easy way to permit people to trick out both to their liking.

While I agree with removing teleportation and instant travel, we probably should have a rapid travel system in place. Perhaps not something inherent to the Gods, but readily found in Galbar for some reason. Maybe a network of interconnected wormholes unique to Galbar that makes fast travel feasible and is only survivable by Gods, Demigods and really powerful/resilient creatures (dragons, heroes, really resilient or strong willed mortals...)? That'd also serve as a starting point for the 'hotspots' we discussed earlier, as Gods would want Temples built around them, Demigods would wish to build empires to conquer all of them, and Heroes would try to use them on their selfless odysseys despite the possibility of death.

P.S: I say wormhole, but they wouldn't be as quick as a wormhole. Imagine it like a shortcut. If travelling from one place to another by foot on Galbar's surface would normally take one month, a wormhole connecting the start to the finish would make the journey in say, three hours.

P.S.S: And, of course, access to such 'wormholes' wouldn't be guaranteed. If someone you are enemies with has control over a specific route you need to take, you'd have to either fight for access, play politics, or just take the scenic route and suck a lemon.

P.S.S.S: On the topic of removing fine control over the immediate surrounding of the Gods, I think we should keep it as it is. We could probably make the radius of their control smaller, maybe by half of what it is, but removing it entirely would be no fun. Of course, if you want to do some majestic weather stuff, you'd have to use a lotta might or lick the weather God's shoes. And, if we're gonna put this on Advanced, i don't think we have to worry too much about power-players and stuff. Not that we need to elsewhere, as we have gotten really good at discerning who would be a good player from the applicants we get.

While I agree with removing teleportation and instant travel, we probably should have a rapid travel system in place. Perhaps not something inherent to the Gods, but readily found in Galbar for some reason. Maybe a network of interconnected wormholes unique to Galbar that makes fast travel feasible and is only survivable by Gods, Demigods and really powerful/resilient creatures (dragons, heroes, really resilient or strong willed mortals...)? That'd also serve as a starting point for the 'hotspots' we discussed earlier, as Gods would want Temples built around them, Demigods would wish to build empires to conquer all of them, and Heroes would try to use them on their selfless odysseys despite the possibility of death.

That can be done... IC. When I made my vision chart up there I was also considering a travel chart, since it is such a good example of how we lose on the uniqueness of gods by giving too many abilities by default.

Travel

Default: Gods can run and jump at inhuman speeds, float on air, walk on water. They can access the realms beyond.
Monument: A series of gates that when crossed by a god teleport them away to the other side of the world or to a sphere realm.
Relic: The Silver Chariot of the Moon is a fast flying chariot carried by magical winged dolphins, during the night, it is so fast and shiny mortals confuse it for a shooting star.
Ability: This god has wings that allow him to travel at even faster speeds and with great stability, no storm, magical or not, will break his balance.
Portfolio: The god of the rivers can quickly cross the continent by following its many rivers.

A god's divinity is in its essence, its ichor, and the consequent ability to make sites and monuments holy, create artefacts, bring about change to the world, mutating animals, connect Galbar with the Spheres and shape their own essence to fortify their bodies.

I legit think we need to stop thinking in terms of "a god should do that" and think instead "a god can do that." Yes gods should be on default powerful and eternal, but there is a balance to that, and if we make them too powerful we are losing on things that could be unique.

For example, Fretz wanted immediately, as we started the game, paths that could cross the world. BBeast wanted easy and immediate access to the spheres. I am of the opinion this is not necessary to be there on the start, even if both are indeed skills we will need.
A God can create the portals, maybe the god of civilization creates these big towers that are all interconnected, but oh wait, the goddess of nature hates the guts of that dude, she doesn't want him to hold such powers, so she creates magical tree paths that connect between the land, then the god of shadows creates alleyways that all end on the same area despite being in multiple cities and gives it to his holy order, the thievery guild.
If all gods can immediately their own spheres, well, that is it. But if, outside of the one path created by the architect, they need to make their own, then there is room for creative solutions. One god can have the ability to turn into lightning and shoot to the skies, one god can have a staff that creates whirlpools in water that lead into his sphere, one god can make a henge that connects his realm and Galbar as a two way path.

I will likely write up some more examples of my overall idea later.

Portfolios

I think making all actions within the portfolio is cheap, and I say that as someone who cheesed up the system with the most portfolios of any god in MK2 :P. In general, I would propose this
Not water-related god creates river: Might
water-related god creates river: Free
Not water-related god creates ocean: lots of might
water-related god creates ocean: might

thought this leads to

Ages

I would like to reiterate my idea of Age-specific might discounts. Creating a chain of mountains on Galbar should be like, one might in the age of creation, even if you are not a mountain god, but creating a single tall mountain in the age of steady civilizations costs more might than the chain of mountains did in the past.

Now... if those civilizations were to collapse and a dark age to start, mountains would be cheaper again, wink.

@Double Capybara, I overlooked that, I agree completely in that case. Doing away with instant transportation and natural fast travel will open up a lot of new possibilities for interaction. I can just imagine how certain Gods might act when forced to travel for weeks on a wagon pulled by slaves.

Re: portfolio restrictions, my only caveat is that an action should be available to a god if it helps the story, which means super heavy might multipliers and the sorts would need a lot of case-by-case balancing. im perfectly okay with it being more advantageous to talk to the relevant god. just, nobody likes adjusting their stories to be able to hold up to months of posts with no advancement to their planned plotline, or just giving them up because they REQUIRE an inactive god to be around or the might cost is way too high to justify for a single plotline.

at the same time, i feel as though gods should still retain fine control over their most immediate surroundings. i didnt notice much abuse of this, and it permitted for more varied plots. nobody's gonna be hurt if a God conjures up a rainstorm in a few miles' radius.

i dont think the rules should be purely based around least abusable - it should be based around most interesting and fun imo, as i think we can usually self-police the rp just fine.

P.S.S.S: On the topic of removing fine control over the immediate surrounding of the Gods, I think we should keep it as it is. We could probably make the radius of their control smaller, maybe by half of what it is, but removing it entirely would be no fun. Of course, if you want to do some majestic weather stuff, you'd have to use a lotta might or lick the weather God's shoes. And, if we're gonna put this on Advanced, i don't think we have to worry too much about power-players and stuff. Not that we need to elsewhere, as we have gotten really good at discerning who would be a good player from the applicants we get.

You guys are getting the wrong idea. The point of nerfing the gods isn't at all to prevent metagaming or powerplaying or abuse. Removing these powers from the baseline things that every god can do from the start has numerous benefits:

1. It allows for progression of the sort that Capy has been going on about. Lacking the ability to teleport or travel quickly opens up the possibility to constructing a Bifrost, or a network of tunnels that lead everywhere (cool idea for someone's Sphere, btw). Similarly you could invest MP into creating an accoutrement of some sort that enhances your god's power, and so on. Whih leads into...

2. It encourages more interaction, both as gods seek out one another for help and as gods potentially try to fight over these Bifrost-esque magical sites or these fantastic artifacts that grant powers. Or even over Portfolios themselves!

3. It makes the different gods feel more unique. If everybody can make it rain over their head, that really knocks the wind out of the rain god always bringing rain where he goes or the god of darkness scaring away the very light as he creeps around. If you want to make it rain around you then you still could, provided you either pay a few MP right then and there or make some sort of artifact to enable it.

@Double Capybara

I like and agree with much of what you said there, except for what I'm about to outline below.

I would like to reiterate my idea of Age-specific might discounts. Creating a chain of mountains on Galbar should be like, one might in the age of creation, even if you are not a mountain god, but creating a single tall mountain in the age of steady civilizations costs more might than the chain of mountains did in the past.

Now... if those civilizations were to collapse and a dark age to start, mountains would be cheaper again, wink.

The issue with this approach is that it requires readjustment of the "price stickers" on every single item in the MP store, every single Age. I think that the same effect can be achieved by simply giving everyone a substantial piggy bank of Free Points* for the Age that can only be spent on the Age-specific things. If we want more mountains during the Age of Creation, instead of making mountains cheaper we can just hand out more Free Points.

*The idea of this MP that's set aside every Age for Age-related things made my mind stray back to our current system that gives out 1 FP every turn. Since the FP has been decided to basically just be 0.25MP, it's not at all significant. Its efects are more or less overshadowed by how Portfolios can grant free actions. I had decided that I was going to just remove Free Points from the new Divinus, but then I realized that it makes sense to call the special piggybank of Age-specific MP...Free Points.

As I imagine it, the new Free Points should have mechanics along these lines:

1. A FP is equal in power to a MP, however it can only be spent on things related to the current Age.

2. Everybody will receive the same amount of FP every Turn in addition to their usual MP income, however this amount is variable and depends on the Age that we're in.

3. Your FP certainly does not carry over between Ages, and perhaps not even between Turns within the same Age. The point of passing out a bunch of FP each Age is first to define the scope of changes that we want to see, so you might well get 10FP on Turn 1 to make all sorts of mountains and oceans, but I don't want someone to save half their FP every turn and then suddenly unleash it all on making a super-city come Turn 5 or 6. And the second point of FP is to encourage actions related to the current theme, which again demands that the FP be a temporary (and somewhat optional) offer.

4. Spending FP does contribute to you building up enough actions related to a certain idea to adopt said idea as a Portfolio, however they contribute at half(?) the amoun that spending true MP does. In effect this ensures that throwing around your actual MP (a more significant display of dedication, I'd say) will still quickly let you adopt a Portfolio, but that FP can get the ball rolling. It seems thematic for gods to start adopting Portfolios relating to metalworking, crafting, etc. during the Age of Bronze, when metalworking starts to become a big thing and everyone has lots of FP to spend on things related to bronze and metalworking.

Okay, I tried codifying my thoughts on innate powers and also on the concept of abilities. This is what I came up with.

exist independent of any worship or worshipers

Ah, yes, I forgot that one. Add that to my list of things which are vital to Divinus gods.

Perhaps this could be solved by extending the Age of Creation or frontloading even more MP into it, but part of me still thinks that it's a good idea to devote at least the first turn solely to sculpting Galbar and the Spheres.

Dividing the Age of Creation into different emphases on a per-Turn basis as you suggest seems like a good solution.

Speaking of which, I'll bring up a comment. One thing I really liked in Mk 2 was Turn 1 where we all squabbled over creating the Universe together. The events of that Turn made the Universe ours, and that was unique and cool. The New Divinus I would suggest that a similar outcome can be derived from the Spheres. Each Sphere should have an effect in some manner on the physics of Galbar. The Sun might actually be a portal to the Sphere of Fire or Light. Spellcasters draw their power from the Sphere of Magic or other Spheres as appropriate. Wildlife might be drawn from the Sphere of Wilderness. Clouds and rain come from the Sphere of Water. When mortals sleep their souls connect to the Sphere of Dreams. The Sphere of Death is where souls go when they die, either to wallow there for eternity or until reincarnation or until another god brings them to their own Sphere to enjoy an afterlife there. And so on. The first Turn is a good chance for players to define the effect their Sphere has on Galbar and thus make the world uniquely theirs.

Unlike Mk 2, this would have the additional effect of reality changing when we get new gods ascending and creating their own Spheres. Physics won't be fixed but mutable. This I feel would add to the mythic flavour we are going for.

I've had another thought regarding inter-Sphere travel. It appears that the consensus is that we will be building methods to connect between the Spheres, like Bifrost bridges and shadowy alleyways and tree portals. Gods will not have the power of teleportation unless they buy it. This means that unlike Mk 2 gods can't just snap their fingers and travel to other Spheres; they must traverse these portals. However, save for barriers of various sorts, nothing really stops a mortal, Hero or Demigod from also using these portals. Perhaps a god doesn't need the Sphere owner's permission to enter a Sphere? But that still feels like a pretty weak definition of godhood and feels like it would restrict interesting narratives (how many legends involve heroes going to a god's domain uninvited to challenge them or steal something or something?).

As such, I think a better condition for godhood in this cosmology is having control over a Sphere. Owning a Sphere lets you do some very god-like things, such as having a personal plane of existence and being able to exert an enduring influence over reality on Galbar. The mark of a demigod's ascension is getting a Sphere of their own.

As I imagine it, the new Free Points should have mechanics along these lines:

Those points seem good.

Okay, I tried codifying my thoughts on innate powers and also on the concept of abilities. This is what I came up with.

That looks good enough to work with.

how many legends involve heroes going to a god's domain uninvited to challenge them or steal something or something?

I am a bit confused here, are you saying these don't exist? Or that they do? (because they really do! We haven't even decided if we are giving those pesky humans the gift of fire yet, so who knows if they will need to steal it.)

I think travel won't be as much of a problem as everyone seems to think, it's just that now everyone will devise their own methods and there will be a stronger sense of permanence.

In my view, gates to their spheres should work according to the god, their need, and the function of the gate. Say the sun is a gate as you described, it would be a pretty open gate... though mortals likely can't reach it :P. Maybe to traverse the shadowy alleyway path you need a special amulet, else you just bonk your head against a wall, maybe the magical teleport towers have fierce guardians and the portal is only open during summer solstice, maybe the path to the ocean realm will only open itself to those pure of heart while all others will fall into the depths of the sea and drown.

And that is not even accounting the possibility of abilities or relics that can make the god move into his sphere. Though in all honesty, I don't know how the spheres are situated physically around Galbar. From what Zeph told, I had this impression that by travelling up, you eventually reach a place between worlds.

<Snipped quote>

I am a bit confused here, are you saying these don't exist? Or that they do? (because they really do! We haven't even decided if we are giving those pesky humans the gift of fire yet, so who knows if they will need to steal it.)

I was saying via rhetorical question that such legends do exist and are numerous.

I think travel won't be as much of a problem as everyone seems to think, it's just that now everyone will devise their own methods and there will be a stronger sense of permanence.

...

I agree with you completely here- methods of inter-Sphere travel should be fully customisable. My point was that inter-Sphere travel will be so not-a-problem that it is a poor measure of godhood (unlike Mk 2, where only fully fledged gods could perform at-will inter-planar travel). While only a fully fledged god would have the power to create links between the Spheres, I still think that owning a Sphere is a much better milestone for ascension (we can also consider that only the god who owns a Sphere can create links to it, which would make owning a Sphere a prerequisite to making inter-Sphere links).

Though in all honesty, I don't know how the spheres are situated physically around Galbar. From what Zeph told, I had this impression that by travelling up, you eventually reach a place between worlds.

While the idea of concentric Spheres might work by analogy and is what the mortal philosophers will cook up and the dumbed-down version of cosmology which the gods can tell the mortals, we are not confined to three-dimension or Euclidean geometry. The Sphere named the Cosmos might be accessible by travelling upwards for a few hundred kilometers, and the Underworld could be accessible by tunnelling downwards deep enough, but the Spheres need not occupy the same space-time as Galbar or each other. This Shadowy Alleyway Sphere is accessible from cities across Galbar and requires no apparent vertical travel to get to, although maybe because the original access points were caves it might be a 'lower' Sphere. The Sphere of Fire could have portals both in the sun above and in volcanoes below, which blurs the distinction between 'upper' and 'lower' Spheres.

Additionally, if we want all the Spheres to be connected to Galbar, it doesn't make sense to have a strictly concentric model, because then only two Spheres will be in direct contact with Galbar and the other Spheres have to push through the Spheres in between.

As such, I think that the Spheres shouldn't be physically situated around Galbar at all, at least not in any literal sense of 'physically situated'. Any categorisations of the Spheres (e.g. Upper vs Lower vs Middle, Material vs Spiritual, Order vs Chaos, Good vs Evil, etc.) and associations with Galbaric geometry and geography should be left as emergent phenomena and not baked into the cosmology in any way.

Ah, I see, so it was about godly ascension. That was why I was a bit confused, I kinda missed that in your post.

I also liked your explanation of the spheres. It kinda feels like the planes of the previous MKs but with a clear mythological role.