Meanwhile, in Opposite World Florida

[mdk]

The Nexerus said But back on topic—I think Ukrainians should be the sole people deciding the fate of Ukraine.

Wait I thought this was about Florida.

[natsumehack]

No one is PUTTING word in your mouth

[The Nexerus]

mdk said
Wait I thought this was about Florida.

Idlehands changed the subject to try and discredit me based off of my opinion on an unrelated topic.

[natsumehack]

The Nexerus said
Idlehands changed the subject to try and discredit me based off of my opinion on an unrelated topic.

So she did a fallcy?

[idlehands]

Nex said But back on topic—I think Ukrainians should be the sole people deciding the fate of Ukraine.

Halo was asking you a question, not putting words in your mouth. Answer him.

How do you define a "Ukrainian"? Someone born there? Someone who moves there legally and gets residency? I think you agree with the movement's protest against the pro-Russian government and their desire to become more Western and democratic, which is fine, but saying to deport a certain ethnic/immigrant group is bullshit.

Nex said Idlehands changed the subject to try and discredit me based off of my opinion on an unrelated topic.

I don't have to try to discredit you.

[Halo]

The Nexerus said
"And no one's putting words in your mouth."Yes she is.But back on topic—I think Ukrainians should be the sole people deciding the fate of Ukraine.

I'm male. Also, I don't believe I put any words in your mouth - I just extrapolated your point to a wider context to highlight its ridiculousness. My entire point was to emphasise what you just said - that Ukrainians should be the only ones deciding Ukraine's fate - and argue against it by saying that legal immigrants to a country, who are affected by its laws and policies, should have a say in the legislation and laws they must abide.

[Turtlicious]

The Nexerus said
Everyone else has had more sex than me

mdk said
ohhh ohhh

The Nexerus said
Everyone else has had more sex than me
Does anyone else get that feeling?

mdk said
Teenagers, naked, couples in threes;
Grandparents swing from the ceiling;

[The Nexerus]

idlehands said
Halo was asking you a question, not putting words in your mouth. Answer him. How do you define a "Ukrainian"? Someone born there? Someone who moves there legally and gets residency? I think you agree with the movement's protest against the pro-Russian government and their desire to become more Western and democratic, which is fine, but saying to deport a certain ethnic group is bullshit.

Once again, I do not think a certain ethnic group should be deported.

When I say 'Ukrainian' or 'Russian', I mean someone who identifies as either Ukrainian or Russian. This isn't North America, there are no hyphenated nationalities in Eastern Europe. If you're in Ukraine, identify solely as Russian and speak only Russian, you should not be voting in Ukrainian politics, particularly when you're voting for integration of the country you're a foreigner in with your home country.

[Turtlicious]

The Nexerus said

[The Nexerus]

Halo said Legal immigrants to a country, who are affected by its laws and policies, should have a say in the legislation and laws they must abide.

That should only extend to those who are willing to assimilate and identify as members of the country they are living in. Immigrants should not expect the land they're moving into to accommodate to them, it should be the other way around. If you choose to move to a new country, you have made a concious, voluntary decision to either resist the way of life in that country or adjust to it.

Another important note: the border drawn between the Ukrainian SSR and Russian SSR was completely arbitrary. The problem could also be solved by shifting the borders so that the lands populated by ethnic Russians and that speak solely Russian and identify exclusively as Russian be included as part of Russia. However, I think changing borders would not only be rejected angrily by the people organizing and participating in Euromaidan, but also be even more unfair than giving Russians incentive to leave.

[Halo]

The Nexerus said
That should only extend to those who are willing to assimilate and identify as members of the country they are living in. Immigrants should not expect the land they're moving into to accommodate to them, it should be the other way around. If you choose to move to a new country, you have made a concious, voluntary decision to either resist the way of life in that country or adjust to it.Another important note: the border drawn between the Ukrainian SSR and Russian SSR was completely arbitrary. The problem could also be solved by shifting the borders so that the lands populated by ethnic Russians and that speak solely Russian and identify exclusively as Russian be included as part of Russia. However, I think changing borders would not only be rejected angrily by the people organizing and participating in Euromaidan, but also be even more unfair than giving Russians incentive to leave.

It is not the fault of those caught on the "wrong" side of this arbitrary border, and they should not have to move to another country and uproot their lives because of that.

[idlehands]

Nex said Once again, I do not think a certain ethnic group should be deported.

When I say 'Ukrainian' or 'Russian', I mean someone who identifies as either Ukrainian or Russian. This isn't North America, there are no hyphenated nationalities in Eastern Europe. If you're in Ukraine, identify solely as Russian and speak only Russian, you should not be voting in Ukrainian politics, particularly when you're voting for integration of the country you're a foreigner in with your home country.

Ok let's just get something straight. If you identify yourself with a certain culture based on language, religion, certain beliefs, that would be ethnicity. Whether you are in the US or in the Ukraine, it doesn't matter.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic

You're saying to deport an ethnic group, not just recent immigrants.

[Halo]

The Nexerus said
That should only extend to those who are willing to assimilate and identify as members of the country they are living in. Immigrants should not expect the land they're moving into to accommodate to them, it should be the other way around. If you choose to move to a new country, you have made a concious, voluntary decision to either resist the way of life in that country or adjust to it.Another important note: the border drawn between the Ukrainian SSR and Russian SSR was completely arbitrary. The problem could also be solved by shifting the borders so that the lands populated by ethnic Russians and that speak solely Russian and identify exclusively as Russian be included as part of Russia. However, I think changing borders would not only be rejected angrily by the people organizing and participating in Euromaidan, but also be even more unfair than giving Russians incentive to leave.

Additionally, perhaps culturally they should make some effort to assimilate, but their political ideology should not have to change. That defeats the point of democracy.

[The Nexerus]

^ We're not talking about political ideology, really. Politics in Ukraine and the Baltics is divided primarily along the Russian spectrum: either you support your country integrating back into Russia, or you don't. Russians in those countries are always going to support integration into Russia, because they don't want to stop being Russian.

Halo said
It is not the fault of those caught on the "wrong" side of this arbitrary border, and they should not have to move to another country and uproot their lives because of that.

Ukraine is going to have to deal with constant inter-ethnic tensions that can never be fully resolved and will consistently and limitlessly drag the country down, then.

idlehands said
Ok let's just get something straight. If you identify yourself with a certain culture based on language, religion, certain beliefs, that would be ethnicity. Whether you are in the US or in the Ukraine, it doesn't matter. You're saying to deport an ethnic group, not just recent immigrants.

There aren't many Russian immigrants to Ukraine, really. Ukraine is poor. Russia is poor too, but Ukraine is worse. That's part of the reason behind Ukrainians voting for integration with Russia; the country was better off, in some ways, during the days of the Soviet Union. Only older Ukrainians can remember those days.

I think that Russians in Ukraine should either embrace Ukrainian culture and identify as Ukrainian, or leave for Russia.

[Awson]

[Turtlicious]

Awson said

Agreed.

[Shy]

Awson said

I feel this just became ridiculous

[Turtlicious]

Some people just can't let go of an argument.

[Halo]

Turtlicious said
Some people just can't let go of an argument.

but it's fun

[idlehands]

Nex said There aren't many Russian immigrants to Ukraine, really. Ukraine is poor. Russia is poor too, but Ukraine is worse. That's part of the reason behind Ukrainians voting for integration with Russia; the country was better off, in some ways, during the days of the Soviet Union. Only older Ukrainians can remember those days.

I think that Russians in Ukraine should either embrace Ukrainian culture and identify as Ukrainian, or leave for Russia.

Then you ARE talking about ethnic Russians who are born on Ukrainian soil. I don't know if it is the same there, if someone is born there they are a citizen automatically, but obviously these people have voting rights in the Ukraine. They are citizens of that country and you would just round them up and ship them off to Russia despite the fact that the Ukraine is their home.That's a completely rediculous and far fetched idea, not to mention inhumane.

As you say, there is an older population of ethnic Ukrainians as well as Russians voting for a Russian friendly government. They do this because they remember the slightly better days under the Soviet regime. While the younger generation has a more Western outlook thanks to the ability to access information that their parents and grandparents never had. The youth has every right to protest, they're citizens, hell I support their cause. But saying to get rid of whole population of people because they're not playing right is just silly and dangerous.