<Insert Name; Will Edit Once Not Busy> {Hang-out Thread}

[Shoryu Magami]

@NekoMizu
Hmm, right. Well, I guess so long as you're doing it because you want to.

[tsukune]

So, just a few random updates about me, since I've been quiet for these few days:

1. Rushing deadline for college assignments, and can I just say that I bloody hate the new Game Maker Studio interface? So terrible that I ended up writing half the codes manually to make my life easier, because I'm fed up with repeating the commands over and over again over so many sprite objects.

2. And I have hopelessly "autistic" teammates again. Now I'm past the point to play nice and simply give them bad remarks for members' evaluation report since they are more interested in playing their own games than actually making the damn game for the project.

3. Acquired a free Visual Novel Maker (just Google search for "Ren'Py"). Going to work on a very simple horror-mystery story for experimenting purposes. The coding is pretty easy to understand even if you're a beginner in programming.

4. Wanted to get out of my RL shit to get back to some RP work, then I realized how messy my RP notes were - they even got mixed with my school papers, lol.

5. Been playing this FPS game called "Dirty Bomb" with my bud. Hard as hell compared to the likes of Overwatch, Paladins, CoD and various others I played on fleeting chances, but so far it's cool with me. I can't believe I didn't feel one bit frustrated since I keep dying like every 5 seconds (well, because my friend, who is worse than I am, is amusing enough for me to focus my sadism on him, heh).

---

The not-too important stuff:

- Going to local anime con tomorrow.
- Pokemon XY&Z anime is surprisingly not too bad... skipping those filler episodes, that is.

[NekoMizu]

@tsukune
I heard of Renpy but have never tried it. Unless I have tried it and forgot. Which is likely the case.

On another note, my sleep schedule is officially fucked. It's 3:09 and I'm still up, reading a manga.

[Shoryu Magami]

@tsukune
1. Unfamiliar with the program, but it sounds annoying and repetitive.

2. Idiotic 'teammates' are idiotic.

3. No idea if that program would be helpful for what I've got in mind.

4. Here's hoping you get those notes sorted then. We all know how much I fucking relate to problems when they involve notes needing to be organized and piling up badly. Also, I'm in another role-play now -- a Final Fantasy role-play, and I'm bringing some cool ideas over to it that I've wanted to use with this setting for many years.

5. Lol, it's always easier to not get frustrated in a game when someone else is doing a lot worse.

In general, you just take care. Have fun at the convention.

@NekoMizu
That's shit, considering you were going well recently.

[BrokenPromise]

3. Acquired a free Visual Novel Maker (just Google search for "Ren'Py"). Going to work on a very simple horror-mystery story for experimenting purposes. The coding is pretty easy to understand even if you're a beginner in programming.

@tsukune

Old program, but if you want to make a 2D visual novel, this is the thing to use.

You won't be able to do anything "cool" without learning basic coding, ruby, or copying and editing community codes.

[Shoryu Magami]

@tsukune@BrokenPromise
The decision to go visual novel series - instead of light novel series - with my project is still a big maybe, but a lot of people seem to be recommending it and think it'd be ideal for everything I have in mind, since it allows me to get the best of both worlds.

[tsukune]

<Snipped quote by tsukune>

Old program, but if you want to make a 2D visual novel, this is the thing to use.

You won't be able to do anything "cool" without learning basic coding, ruby, or copying and editing community codes.

@BrokenPromise

They've done some major cool upgrades since then, and will soon release ver. 7 (now it's ver. 6.11-something), according to a classmate of mine who had used the program before to make his own VN. Also, when it comes to coding it's largely based on Python, which I'm very familiar with, so no worries about that. XD And yes, I'm going for 2D VN, not 3D. I mean, what for? Might as well make a full action RPG instead of VN, yeah. Sure, looks cool to have the character's mouth move as the dialogues are being read out, and blink/bob their head every few seconds or so, but I find that creepy. /shrugs

@Shoryu Magami
I do have quite a number of story ideas that I had planned for novel (not light novel, because I noticed my writing style has become a little too, uh, sophisticated to be suitable for light novel), but some of them I feel would work better as VN because that would allow me to explore other routes/endings, which help to further expand the lore of my story, and deeper character development when faced with the various choices.

As for the Final Fantasy RP, cheers to you for that! I really like FF for the reason that it's more of a franchise title but each has its own story, world and characters. Of course, all of them would share a few generic similarities, such as the thing about the powers of crystal, and the recurring creatures (chocobo, moogle, the summons, and "everyone's favorite", Gilgamesh, haha). I wish I can find a way to reboot my FF RP ideas without my busy schedule killing them off again because I really want to play around the idea of deconstructing and reconstructing the canon characters for character studies, but oh well. I probably end up writing them as my own fanfic projects, or get only a few people I'm close with/able to work well together to collab instead of RPing with interested (but random) players.

Also, just letting you know that I haven't forgotten the things I'm supposed to be working on with you, and also the coding guide. I just can't seem to get much free time out of my college schedule to do all the personal stuff I want to do. :/ (Also, because I'm so stressed I end up constantly procrastinating using FPS to snipe some heads off, lol.)

[Shoryu Magami]

@tsukune
Just take your time and deal with what you need to deal with. I'm going to get very busy myself in the coming months. I haven't slept in a day again, but I'm about to take a nap after I respond to a few things.

I do have quite a number of story ideas that I had planned for novel (not light novel, because I noticed my writing style has become a little too, uh, sophisticated to be suitable for light novel), but some of them I feel would work better as VN because that would allow me to explore other routes/endings, which help to further expand the lore of my story, and deeper character development when faced with the various choices.

tsukune

By no stretch of the imagination would my story be considered unsophisticated. The reason for going to light novel instead of just novel is the problem of length and complexity -- there is no way a single novel - no matter how large - would be able to contain even one of the arcs of my project, so the idea is that I plan to separate the story into what would best be described as 'episodes', and then have a handful of them in each book. I have no intention of going with multiple routes/endings, so my reasons for considering a visual novel format is entirely for the purpose of adding better visuals and even music -- it would still contain the full and heavy-handed narrative that the novels would have.

As for the Final Fantasy RP, cheers to you for that! I really like FF for the reason that it's more of a franchise title but each has its own story, world and characters. Of course, all of them would share a few generic similarities, such as the thing about the powers of crystal, and the recurring creatures (chocobo, moogle, the summons, and "everyone's favorite", Gilgamesh, haha). I wish I can find a way to reboot my FF RP ideas without my busy schedule killing them off again because I really want to play around the idea of deconstructing and reconstructing the canon characters for character studies, but oh well. I probably end up writing them as my own fanfic projects, or get only a few people I'm close with/able to work well together to collab instead of RPing with interested (but random) players.

tsukune

In this role-play, I'll actually be using some (not all) of the concepts I've had over the years for Final Fantasy role-play ideas. I suppose keep an eye on the role-play when the time comes. It's using the Dissidia setting, but I expect the ideas I have in mind will make it a lot more complex than that story was.

I've also had my own idea for a unique Final Fantasy role-play that wouldn't use canon characters -- think of it sort of like my own 'numbered' Final Fantasy, but I've never really gotten around to posting it up anywhere.

[tsukune]

<Snipped quote by tsukune>

By no stretch of the imagination would my story be considered unsophisticated. The reason for going to light novel instead of just novel is the problem of length and complexity -- there is no way a single novel - no matter how large - would be able to contain even one of the arcs of my project, so the idea is that I plan to separate the story into what would best be described as 'episodes', and then have a handful of them in each book. I have no intention of going with multiple routes/endings, so my reasons for considering a visual novel format is entirely for the purpose of adding better visuals and even music -- it would still contain the full and heavy-handed narrative that the novels would have.

@Shoryu Magami

My understanding of a light novel is a type of narrative fiction that uses simplistic, everyday language as opposed to a standard novel, which uses more artistic writing. Both novels and light novels can exist as one-off volume, or into series (i.e. spanning over many volumes under the same main title). So if your idea is complex, and you are able to write with class, then I feel that it's better to go with standard novel style rather than "lowering" your standard to go for light novel style.

<Snipped quote by tsukune>

In this role-play, I'll actually be using some (not all) of the concepts I've had over the years for Final Fantasy role-play ideas. I suppose keep an eye on the role-play when the time comes. It's using the Dissidia setting, but I expect the ideas I have in mind will make it a lot more complex than that story was.

@Shoryu Magami

I have been playing Mobius FF on my mobile (and I'm waiting for them to release the PC version on Steam), which shares a number of similarities with Dissidia. Both are some of the sources of inspiration for this FF RP idea I have in mind (link). The other one below is a crossover with Fate/stay night - but instead of summoning historical Heroic Spirits, this time you summon those from FF, lol.

I can keep a look out for your FF RP, but I cannot promise you now about joining, because it really depends on my schedule at the time when you officially roll out the game.

[BrokenPromise]

They've done some major cool upgrades since then, and will soon release ver. 7 (now it's ver. 6.11-something), according to a classmate of mine who had used the program before to make his own VN. Also, when it comes to coding it's largely based on Python, which I'm very familiar with, so no worries about that. XD And yes, I'm going for 2D VN, not 3D. I mean, what for? Might as well make a full action RPG instead of VN, yeah. Sure, looks cool to have the character's mouth move as the dialogues are being read out, and blink/bob their head every few seconds or so, but I find that creepy. /shrugs

@tsukune

Right, python. I was thinking of RPG maker. THAT is ruby. but both are Japanese codes that aren't used very frequently where I live.

I specified 2d more for any minigames or such you might have in mind. Only real advantage to 3d is if you want the characters to be animated and go into unique poses and such in real time. Production value goes up, but you need a lot more skills to pull it off. Either way, it sounds like it will work for you.

[shylarah]

@tsukune I've only ever heard Japan and other countries in the east use the term "light novel", usually alongside manga and anime, and I've never actually read any. I've read books in English that use simplistic narrative, and while I can't offhand remember them being called novels, I think they were just "books" or "chapter books" (or books without pictures, if you were young enough ^.^; ). I know that there are books called novels out there that are not particularly sophisticated. I think Nancy Drew (the old ones) might qualify, and a bunch of YA fiction. Harry Potter, those are novels, but the language isn't all that complex.

I thought the difference for a light novel is that the main plot -- the big one -- is stretched over multiple books. Like a serial, where one book is published in pieces. I could be wrong, of course, but level of artistry in writing has never changed what it's called (save with poetry at times), and I know there's Japanese light novel series with a great deal of flair, from what I've heard. So take Harry Potter. Each book has a complete plot, and there are background plot arcs in addition that span multiple books. Those are novels, and the set is a series. With a light novel, I'd expect each of those books to be split into multiple smaller pieces, each holding a portion of the "whole" book, and thus the plot of each full story. I dunno, now that I think on it that doesn't seem quite right either.

[NekoMizu]

@shylarah
Not all light novels have multiple volumes. Light novels are smaller than normal novels and are mostly set for a younger audience, around T and OT and have a few pictures, so it's not completely lacking in that aspect. But since they're generally made for younger people, the vocabulary is not as large as a normal novel. At least this is from my experience with them, which isn't vast. I'm more of a manga person myself.

[tsukune]

@shylarah@NekoMizu
NekoMizu is right - as I have said, the style and language used in light novels are generally more simplistic compared to standard novels. Using Harry Potter and Nancy Drew as examples provided by Shylarah, you would notice that both titles do have a flair of artistry in the way they structured their sentences, and they can be descriptive. Light novels tend to be more straightforward in the choice of words used (i.e. less use of big words and more of everyday language), dialogue heavy, and descriptions are kept generic/minimal.

I have read a number of light novel books myself - Haruhi Suzumiya series, Shakugan no Shana, Kaze no Stigma, and many more - I do not agree that light novel is a type of narrative fiction where the big plot is stretched over multiple volumes, because this also applies to standard serial novels. I assume that this is a misconception that comes from associating with anime adaptation of the light novels, because anime is usually episodic. Take Haruhi Suzumiya - some of the volumes are actually a collection of short stories (e.g. Sigh, Boredom), which gives an "episodic" feel; some actually do have a plot within one volume itself (e.g. Melancholy, Disappearance). Also, while each Harry Potter book has a complete plot on its own, all of the seven books still come together with one big plot: of how Harry had finally won over Voldemort, the murderer of his parents, and end the Wizarding War for good. Or how about Hunger Games, where it has a big plot spanning over three books with smaller plots in each, instead of just a single volume? The point is, most serial books have both their own plot within that one volume, and also constitute to the bigger plot over the entire series. Using how the plot is being laid out across the volumes isn't an accurate way to determine if the book is considered light or standard novel.

[shylarah]

@NekoMizu@tsukune I read Nancy Drew in first grade. YA novels have considerable flair. Since books for kids can include very flowery language, and since adults do read light novels, I'm not seeing a good division here.

I mean that the focus plot is split up. There will be no introduction/rising action/climax/denouement to a single book, which most books in a series do have (though there are exceptions where things end on cliffhangers). But usually those are new complications and twists leading into a new one-book plot in the next installment. Thus, the background plot might span several volumes in a series, but there's a smaller plot in each book, and that is usually the focus. I meant books where there is no real plot arc in each volume, but where, instead, each book is more like one chapter of a story. Anime is not always episodic, in fact a lot of the ones I watch are not. The most obvious example I can think of is DBZ, though I don't watch it. And manga versions of things like InuYasha, Detective Conan, and Rurouni Kenshin have short "chapters" based on the fact that they are released in weekly installments. The actual plot arc spans several of these chapters, and even a collected print volume won't start and finish a single plot, but are instead rather arbitrary in many cases. The idea isn't that there can't be longer plots -- there's almost always /something/ to tie things in the same series together, even if it's just the characters (Nancy Drew, and various different mystery series that I've read, usually have few connections from one case to the next, just as a detective's case last month may be entirely different from the one they're working on now).

So you're saying that light novels do have a complete plot in each volume, in most cases? Welp, definitely wrong on that point, then. No idea what T and OT are, and I remember older books often have the occasional illustration -- the Nancy Drews, for example, had a handful of pictures through the book. Maybe five.

It sounds to me that light novels are more a stylistic designation. Thus, you could have a novel written in light-novel style. I mean, a novel is simply "a fictitious prose narrative of book length, typically representing character and action with some degree of realism" -- though you could totally get rid of the second half of that, since many novels do (I'm looking at you, Hitchhiker's Guide! <3). There's no specific style, but often it seems that it needs to be several chapters long, or a hundred to three hundred pages to qualify. Less than that adn I don't often hear a book called a novel. So a book of two hundred pages, dialogue heavy and very light on descriptions, and with no complicated words (though I'd argue the last one, because really, you can be poetic without flowery words, and there's no good lines to separate them) -- this would be a novel and a light novel at the same time, by what you've said.

[tsukune]

@shylarah
I tend not to categorize books based on the age group, because it's more of personal preference what are the exact books one would read. Like you said, some adults would still read books that were meant for younger audiences rather than those for their age group because of personal preference/reasons, and there's nothing wrong with that. What I'm focusing on is the writing style, structure, and language difference in both light and standard novels.

I mean that the focus plot is split up. There will be no introduction/rising action/climax/denouement to a single book, which most books in a series do have (though there are exceptions where things end on cliffhangers). But usually those are new complications and twists leading into a new one-book plot in the next installment. Thus, the background plot might span several volumes in a series, but there's a smaller plot in each book, and that is usually the focus. I meant books where there is no real plot arc in each volume, but where, instead, each book is more like one chapter of a story.

So you're saying that light novels do have a complete plot in each volume, in most cases? Welp, definitely wrong on that point, then.

@shylarah

Like you've said yourself, most books in general, regardless whether it's a light or standard novel series, do have a focal plot in each volume, and all of these small plots will lead to the bigger plot that covers the whole series. (Of course there are a few exceptions - again, regardless of the novel type - but that's not the main point, so I'm not going to go into details about this.) So yes, even in light novels, each volume has a plot arc of its own, and not a mere chapter of the bigger plot.

It sounds to me that light novels are more a stylistic designation. Thus, you could have a novel written in light-novel style.

So a book of two hundred pages, dialogue heavy and very light on descriptions, and with no complicated words (though I'd argue the last one, because really, you can be poetic without flowery words, and there's no good lines to separate them) -- this would be a novel and a light novel at the same time, by what you've said.

@shylarah

Yes, you can argue that the "difference" between light and standard novels are based on the style (which is what I've been saying, and I have reiterated once more in the previous paragraphs of this post) and not the quantity of pages and chapters, the word limit, and length of the books. Also, I think you're misunderstanding my point when it comes to style difference: in a light novel, it can be two-hundred pages long, dialogue heavy with minimal descriptions, little to no use for flowery words - but straightforward narration like your everyday conversation, not poetic. People don't talk to each other in a poetic way normally, right? As I've said, if there's an artistic/poetic flair in how they structure their sentences, that would make it more like a standard than light novel.

Another misconception that all light novels contain some form of illustrations in between pages. This is a rising trend nowadays, but back when light novels first appeared in Japan, there weren't any illustrations or even direct association with the animanga culture, but as a new, experimental form of literary style in fictions. Some books that are not light novels do have illustrations in between pages, such as the old Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys volumes, reprints of classical literature by some publishers, even in contemporary literature if the writer/publisher wanted so (e.g. Percy Jackson: The Demigod Files).

Anime is not always episodic, in fact a lot of the ones I watch are not. The most obvious example I can think of is DBZ, though I don't watch it. And manga versions of things like InuYasha, Detective Conan, and Rurouni Kenshin have short "chapters" based on the fact that they are released in weekly installments. The actual plot arc spans several of these chapters, and even a collected print volume won't start and finish a single plot, but are instead rather arbitrary in many cases.

@shylarah

The keyword I used is "usually" (i.e. most of the time), not all - in most general cases, especially well-known titles such as Naruto, Bleach, One Piece (and the list goes on), each plot arc is spanned across many episodes, hence the "episodic" nature. There are exceptions, such as Ghost in the Shell SAC, where each episode has a focal plot on its own, but all the episodes are tied into the bigger plot of the anime season. For manga, using the given example Detective Conan, it has a small plot (by cases) that spans across a few chapters, and these small plots will then contribute to the bigger plot, about the Black Organization. The episodic/chapter nature in animanga is often (not all the time; I have to keep stressing that I have so far avoided using the word "all" the generalize things without considering exceptions - I am well aware of exceptional cases, which I didn't want to go into details since it's not the main point of this discussion) due to constraints set by the publisher (for manga, some have page restrictions), or budget (for anime, each episode would cost a lot of money to make, so long-running anime like Naruto and One Piece can easily cost over hundreds of thousands, even millions, to produce).

[NekoMizu]

@tsukune
The point of me bringing up the age group demographic is because a novel with a younger demographic is gonna have less complicated words and a novel with an older demographic is gonna be more complicated with the word choices. Otherwise, yeah, demographic really means nothing.

@shylarah
T = Teen (13 - 15)
OT = Older Teen (16 - 19)

Honestly I think the only light novel I've read more than one chapter of is Eromanga-sensei, and I've only read like 2 or 3 chapters of that.

[shylarah]

@tsukune I only categorize by age group because it makes finding them easier in a library. ^.^;;

I've seen very few anime/manga that are episodic, or perhaps I just missed it. Usually the smallest plot is at least two, sometimes three to five eps. Maybe I'm just not watching the right ones. "Episodic" means that each episode stands alone --

Huh. Well I looked it up, and episodic as a general word means loosely connected -- leading to my interpretation of each episode having a distinct plot arc that starts and ends with that ep, and only loose connections between them. But the TV definition says "occurring in installments", which I would interpret as broken into pieces, as with the older Doctor Who broadcasts, or something like a two-parter for a standard series, or even a tv mini-series (which is usually a long thing split into multiple pieces to accommodate airing restrictions). So now I'm not clear what episodic means, and it seems you are using it the opposite way that I use it. O.o

I didn't think that light novels have lots of pictures. And I totally use a bit of flair when conversing. Standard language can have poetry just as easily as pompous prose, and I have encountered very few professionally written books that don't feel smooth. Then again, a single poetic turn of phrase is probably not a make-or-break example, so I don't know. Usually dialogue is written as would be expected of the time period, and then narrative may be the same or it may be different. I've seen straight-forward narrative written like the narrator was speaking to the audience, be it first person or in the manner of Lemony Snicket. Not only that, but you can be conversational and /still/ poetic. It might be more a manner of familiarity with the audience than what words you choose. Something as simple as "Shall we?" might feel poetic, and a jargon-filled spiel between computer programmers can be casual conversation. *shrugs*

[tsukune]

But the TV definition says "occurring in installments", which I would interpret as broken into pieces...

@shylarah

Yep, this is what I mean my "episodic". Sorry about the confusion.

Conversational flair, I think, it's more about portraying the character's personality than a contribution to the overall writing style/structure/language of the entire story, because not all the characters will speak the exact same way as one another. Also, most people don't talk in a poetic way most of the time - that is why I said in general that's not how people converse with one another, but doesn't mean that people don't occasionally say something poetic, either as sarcasm or some other reasons. Certain flairs can also be used to show the time period the story is set or the environment, or even identity of the characters, such as using slang or jargon that are associated with the respective time period, or the occupation/interest of the character, etc. What I mean by artistic flair is the overall flair of the work that includes descriptions, not just dialogues. In light novels, descriptions are kept as minimal as possible, hence the little use of artistry in writing, and therefore more straightforward. Also, standard novels are not as dialogue heavy as light novels as they have substantial descriptions, be it character appearance, the setting/environment, even the progress of events, which light novels tend to cut down a lot.

The "straightforward narrative" that I'm talking about isn't related to the character perspective the writer is using to narrate the story (first = "I", third = "He/She"), but the choice of words and how the sentences are structured to put the point across to the readers. Straightforward would mean that the choice of words are simple that the reader can understand straightaway without having to read the whole context to figure out the meaning of the vocabulary, and the sentence structure are, again, simple and direct, and even plain in some cases, paying little to no attention about trying to vary the sentences to make them flow with a certain flair.

[shylarah]

@tsukune ...Not flowing sounds like bad writing/editing to me, but eh. I guess I'd have to read a designated light novel to understand, as by what you're saying I don't think I ever have.

[BrokenPromise]

I'm currently reading a fan translation of a light novel (Danganronpa Zero, if you couldn't guess, hue hue.)

Descriptions are short, and the dialog acts as a description at times. Kind of like how anime characters will explain what they see. Example:

"This table is so big, and there's even a tablecloth on it!"

It can be more creative than that, but you get the idea.

Most of your narration is how characters are positioned and what they are doing. You don't have long, detailed descriptions of how things look most of the time. The characters themselves are barely described, and instead rely on pictures if I'm not mistaken.

I've also read "All You Need is Kill", which is another translated work from japan. This was a fully fledged novel, and the characters didn't talk like anime characters despite having a gritty anime character on the cover. I do think we have things like light novels here in america, we just don't call them light novels. They really don't read that much differently than some (emphisis, SOME) young adult novels.