Some ideas and thoughts about RPG - as a community, as a writing forum, but mostly just in general

[Dion]

Alright so here's an issue I have been struggling with. Being a 'pre-guildfall' veteran that came in from a Dutch forum originally meant for a game called Mount and Blade, where we roleplayed in Dutch and the plots were centered around the game of the forum, I was not a very good roleplayer. As in, I was really bad, mostly because I was 14 and just.. wasn't that good at coming up with interesting stuff, and well thought out plots, character arcs and other things like that. RPG really brought me up and made me better mostly because the environment was one that made me constantly strive to become better - the people here were objectively better writers than me, I was impressed with their skill, and naturally, I pushed myself to become better (than them) and constantly asked for feedback and remaining humble. For instance until last year I was convinced I could not write in advanced roleplay threads. Now that I have been there, I have experienced that it's much less advanced than I had anticipated (but, exceptions being there, there is a lot of threads that are really advanced.)

In this time period I GMed one of the largest, longest lasting Naruto RP's (if not the single largest longest lasting Naruto RP's) that ever existed on RPG. This was my first RP I ever made together with a friend from that Dutch forum and, as a result, also one of the worst GMed RP's to ever exist (we made it last mostly because we had a lot of veterans from the Naruto RP community help us, as well as a very active head GM (my friend)) and also the first RP where I ever had a character that I was interested in for more than a few months. It was my first taste of a long lasting, persistent RP. It was also my first taste of roleplayers that were just simply put better than me. Some names come to mind that are no longer around (or are) such as Hillan, J8cob, Savato and perhaps most notably Ganryu.

In turn these people uplifted me by more or less forcing me to become better. And that is what I enjoyed so much about the RPG community - it really forced me to be better, to try harder, and it motivated me to do so too. I wanted to become a better writer, I wanted to become a better writer for them because I could give back the same quality they gave me. More examples can be made but the thread would obviously become too large.

Now this is where my issue comes in, or rather, it comes in two parts.

Part one is the community. And to me it seems like something has changed - for the worse. The community as we can tell is dwindling, there are a lot of new faces and that is a good thing but I constantly notice that older faces are leaving, and not coming back. And, constantly, this has spelled out something to me - that the old generation of RPers where the community was so important, and where people helped each other in more ways than just saying 'welcome to RPG!' in the introduction threads, that these people are leaving.

The community has become more self centered, and much more clique-y. Perhaps I feel that way because I try to avoid clique's and always start shit with everyone and their mama, for fun, but still it very strongly feels that way. And I admit it has always been like that. There were a lot of people on here that really RPed Naruto only. And then there were the 'slice of life highschool/college' roleplays. 'Superhero' roleplays and whatever you have. There were still clique's but it seemed like the clique's didn't interact in a negative way where as now that seems to be the case more and more often.

Perhaps that is just my imagination. But, I also partially think the lack of progress with the website is a part of the problem. I mean no ill will towards Mahz - I respect what he does, I respect that he puts himself before RPG, I respect above all that he makes a financial sacrifice to provide this for us. I'd like to repeat what I have always said.. this is a free service offered to us by Mahz that he may terminate at any given time without notification or reason. I don't want to criticize him - because he is already doing more than he has to do for us.

But. The website has fallen still - key features that were promised months ago have not appeared, and while the key components of the forum (i.e. layout, color schemes, and the ability to post, BB codes etc) are all in place some of the nicer side-components are broken. Arena system. Why? Nobody plays in arena anymore. RPG Chat - great idea! Lack of progress made it obsolete and now we have a discord. I'm not going to voice what I think about that, but I think it's sad that an official RPG function has become obsolete because people consider that function to be .. well, worthless. VM system was a great incentive but shitty implementation, as characterizes the most of the issues here. It's broken, doesn't work well, notifications are borked.. I have sent moderators messages offering some insights and critiques and they mostly went ignored or were met with a 'I agree, but I can't do anything about that, because we need Mahz'..

all these things I feel like negatively impacted the traffic from old-time roleplayers. And have in turn created the community we have now.

And admittedly I don't like the direction the new community is going. I'm not sure what the cause is (B-but Buddha you're just getting old and conservative!! Shut up I'm 20) and I am not sure if there even is a cause, perhaps this is just the natural progression of the forum? But I don't like it and I feel slightly concerned for what RPG might become in the future - not enjoyable to me but I have faith RPG will continue to make some people happy as long as it survives. So for that I am glad, but I also wish that it will continue to make me happy too.

And that brings me also to my second issue which might be linked or might not be linked to the first issue. I've felt, growingly, that it is harder to satisfy myself with roleplayers that write below my 'level of writing' and yes that sounds arrogant. I don't care. RPG has made me a better writer and over the years I've become aware that the better I became, the lower the amount of people I 'could' roleplay with on the same level.

Take for example:

I used to write at a casual level of two to four (small) paragraphs and it was always fairly easy to find a roleplay that a) matched my level and b) suited my interests.

Now I write at an advanced level of 6 though often more paragraphs, and a desire to further plot, characters and set the theme of a post more clearly. It is harder to find partners that can match my level post-by-post and also enjoy this process. So, matching my level is hard enough (haha, arrogant again, but those familiar with this problem would understand) and add to that that I've become more specific in my roleplay desires, and you have a lot of trouble finding roleplays and/or partners.

And many people are capable of 'matching post length' and I find that admirable but I can't do it for the life of me. I have become so used to writing out these posts that it's very hard for me to 'dumb it down'. And I find I generally enjoy an RP less nowadays if I do that.

Adding to this is also that a lot of people who write down themselves as 'advanced writers' are more often than not at the level they should be at. I'm not saying post length, either, but just sheer character progression, plot creation, etc. Both the IC furthering of plot, character exposition, posting meaningful posts as well as the OOC process of brainstorming about plot points, ideas, setting changes, location ideas, interesting concepts.. these things used to be so prevalent back then, but now it seems like all I can see in the 1x1 interest checks is 'well, I'm fine with whatever, so I'll just do what you say..' Have people just suddenly turned into sacks of potatoes that can't think for themselves, or is this a growing trend? I hope I am not alone in saying this - that I am not the only one that has noticed this.

Now my idea is that perhaps these two are linked - after guildfall a lot of advanced writers left, a lot of the people that wrote longer posts left, and perhaps the new faces were 'me' at 14 years old - into roleplaying, wanting to get better. And that makes me sad because here I am feeling annoyed when I accidentally end up in a roleplay with them. I want to help them get better - but I put my own pleasure in roleplaying first (I feel no guilt for that).

And lately I have lost a lot of my pleasure in roleplaying bar a few roleplays. Either the other person just doesn't scratch my itch, or we just don't match up OOCly, or.. I don't know, I just don't enjoy the writing? And I know it's not an issue with me getting bored of roleplay, because there are other RP's that I am enjoying thoroughly.

Now with all of this said I should also add that I am grateful we still have this website, naturally. It's a great place. I enjoy shitting around on here and mocking people OOCly (never for their writing - even I have a code of honor) and starting arguments over dumb things. I enjoy it. It makes me happy to fuck around with people. So I am happy this website exists.

But I really think there may be some issues with the website. I am interested in hearing what you all have to think about this, to see if it's just me (which is possible) or if there are more people with similar ideas and experiences.

[Ellri]

The lack of development does indeed make the guild less than it could've been.

we used to keep watch on the suggestions section, to organize the feature requests and had many ideas for developing things like the RP tag system, but with our dark overlord being busy down in mexico, all value of keeping such in order faded, as nothing was developed.

Sure, there's been some changes to the security system to deal with the bot plagues, but beyond that, nothing.

the feature request thread is now one day away from a full year since last post and a year and a half or so since last real activity. Tag system thread is similarly aged.

These days, we use the guild primarily for two purposes: source of players, place to store threads. Everything else (lore, chats, collabs, character construction, etc) is done in alternate places, like discord and google docs.

As for players. We've not really been active in venturing into casual for a long time, so we can't speak on the state of players there. As we tend to be rather demanding as a GM when it comes to sheets, we find that we do not find many new players that stick around our RP. we get a fair amount of interest, but few of those who expressed such ever submitted a sheet, let alone stuck around after we reviewed sheets. Granted, we may have scared a few of those off from our reviews of others.

The guild has seen better days, but it has also seen worse. Right not it feels more like its stagnant than that it is decaying. A real upgrade on several of the features would go a long way towards preventing decay, but we won't expect anything of that sort until its released.

As not all new players are new to RPing, we do think that a lot of the feeling of loss of quality may just as well be a result of the classic "things were better back when we were our age."-thing than an actual significant fall in player quality. Sure, fewer players match our bill too, but we're willing to take on weaker players if it can help them grow. After all, the best way for a weak player to learn is at the hands of stronger players.

[pugbutter]

I'm confused. Are we becoming more cliquey or aren't we? You say we are, but just earlier you had complained of fewer people helping each other, which in excess always manifests itself as favoritism, nepotism, and an atmosphere, among newcomers who would want to join those peoples' RPs, of elitism and exclusivity.

I understand that both can be problematic in a community: cliquey exclusivity, and less diversity in talents, ideas, and RPs. But how can we have both problems simultaneously?

[Dion]

@pugbutter I don't believe that on RPG in a roleplay setting they are mutually exclusive. The cliques manifest in the OOC nature of RPG - the community itself. As a result I believe that people are interacting more often than not negatively. I.e. shitstorms, arguments and just negative attitudes about others.

The lack of talent, ideas and RP's manifests itself mostly in the individuals - not the cliques. The individuals are more often than not part of a clique. We all have select friends off of RPG, so naturally these cliques exist. The lack of these things does not come from the cliques, and I don't believe they are connected. Perhaps you need to explain more but I fail to see the link that makes them exclusive.

I believe the confusion comes from the idea that cliques naturally promote helping each other.. I do not think that is the case anymore and I believe it was the case in the past.

@Ellri Insightful, as I am used to from your/their? posts. The one thing I would add is that not all new players can be 'helped'. You can't skip grades when it comes to roleplaying. A total newbie that doesn't understand basic roleplaying concepts would be better off going from free roleplay to casual roleplay to advanced in their own pace, rather than being forcibly 'transformed' into an advanced roleplayer. But, you understand that as well as I do.

[pugbutter]

I'm not so sure. Once a clique has formed, I think there's a degree of infatuation, whereby a person will glorify his friends' talents but then overlook or even ignore these same people's flaws. Whether this happens consciously or subconsciously I cannot say, but in any case, just read any Guildmate's biography with a "Friends" section and you will witness this bias in action.

I'm obviously not going to name names. But I see Person A gushing in her bio about Person B, and naturally intrigued, I go to Person B's page and browse through his writing. When I see not only stiff, unnatural dialogue and cringeworthy personality development, but also beginner-level shit like mixing up homophones and fucking up punctuation, things which people with "passions" for writing would rather die than do, I realize that Person A has applied a thick layer of sugar frosting over Person B's "amazing" attributes, because they like each other as people.

But then, I'm the sort of guy who thinks friends don't let friends confuse "your" and "you're." So when you say "fewer people are helping each other on this site," I see a silver lining. I might just be a retarded dinosaur, but I'm hard-pressed to admire any community or clique which values obsequiousness over self-improvement. Some people will naturally be scared away by a community which doesn't fawn over them.

[Shoryu Magami]

As not all new players are new to RPing, we do think that a lot of the feeling of loss of quality may just as well be a result of the classic "things were better back when we were our age."-thing than an actual significant fall in player quality. Sure, fewer players match our bill too, but we're willing to take on weaker players if it can help them grow. After all, the best way for a weak player to learn is at the hands of stronger players.

@Ellri

This is more or less the first thing that would've come to my mind. There's an unfortunate reality that a lot of these sorts of problems all come down to perspective. Almost anything won't feel as a good as how it 'used to be' even if there's no significant issue with what's presently available. Different, for sure, but not inherently as much of a decline as people's subjectivity might imply.

The other comment about helping weaker players grow instead of simply casting them aside is also important - and a modus operandi I've always used - since everyone has to start somewhere and what might seem like an 'inferior' player at first glance could blossom into something surprising. I had virtually no experience at role-playing in the play-by-post format ten years ago, and I very quickly shocked people with my ability to adapt. Teaching people instead of judging them is vital, and not just with role-playing -- I'm a high level fighting game player and I encounter weaker players constantly, but instead of looking down on them I take them on as apprentices and they - or at least those who stick with it - end up learning to the point that they can beat professionals like I can. I take this same attitude towards anything that I'm interested in, and role-playing is one of those things.

Personally, I've got no respect for elitism in the sense of people who've been doing things for a long time and having 'experience' thinking it gives them the right to look down on others. At the same time, I also have no respect for the popularity contests that seem to consume most public websites -- seriously, this is a writing site; it isn't Facebook.

With that said, I'm not a long-standing member of the site, and I don't particularly care about how things were before 'Guildfall'. I'm going to limit my discussion here, not only due to having a lot of work to do but because I feel like this thread is probably more appropriate for people who've been here longer since a lot of focus is centred around comparison between the 'now' with the 'before'.

I do agree that the creator of the place needs to make a more active effort to update the site, or at the very leas give a trustworthy moderator some level of power to do so in their place. I've run multiple role-playing sites in the past, and while they were mostly operating on an invite-only policy I believe their activity wouldn't have been as stable had I not constantly been around to keep things together and updated. It's similar to how a role-play will crumble if the GM is incompetent.

The only contribution to this discussion that I'd like to bring is that I think the people on this site - newcomers and old folks both - should be grateful that this site is as lively as it is. Around five or seven years ago the InvisionFree role-playing forums suffered what could be considered a massive plague -- a huge amount of the communities started dying over that period of time and very few - if any - of the role-playing forums managed to keep a hold of their user base during that time. This has resulted in pretty much all of the role-playing forums I used to either be a member of or an observer of closing down.

This place is still active, and not only gets a wide variety of people joining each day but also has a lot of role-playing actually going on. I'm not a 'glass is half full' person, but the positive should be acknowledged where it is and I do think some people who've been role-playing here exclusively potentially take what they have for granted.

[Mao Mao]

Perhaps that is just my imagination. But, I also partially think the lack of progress with the website is a part of the problem. I mean no ill will towards Mahz - I respect what he does, I respect that he puts himself before RPG, I respect above all that he makes a financial sacrifice to provide this for us. I'd like to repeat what I have always said.. this is a free service offered to us by Mahz that he may terminate at any given time without notification or reason. I don't want to criticize him - because he is already doing more than he has to do for us.

But. The website has fallen still - key features that were promised months ago have not appeared, and while the key components of the forum (i.e. layout, color schemes, and the ability to post, BB codes etc) are all in place some of the nicer side-components are broken. Arena system. Why? Nobody plays in arena anymore. RPG Chat - great idea! Lack of progress made it obsolete and now we have a discord. I'm not going to voice what I think about that, but I think it's sad that an official RPG function has become obsolete because people consider that function to be .. well, worthless. VM system was a great incentive but shitty implementation, as characterizes the most of the issues here. It's broken, doesn't work well, notifications are borked.. I have sent moderators messages offering some insights and critiques and they mostly went ignored or were met with a 'I agree, but I can't do anything about that, because we need Mahz'..

all these things I feel like negatively impacted the traffic from old-time roleplayers. And have in turn created the community we have now.

I agree that this site hasn't move forward at all. I was not on during the Old Guild so I can't relate to that period. However, there is a lack of progress made on here. Our Private Message systems needs a major update for example, the notifications need improving, and so on. Mahz, of course, is a great dude with a life that is more important than this site. But, he should get people who can help while he's away. Mahz has been gone for awhile and this site has not changed at all since he left. Again, I mean no ill towards him. In fact, I am grateful for this site because it has improved my writing so much. But at the same time, the Guild needs be updated so we can get new members and stop the old ones for leaving.

In short, Mahz (when he gets back on) should look into getting someone that he can trust to run this site, fix anything issues, and update while he's away at work.

[Dion]

Will reply tomorrow. There are some things I should clarify but I will not bother to do that from my phone. Interesting things are being said though.

[pugbutter]

@The Spectre The quality of the site seems more dependent on the people inhabiting it than the site itself tbh, even if I agree that having a functional PM system would be nice.

I for one was here back when the site was founded (forgot my credentials and had to start a new account after a long hiatus; sue me). And I cannot comment on the quality of RP changing much between then and now; RpG has always had its stratified castes of roleplayers, and the swelling bell-curve of mediocrity who comprise the largest bulk of its population. But I like the site a lot more now than I did then, because back then we evidently were the last bastion of cringelord Scene-kiddies after the fall of MySpace, whereas now we've got a larger contingency of people who take writing seriously, who treat it more as a passion than a pastime, who are here for more than just time-whittling escapism.

There's a saying in the self-defense community: "You don't aim a kick for the groin. You aim for the chin and let the groin get in the way." Silly as it may sound, that is the philosophy which will distinguish great writers from good ones. If you want the less colorful Vince Lombardi version, you would rather say, "Chase perfection and catch excellence."

The cliques definitely still exist but unlike Buddha I think they have diminished over the years. I think the site takes roleplay a bit more seriously now, and that's a good thing, even if it's at the cost of raw numbers (namely population). I like to think we've trimmed more fat than meat over the years.

[Shoryu Magami]

The quality of the site seems more dependent on the people inhabiting it than the site itself tbh, even if I agree that having a functional PM system would be nice.

@pugbutter

I think it's more the VM system that needs to be fixed, rather than the PM system. I haven't had an issue using the PM system yet, but I know people are wanting a way to delete PMs and that isn't - to the best of my knowledge - available yet. I know the VM system isn't too important, but it's really crippled and unreliable right now, and my user bio actually looks very screwed up thanks to how it didn't implement my messages correctly -- there's no way to delete those messages either.

That said, obviously a site can only be as good as its members.

Just a final comment I wanted to make before I got back to things.

[pugbutter]

Yeah, I was talking about deleting PMs mostly. I'm an internet neat-freak so I want to get rid of messages I have no more use for.

Although we have retrograded in other ways too. I remember when the BBCodes let us create

1. numbered
2. lists,

for example.

[Shoryu Magami]

@pugbutter
I get the whole neat-freak thing.

By lists, are you referring to the example I give below? If so, we can still do it.

Example

• Character List
  • Good Characters
    • Captain Messiah
    • Some Obi-Wan Expy
  • Evil Characters
    • Supreme Overlord Trump
    • That Lackey Pence
  • Neutral Characters
    • Undecided Dude
    • Edgy Chaotic Neutral Guy

Not sure what you mean by 'numbered', unless you're just saying being able to number the lists, which you can technically type in manually. Anyway, the coding for lists are still in the BBCode, so check the Formatting Cheatsheet for that information.

Edit: I altered my example, since I didn't like it that much.

[pugbutter]

Yeah, I mean numbered bullets. The code used to look like this:
[list=1]
[*]item one
[*]item two
[*]item three
[*]and so on[/list]

And it would result in a numbered list you didn't have to "type manually" and indent all by yourself. Sure, you can, but why the hell should you have to? It used to be so much easier.

[Shoryu Magami]

@pugbutter
That feature didn't exist when I joined the site, so it must be older. I'm not sure why they'd remove it. I know there's certain coding that they don't allow on this site specifically to prevent it being abused really badly, but the sort of coding we're discussing right now sounds pretty harmless. Dunno why the hell it'd be removed. When exactly was it available?

[pugbutter]

I joined the site in 2009-ish and I drifted away for a super-long hiatus around 2012. It existed then.

Might've been removed with "Guildfall," which I was not around to witness personally.

[Shoryu Magami]

@pugbutter
Yeah, it does sound likely to be a part of the coding that simply got missed in the recreation process.

With that said, the biggest complaint I have about this site since joining is the abundance of people who complain about my posts (regardless of IC or OOC) when they're particularly long. I've said this several times now, but this is a writing-focused website -- people need to learn how to read if they're going to be here.

[Vilageidiotx]

I haven't read the entire thread, mostly just skimmed it, so somebody might have mentioned this before...

...how much of this decay is because of changing culture? I know some younger people use Twitter to RP, for instance. Maybe decay is sort of natural for forums at this point, since those who are attached to forums grow older and get busy, and younger RPers end up embracing other methods of RPing in enough numbers to cause forums to wane.

[Dinh AaronMk]

I haven't read the entire thread, mostly just skimmed it, so somebody might have mentioned this before...

...how much of this decay is because of changing culture? I know some younger people use Twitter to RP, for instance. Maybe decay is sort of natural for forums at this point, since those who are attached to forums grow older and get busy, and younger RPers end up embracing other methods of RPing in enough numbers to cause forums to wane.

@Vilageidiotx

To back this up: I just got Discord and one of the Discord chatrooms, thingies there's a whole section dedicated to basically IRC role-play. The RPG also has to contend with services like Roll20 for traditional pen and paper format RP'ing.

From a branding perspective almost I feel like the question has to be asked: is the Guild for RP'ing broadly, or is it for the niche audience who wants to RP in a way that's like writing cooperative multi-person novels?

[Terminal]

I will only comment here briefly. I have my own issues with the ongoing development of the forum - it extremely difficult for the contest mods and their staffs to administer forum contests independently due to a lack of responsiveness - but seeing as most people do not participate in the forum contests this is effectively a non-priority issue.

I will also say that as a guild veteran myself who was around in Oldguild since 2007, I think one of the biggest problems with the site is that it is not cliquey enough.

I am about to ramp my elitism dial up to 12, so discretion is advised when reading the following.

In essence, ever since I first starting roleplaying I was a regular in the Advanced Subforum, and since NewGuild came along that has remain unchanged. One of the largest community-oriented problems I have seen plague roleplays is the presence of posters who, quite simply, do not write at an advanced level. For nearly every single Advanced roleplay I have participated in, I can recall at least one poster who one might normally expect to see in the mythical Free Subforum (which, as we all know, is just an urban legend and does not actually exist), and then the vast majority of posters would be writing at a casual level. The problem is not just one of relative quality of writing, but also of overall commitment and OOC interaction. I am speaking of individuals who post once and are never seen again, posters who go on blatant power-trips and then insult everyone who disapproves, writers whose attempts to engage in the story consists of five sentences with each one dedicated to a single mundane action.

I have been of the mind for some time that the heart of the problem lies within how each forum describes itself.

Advanced RP focuses on longer posts, often with in-depth plots, character development and extensive settings/lore. Must make a dedicated effort to minimize typographical errors and to use good grammar. Generally two paragraphs, but usually longer. See individual GM for RP specific standards

Advanced Subforum Description

Roleplay here if you enjoy writing at least a paragraph or two, character development, and some depth. Grammar and spelling are encouraged. Generally one paragraph (a few sentences) per post. See individual GM for RP specific standards

Casual Subforum Description

The differences between the two subforums are not distinct enough. There are Casual roleplays that qualify as Advanced and vice-versa, and the large degree of vaguery present in the provided standards makes it so that nobody has any realistic idea of what to expect. New posters coming into the forum can occasionally stick at Casual due to a lack of confidence in their abilities despite writing better than most; others will head straight to Advanced despite having failed to grasp elementary grammar. For forum regulars, you have individuals who might be stellar writers but whose overall activity is mostly theoretical, and then juvenile writings whose activity blots out the sun.

Moreover, thread turnover is a huge, massive problem in both the Casual and Advanced subforums. Regardless of skill, many writers simply grow bored and tired of whatever roleplay they are a part of and leave, leading to stagnation. I get that this is a hobby for most and that jobs preclude full attention at all times, but that is true of most posters to begin with. Even younger posters still need to juggle school and the like, but most will treat having actual responsibilities as some kind of special, unique quality.

Given that, I think - and have proposed in the past - that the subforums should probably not be organized on some arbitrary basis of skill, but instead should cater to individuals depending on how much time, effort, and dedication they are prepared to invest. The Casual Subforum should be for people who do not necessarily want to be committed to a roleplay and want to be able to hold onto the option to bail without any kind of advance notice. Advanced should be for individuals looking for longevity and long-term projects. In theory that distinction alone would include how the Subforums are now, since the latter would (probably) attract more skilled and serious individuals with either time or at least persistence to spare. This would result in greater community coherence within the two Subforums - hence my earlier comment on the forum community not being cliquey enough.

In regards to the actual nuances of the general forum community - I have been Quadruple Secret Banned from both chatrooms and none of the staff will return my calls apart from the other Contest Mods, so I am not really prepared to remark upon the atmosphere of the community. My current impression of the RPG Community is that the various cliques and circuit of regulars in each of the subforums does not consist of individuals with the same expectations, skill, or overall dedication. They are just random people who are interested in the same genre or topic, thrown together through a system of organization that is no better than wholly randomized sorting.

[ArenaSnow]

@pugbutter
Yeah, it does sound likely to be a part of the coding that simply got missed in the recreation process.

@Shoryu Magami

Indeed. Everything here's built from the ground up - I doubt this site is Mahz's priority in life, so I'm not surprised things are missed.