Roleplayerguild and mental health

[Dion]

So after discussing with some people on my RP's Discord, we talked about mental health for a bit and I was reminded of something I was going to write a little topic about to see what everyone else thought. This is about mental health - in the most broad scale of the word.

Over the years that I've spent here I've noticed a recurring trend that there are a large variety of people on here - who mostly share one trait, that trait being that there are a lot of people here with varying degrees of mental illnesses. They often do fall on varying ends of the spectrum of seriousness, to the point of having me wonder if they're really illnesses or not. Regardless, I think it is quite interesting to see how many of us struggle with illness.

Let's get something out of the way first; I myself struggle with mental illness too (genetics fucked me up) but I don't really feel like making a public statement about it because I don't think it really matters too much. But if you wanna come at me for being insensitive about it, please, take a fucking hike and just don't reply, or send me a PM to rant about how much of a cunt I am. Thanks. I know that these issues are serious, I'm not having a fucking laugh, I'm just saying it's pretty interesting to see this development.

As of yet, a lot of my RPG friends struggle with varying degrees of mental illness - the most common one being depression as far as I've been able to tell, and this seems to hold true with most of RPG. Furthermore, a lot of people on here also seem to suffer from anxiety in some way or form, and a lot of people show anti social tendencies (makes sense, therefore, that we choose to be social on an online platform, where nobody can see us, no?). I have spoken to people on this website that are autistic (in, again, the wide sense of that word, as in 'scores somewhere on the autistic spectrum') or have ADHD, ADD, whatever you might name. OCD seems prevalent but I'm not really sure how much of that is real and how much of it is in jest.

Now the theory, which isn't really a theory, is that we use RPG as a form of escapism. While that doesn't hold true for me personally, I can see why it would for a lot of people. Although many of us consider writing as a hobby, we have to admit that any hobby is, in truth, escapism. But I think roleplaying takes it a step further. Where as some might consider soccer a form of escapism for someone who, say, doesn't have a healthy life in their own home, consider that while they play soccer they are still themselves. This goes for a large variety of 'escapist' hobbies. But the one past-time where you do not play as yourself is roleplaying. It's called roleplaying for a reason after all. So perhaps you could consider a 'escapism' that goes even further than regular escapes.

This has lead me to wonder if this is healthy at all? While I can imagine that some might say an escape from 'reality' is normal and to an extent that is true but I also wonder if escaping reality is really all that healthy. Sure, everyone enjoys escaping reality every now and then, but when you struggle with real life issues, I have to wonder if it's healthy to escape from them at any chance, and avoid them like that? It seems/sounds unhealthy.

Anyway, I was also kind of curious as to how realistic my view is that we have a large amount of mental illness on this website. I don't want to hear about peoples personal stories, because honestly, those tend to sound like people being crybabies. But, feel free to let me know if you think mental illness is present on this forum, and if so, how present precisely? Do you think that people on this website are aware of their illness? And do you feel the escapism roleplaying offers is healthy, unhealthy or perhaps both?

[Shoryu Magami]

Psychology's one of the fields I specialize in, even if not professionally. I'm usually able to analyse a person's mental state very easily and get in their head, and honestly I've been acting as a psychologist to people for most of my life.

I won't comment much here, simply because my situation is overtly complicated even for people with circumstances involving 'mental illness'. I won't go into any detail about what ailments people believe I do or don't have, but I'll say that virtually all of the conditions I've been diagnosed with throughout my life have later turned out to be mistakes. With this in mind, it's not actually possible for me to properly tell you what ailments I do or don't have because to this day no doctor has possessed the ability to give a realistic analysis of it.

Since I don't know what classifies as talking about personal stories as opposed to using experience as a means of making analysis (the latter is the primary reason why I'll bring up my past in any conversation, since frankly I don't give a shit about my past and I've overcome it, but it's still offered me worlds of personal insight into a lot of matters that most people don't have and will simply make 'educated guesses' regarding), I'll just not even bother going into any detail about my opinions of how mental illness impacts this site.

What I will say is the mental health issues are actually incredibly common, primarily because the very notion of 'normal' is superficial and subjective to begin with. Sure, you'll find some people who're really 'out there', but overall I think you'll be hard pressed to find many people in the world who don't deal with some sort of ailment at some point in their life. With this in mind, it's my personal opinion that it's completely unsurprising that a large majority of people on this site likely suffer from some sort of mental illness. To be perfectly frank with you, there isn't many 'normal' people in the world who've got the capacity for creative writing in the first place. There's exceptions to every rule, but there's a fine line between 'madness' and creativity.

That being said, I'm actually one of those who doesn't use role-playing or writing as a means of escapism at all.

[Dion]

@Shoryu Magami It is also my opinion that we are grossly over diagnosing certain 'illnesses' so I believe you are right that we will be hard pressed to find anyone not mentally ill. But I was referring more to those that clearly suffer some 'not-normal' illness. Everyone gets anxious from time to time - but as you understand as well as I do, there is a very large area between 'being nervous sometimes' and 'literally crying and vomiting because you have to present something' or something like that.

I'm interested in your opinions on how mental illness affects this site, what I meant about personal stories were more along the lines of 'I have depression, please feel bad for me people.' as a means of an argument to support some other notion. Having a mental illness does not make you an expert on that illness/mental illness in general, which was the argument I was trying to avoid.

[Shoryu Magami]

@Buddha
With the specifics of what you meant by 'not going into personal stories' in mind now, I'll try to give a more thorough response later on. I actually need to head out the door for a family meeting within the next half an hour, so most of my time's gonna be spent preparing for that. I won't be back until late tonight (it's 10:12 AM currently).

One quick thought before I head off:

Having an illness doesn't inherently make someone an expert on an illness, but it can make them have a better understanding of the weight it can carry on a person's life. After all, one of the reasons that many people in this world fail to understand something is due to lacking the ability to empathize with it. This is particularly common in social classes, where people who're rich are incapable of understanding the struggles of the misfortunate because they've lived their entire life with a silver spoon in their mouth. They take things for granted that others would consider a blessing, and they consider minor inconveniences to be serious problems. I'm not in disagreement with you though, because I know most of my insight comes from a natural ability to understand human psychology well, not because of whatever I suffer from.

[Lady Absinthia]

I could go into a long list of pros and cons to rping by those with and without mental illness. Over 20 years online doing this and I've probably seen it all from each age group and spectrum.

If you look at most any creative person chances are they have something that separates them from the "norms" - The more creative, chances are the more mental illness is present. Just look through history at the greats in Art, Acting, Writing, etc. Even genius's in technical, mathematical, and scientific fields. Anyone from Williams to Van Gogh to Tesla, it's present.

I think the same goes for Rpers. We create world's to either help deal or explore our personal issues. Healthy? Maybe not, especially if we are pushing the envelope but there are worse games to play.

Lady A~
Bi-Polar

[BrokenPromise]

I think young people like to give themselves labels. It starts in school, where we split up between jocks, brainiacs, tomboys, or whatever other group we chose to join. We do this because such labels make us feel like we're part of something bigger, and it stops us from embarrassing ourselves doing something that we're not good at. "I'm a brainiac, I don't do sports!" or "I'm a boy, I don't play with dolls!" So there's some isolation there were these people (usually kids) join a label to opt out of things they aren't good at, or are too scared to try. As we get older though, we tend to drop such labels... usually.

I think mental disorders are no different. I think people like giving their weaknesses names because it makes them feel less exclusive, and also means that there's nothing they can do about it. Someone who says "I have ADD" or any of it's variants chooses to take a pill to solve their problem instead of making an effort to pay more attention. I remember being told by a grown man "I think I have ADD, because I really don't like to listen to other people." That's a possibility, but you could also just be an ass hole.

I'd like to stress that I do believe mental illnesses exist, I just don't think they are as wide spread as people make them out to be. For some it's just a crutch for people who don't want to overcome their problem.

I also strongly disagree with role playing being dangerous because of it being a strong form of "escapism." I do not want to trade places with most of my characters on my worst days. My job is also in retail, so I have pretty good people skills. Could it be dangerous? Possibly. Isn't everything dangerous in excess? Yes.

I think forums themselves are a form of escapism. writing whatever you want under the veil of anonymity. I can be a cute school girl or a big beefy muscle man, and nobody can say otherwise. I think that's more dangerous than play by post roleplaying, because I'm escaping directly in front of real people.

[Dolerman]

I dont even take self diagnosis with a pinch of salt, I just straight up dont listen anymore.

Depression, Autism and Anxiety are real, common and to be taken seriously when accurately diagnosed.

But sadly I do think there is a tendency for some younger RPers and a couple older ones to just slap a label on themselves because they dont nessecarily fit in with their extremely subjetive and narrowly percieved definition of what the 'mainstream' is.

I mean can anyone really give me an exhustive defination of what a 'normie' is? Or how they think and live their lives?

We are all different and we are all creative. But to varying degrees, some of us have more desrie to express our creativity some have more free time.

Also just as final note, Mental illness gets thrown around too much, sometimes you just have personality disorder. The level of cringe when everyone at my college started calling themselves 'Sociopaths' when Sherlock and later Hannibal were popular was unbearable.

[Heap241]

There's a lot I could speak on with this subject, and to be completely honest, most opinions of this rank I typically don't share publicly as it causes unwarranted tension and friction. A good opinion once lost, is lost forever. That being said, don't read my post and start a fight over it. I'm more of a factual person then an opinionated one anyway.

That being said...

I don't know that there are many people in the world or in history who did not have a modern "mental illness." Before I continue, let me preface that I personally have a lot of history with mental illnesses. My mother was an actual sociopath, to an extent of also being a pathological lier. My older sister tried committing suicide at the age of 16 and in a desperate attempt to not take responsibility my mother had her committed to a mental institution where we discovered she had sever Bi-Polar disorder. My younger sister has ADD but is one of the most outgoing encouraging people you could meet. I personally have sever PTSD. After this period I worked as a caregiver at a special needs daycare where our primary focus was giving care to children with sever and minor mental disabilities, downs-syndrome children, handicap children, children with extreme allergies etc. Let me also state, the only reason why this is being stated is to give you a recount of my opinions, not for a pity cry or an attention grab.

Now, while there are many people with sever cases of mental disorders, I don't think it is something people should view so negatively. As my opening statement said. I don't think there are many people in the world or in history that did NOT have some sort of mental ability or disability. This is not a weakness, it's a personality. Yes, there are some cases where extra care and attention are required but, for the most part these mental states are just natural setbacks as most people have in any area of their life. Not everyone who can't spell has dyslexia. Some may not be the brightest, this does not mean they are mentally retarded. Some may be brilliant, this does not make them a genius, in fact many cases of brilliance can be traced back to mild-sever forms of ADD or ADHD. Please see Albert Einstein as a reference.

Just as @BrokenPromise stated, people use these labels as an excuse for their behavior or to classify themselves with a group. Instead of fixing the issues they have with certain behaviors or circumstances, which can be done. I knew a little boy with autism who when he first came to the center was unapproachable, but by teaching him that he was okay, that it's okay not to be good at everything and in turn including him with the other children, etc, etc, I won't go to far into the details of this case, he turned out to be one of the kindest, most thoughtful children I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. He had a love more living creatures that I rarely see in any human being, mentally disabled or otherwise. Again, just because someone may have a disability it doesn't give them an excuse for their behavior. Do you think there have been no human beings in history without depression? Do you think they just threw down the hat and said, "Okay, that's it, I'm done." and just stopped everything? (these are rhetorical questions) There would be no history and no current if that was the case.

Okay now, on your statement about using RPG as an escape from reality, I don't think it is any different then playing a video game, watching a movie or TV show, reading a book, etc. Aren't all of those cases escaping from reality? So many people come home from a day at work and just turn on the television and close their mind off from the rest of the world. At least role-playing is a creative outlet, where people are bettering themselves in their writing ability and learning from the situations that come up within the role-play. It would only be considered "unhealthy" if like in any situation they ignored whatever was going on completely. Sometimes people have to wait out bad situations and given that time, would not want to spend the bulk of it dwelling on their poor state. If there were no outlets for bad situations, getting out of such situations would mean suffering for a time afterwards in a sorrier state then you would have been if you got your mind of it for a little while here and there.

Now, let the bitching begin. I'm ready.

[TheMadAsshatter]

I would like to say that I'm a fairly healthy person mentally. I got into roleplaying as a result of a couple of random chance encounters with people who seemed to be acting through a video game that I played a lot. I was probably 7 or 8 at the time and didn't really understand the idea yet, but it felt like they were creating a story as they were going, and that kinda just stuck with me as I grew up.

My personality has changed quite a bit in that time, though RPing took a back seat between second and tenth grade, which is when I kinda re-discovered it; more importantly a more refined version of it as opposed to impromptu scenarios played out through videogames and shit. In that timespan, I tended to get fucked around with in school. I wasn't without friends, but in classes where I didn't have any good friends I tended to get singled out. That made me go from outgoing and friendly to reserved and cautious about anything even remotely social. I also somewhat believe, though cannot confirm, that this may have also triggered some mild depression that stuck with me pretty much since eighth grade. In my experience, it generally seems to be caused by the perception that tons of people I'm surrounded by seem to make new friends so easily, and I, as of yet, haven't made any more good friends since High School.

Sorry, ranting and getting off topic. Anyways, writing started to become a thing with me in High School. I enjoy, and really always have enjoyed, making stories. I'm not sure if there's any correlation between my mental state and my writing, or RPing, with the possible exception that me getting burnt out on stories after so long tends to fuel a dissatisfaction with my own creativity, partially because I'm always wanting to change things, and then realize I'd have to rewrite so much shit that I'd just stop it completely for lack of wanting to put in the effort to completely change it. Like, I can create these things in my head, but manifesting them in any physical medium takes so much goddamn time and effort and polishing and refining that I burn myself out and stop coming up with any more ideas for it; not because I don't want to, but it just becomes a mental block. I just sit there and wonder "How the fuck do I want to press on from here."

It helps when there's other participants to keep pushing the story forward. You may run into a block for a bit, but then the story may progress a bit and you'll find yourself reinspired. I think for me, a large part to blame is a lack of focus and decisiveness.

God damn, that was way more long-winded and ranty than I had intended. And I realized that I completely missed the point of this thread.

As far as escapism goes, I used to think of it that way, but now, at least from my perspective, I just see roleplaying as a pasttime. I'm sure that's a completely subjective aspect about roleplaying that's more reflective of one's personality than anything that's causal of roleplaying. Is it unhealthy? That also depends on the person. From what I've seen on the forums, most people don't seem to be allowing roleplaying to negatively affect their psyche.

Now that I think about it, for those who do have struggles in their lives, they may view RPG as a source of stability. The stories can vary wildly in every sense, but the process is the same. You come up with an idea, you get a few people onboard, and you start collaborating and contributing your own pieces to that idea. You've committed to an ongoing process; something that could be a source of accomplishment. You're improving your writing skills, and your ability to adapt to changing scenarios when someone throws a curveball into the story.

Really, I'm sure roleplaying serves a different purpose for everyone in their own ways, but I think that it's somewhat rare to see any legitimate cases where roleplaying has any adverse effects on one's psyche, or exacerbates any existing issues. Possibly in my case, it's a social gathering; everyone is fairly like-minded enough, and generally welcoming.

[Chrononaut]

There's way too many people who claim they have mental issues for all of them to actually have a serious one. I had a psychiatrist diagnose me with anxiety disorder, but I've seen at least three people who had variations or supposedly the same thing who acted completely differently (my sister, mostly functional just very specific about how she does things, a security guard who is very friendly but acts a bit off, and some woman at my hospital who locked herself in the bathroom for hours and panicked if you tried talking to her and also tried grooming/cleaned her genitalia in another bathroom later on).

Another psychiatrist told me the opposite, which was a year later so a lot had changed, changing the diagnosis. I was also diagnosed with ADHD and depression at one point, the first was diagnosed when I was a hyper child and the other because I was a teenager. I think many people here are probably misdiagnosed due to age. Besides that, I don't buy the theory that roleplaying attracts people looking for an escape from reality. There's plenty of people here who legitimately like writing and don't absorb themselves into characters. Are actors also trying to escape from reality? People who play DnD? It's too simple of an explanation.

God forbid anyone actually enjoy writing characters and stories. That would be too positive.

[Vilageidiotx]

I have problems with anxiety that makes it difficult to sleep. I do, however, feel like that is an almost normal complaint among people in general, just not on the internet.

[shylarah]

I wish to preface this by saying I was first diagnosed with mental illness in first grade, and while my diagnoses have changed over the years (I'm now a few years shy of thirty) mental illness has always played at least a minor role in my life.

One reason why diagnoses are incorrect, or change, is because this is still very much an emerging field. You can look at someone missing a limb and go "yeah, you're definitely missing a limb". Not so easy to look at a brain and say "yeah, you're wired completely differently." ...Actually not so easy to look at a brain at all, but that's another matter. Additionally, mindset, belief, and a million other factors affect manifestation of such things, as well as the efficacy of treatment. Placebo effect, or even possibly a reverse (not certain on that one).

Characters with difficulties are characters people enjoy. It's no fun seeing a character that doesn't struggle. It might not be a mental struggle, but the difficulties of those that deal with mental illness and those around them do give a greater insight into struggles in general, even as breaking a leg or handling a chronic illness might. However, since mental illnesses tend to affect the mind more directly, I think it might be a little more direct in its effects. *shrug* Possibly not. But because a lot of the affected appear normal at first, it's much easier to pretend to be normal -- and this gives insight into the troubles of a character struggling with something else, like perhaps a personal dilemma.

I would not say that mental illness automatically makes people more creative. And I do agree that there is not really a single norm for minds. Nor is mental illness somehow a bigger problem than so many other things in life. Everyone has problems of one sort or another. Self diagnosis is bogus, in my opinion, and medication is not a replacement for effort, coping skills, or control. It is merely an aid. I see a noticeable difference in whether or not I am able to maintain focus, and how hard I have to work at it, when I do not take my medication. There's also a marked difference in my mood. I should note that I come across as pretty bubbly most of the time, but that it has always felt natural to be so. I am on a mood stabilizer, and without it I consistently feel listless and weighed down. I was actually /not/ on it for a while a few months ago, and it was pretty awful. People who don't produce the right amounts of insulin take medication. If my brain doesn't produce chemicals in the right quantity to function reasonably, I don't see medication for that as much different than a diabetic's insulin. It's just a lot harder to pinpoint and sort out.

I feel, in the end, that most rpers are escaping in one fashion or another. I'd argue that writing and reading are similar escapes. Video games too, actually -- anything other than dealing with the people and world around you. There's escapes irl too, of course, but essentially anything where you can set your current circumstances aside is technically an escape. This does not mean it's a bad thing; far from it. The world would be a far darker place without the stories created by those who escape their life, if only briefly. And it doesn't have to be the implied "never deals with real life" of the word "escapism". I feel some escaping is healthy. I mean, when you're arguing with someone, might you take a step back and go calm down? That right there is stepping away from the current situation for a while. And like any other hobby, rp can be beneficial, exercising useful skills and easing stress.

There's some concern about the impersonal nature of online communication, but as people are more and more connected via the internet, I wouldn't say it completely lacks the intricate social component of face-to-face relationships. It's merely another form of interaction, and people can be just as close online as they can irl in many ways (though I'm still waiting for a way to hug long-distance. And send food, we need to be able to send food.) And because the internet allows a person to get in touch with a wider network of people, support communities for people in various groups that might not have a large concentration in their physical area are far easier to find online. It can even lend a degree of anonymity, in certain cases, or facilitate sharing by people who have difficulty in person. That component does support the impersonal argument, but again, I think it's not lacking but merely different.

It does seem to be true that a significant number of rpers, or even people on various online sites, have some sort of mental illness. There's also a significant number with chronic physical illnesses that interfere with their irl lives. I think that social anxiety, depression, and various other mental difficulties lend themselves better to online interaction than physical, where the "average" person might spend more hours out and about. Before staying home meant staying away from people. It no longer does, and socializing online can fill a portion the need for human interaction without many of the pressures of seeing people in person. Since the ones that don't want any interaction are likely not going to be interacting online, the medium tends to naturally separate the different groups. Also, oddly enough, it seems that a lot of the people who are the least social in person are the most social online, perhaps because we make up the difference of our interaction quota digitally.

RP, in and of itself, is not unhealthy. Video games and reading are not unhealthy. But anything that has an overall negative impact on a person's life should be noted and moderated accordingly. I'm not going to give up ice cream because eating it makes me gain weight. But I'm certainly not going to have it every day, either. In the end, what's healthy varies from person to person. If someone is escaping in rp to the point where they do not handle necessary aspects of life, this is unhealthy. The same is true for someone who skips taking care of things to go to parties. In the end, it's a matter of personal circumstances and degree. The situation you presented, @Buddha, "escaping at any chance", I would call unhealthy in that it actively avoids necessary activities. But if it's "escaping as a coping mechanism so they have the spoons to handle irl difficulties better", this would be a positive. I myself have done -- still do -- the latter. I find rp to be a major way to unwind. I probably do tip over a little into the unhealthy area, but if I wasn't rping I would be escaping in books, sleep, or just going out and ignoring the things that I'm avoiding. ^.^;; ...All of which I also do, so it's not the rp that's the issue. It's the ignoring part. *eyes her kitchen floor with a sigh*

I should point out that rp is not the only instance where you play as someone else. Video games allow it as well -- as does tabletop rp, in certain circumstances, though it depends on how story-oriented your group is. I've also done written rp in person, though it's usually far faster to type than to write. Also easier to keep track of. So really it comes down to what a person is seeking from rping. In my case, it's a small part escape, but a large part creativity, mental exercise, interaction, and amusement.

The stereotype is people who rp to avoid reality and do nothing else. The stereotype is unhealthy, but the stereotype is largely inaccurate. Figure out what's healthy for you. <3

[Dion]

So, I feel like I should clarify. When I am talking about mental illness/health, I am not referring to 'oh, I have trouble paying attention sometimes, I must have ADD'. As I mentioned somewhere before (here?) I am of the opinion that doctors nowadays are grossly over-diagnosing certain disorders (like ADD, like ADHD) to make their own lives easier/because people exaggerate their shown symptoms (lol, look at me, I have problems focusing on people!!!) or to simply sell drugs.

Furthermore, I don't think those that are genuinely ill (speaking more in terms of actual illnesses and not so much the disorders) will openly speak about their issues. Like, at all. If you can come on RPG and declare openly 'oh, I have anxiety disorder!' then something inside of me switches and goes 'well, apparently you're not as anxious as you say you are.'

So for the purpose of this discussion I was going to ignore those people and focus solely on those that are actually mentally ill. Like I said, I personally have met a lot of people that cope with one illness or another, on RPG. I was posting here merely to, say, see if that was correct for others too. It seems not - or at least, it seems that the idea of what constitutes a mental illness causes some people to believe that we are either all mentally ill, or nobody is. I thought I was clear with what I was trying to discuss but it seems not. My bad, I guess.

---

@Shoryu Magami In my opinion, depending on the illness, it might make someone less inclined to see reality, and more inclined to see their view of it. Take for example anxiety - if someone experiences anxiety in an unhealthy way for unhealthy reasons, then I would say that, sure, they understand the workings of anxiety better. But they might also have some ideas about it that do not match reality. Think for example their personal experiences with anxiety.. the idea that people do not understand anxiety, that people laugh at people with anxiety, or something like that. It doesn't happen in all cases - but to them it certainly seems that way.

Regardless, not really central to the point I am trying to make. I agree that someone with a mental illness/disorder (depending on the type, obviously we should not expect someone with severe mental disorders to understand their own conditions) might understand their own disorder/the feelings this disorder creates better than someone who does not. On the other hand, I also feel like in some cases it might severely limit someones understanding of reality/objectiveness of the disorder.

@Lady Amalthea Inclining to agree with you here. I think that artists, creators, or creative people generally do divert from the norm. It has also kind of become the stereotype (of creative people) that they are different and I suppose we can all agree that that is at the very least true in the stereotype way.

I think the question of whether it is healthy or not depends entirely on the intent of the roleplayer. If you are escaping for the purpose of enjoyment I don't see why not. This type of escape, to me, seems like it offers some form of enjoyment similar to a hobby while maintaining real life duties and such. It doesn't push away the thought that, okay, I am mentally ill and I need to fix that.

But what I have seen as well is that (especially younger roleplayers) get caught in roleplayerguild and use it as a literal escape from reality. It is no longer a hobby (though, I am sure they enjoy it) but it becomes an alternative to real life - and that I find is dangerous, because it means people will not deal with the real world and instead go here to escape. Again, noticeably more present among younger roleplayers, who may or may not be genuinely ill (we have all felt depressed at a young age in our teens, though I would not chalk that up as depression).

One example for this I could give is a guy I roleplayed with who had problems at home, and got addicted to the internet/roleplayerguild as a means of not dealing with his family. And to me, that is very dangerous, because it's bound to 'explode' at some point.

Now obviously that does not go for all roleplayers, but it's still an interesting thing to me.

@BrokenPromise We seem to be on the same page, though again, I wasn't talking about labels. I was talking about people that are genuinely mentally ill. So while I agree with your argument, I don't really think it matches what I was trying to say.

The issue I have with what you wrote for example is that ADD, while it's a disorder/illness, can be chalked up to be a personality trait rather easily. And I agree that with the overdiagnosis of ADD and ADHD among other it's becoming more and more alluring to do that as we see more and more people that do not genuinely have ADD/ADHD/what have ye being diagnosed with those.

However, as those are not the ones I want to discuss (because we are on the same page about that) I feel like I should point out that those who are genuinely suffering from those things do in fact genuinely have ADHD, and writing them up as 'just not being able to sit still' is avoiding the problem.

I think the first step is stopping the over-diagnosis, because that's what hurting those that are really incapable of focusing/sitting still.

@Dynamo Frokane More or less the same goes to you.

@Heap241 Now see, that's where I think you are wrong. Let us first separate 'being depressed' from an actual depression. Everyone is depressed every once in a while and you are correct in that, but these people do not suffer a depression. Being sad =/= a depression. And just like that your argument falls apart. Do I think there was ever someone who wasn't depressed? Um, no, probably not, most people get depressed now and then. Do I think there was ever someone who didn't suffer a depression? Well, yes. A lot of people never suffer a depression of the size where it becomes unbearable to do anything at all.

And that is the key point here isn't it? Just like with ADHD - do I think there are people that often feel restless and need to keep moving? Yes, probably everyone feels like that sometimes. But what about the people that always feel this way, who literally can never sit still? Do you not think that to them it might be an actual issue? As in, it is literally something in their body that is making them feel this way, not just 'personality?'

And although I agree that someones conditions do not give them an excuse (socially) for their behavior, I do think that it certainly goes a long way to explain it.

So, I feel like I should point out that there is a gray area between 'traits' and 'disorders/illnesses' and that those often become visible when you talk about how it affects someones life. Someone that occasionally feels restless will not feel like it will affect their life all that much. But someone with genuine ADHD might feel like it does affect their life a lot. Writing that off as 'well, their problem, they should fix their personality' doesn't really help them because they are incapable of that.

But, once again, over-diagnosis has skewed what people perceive about mental illnesses and/or disorders. Again, these are not the people I want to discuss. I want to discuss the people who genuinely have something in their body/head that makes them feel the way they feel. Not Bob, your uncle, who thinks he has ADHD because he likes to be busy.

But how do you look towards illnesses like chronic depression and dysthymia, both of which can be proven that they are not only personality but also the chemical balance in the body? Surely you would agree that in those cases it's more than just 'being unable to sit still' and actually becomes more grounded? Just for clarification - those are the people I am talking about. Where we can actually prove there is something inside of them that is causing this.

And despite that Roleplaying is a creative outlet, I still think it might have more adverse effects than positive. Being a great writer isn't going to help you if you are struggling with depression. It may help you cope, but when you break, you break, and being able to write a nice novel won't stop you from hanging yourself.

And that is really the question then; if you use roleplaying as an escape and do not focus on real life as well, is that dangerous? Does it mean you might 'break' sooner by ignoring your real life duties and such? And yes the same would go for videogames and movies and food and anything you might get addicted to as a manner of escape, I agree.

@Chrononaut Agreed on the first bit. Over-diagnosis is a bitch, as I said. This is the thing I've been pointing out though - those that are genuinely ill probably do not speak openly about it, and probably do not even look for professional help. Or at least, not immediately. For every diagnosis of depression, for example, I am sure there are 10 people (statistics show they are probably middle aged white males, so imagine if you're a middle-aged white male.. would you look for professional help? Probably not) that actually do suffer from depression who do not get diagnosed because they don't want to be diagnosed.

Your personal anecdote doesn't really do much for me though. Not sure what you wanted me to take away from that.

@Vilageidiotx Probably. I mean that really just highlights how we are all somewhat mentally ill, to varying degrees of it, isn't it? One could say everyone suffers from an anxiety type disorder - it's just that some people never suffer from the symptoms and others suffer from it to a much higher degree. So where do we cut off 'who is ill' and where do we say these are just personality traits?

@shylarah

I think the reverse placebo effect is interesting, though. I mean, thinking about it, I would never accept professional help. And I could understand that some people might suffer a reverse placebo effect - imagine taking pills for your depression. I can imagine a lot of people would be satisfied with it because it artificially restores chemical balances making you feel 'happier'. But I can also imagine that for a lot of people, this wouldn't feel 'real'. And that might lead to a reverse placebo - where the medicine actually makes you feel worse because you realize you're not actually happy, you just feel that way because of pills.

Interesting.

I think you are on the right track when you say that escapism is something inherent to all hobbies. Though, I feel like roleplaying might again be a step further on the level of escape, because it doesn't focus on the 'self' as much as the 'other' (i.e. your characters) and takes away any thoughts about real life because, well, you're not thinking about real life, but about the character. But in the same way I'd argue that it is the same as reading, gaming, watching a movie, or playing a sport. It's escape in the end. Even social interaction can be 'escapism' from your illness. So, the definition of escapism really could be dependent on what you are trying to escape from. So as long as you are not working on (issue x) then you are escaping from it. That would mean that regardless of what you are doing, you are always doing something that is escaping from something else.

Perhaps a bit too deep there.

I suppose you hit the nail on the head, however, noting that anything that you do to escape ultimately does not come from the act itself, but rather the effect of that act being that you're ignoring something else. That would mean that in moderation it shouldn't be bad - as long as you're still working on real life.

As for what's healthy for me, I don't think RPG has anything to do with my problems to be fair. Like I said, genetics fucked me, so it's not like I can change anything about that. Going on RPG or not won't change the situation - which, like those with chronic physical disabilities, is true for most things in life. I find that in the case of genetic things that you can't change, it's best to just come to terms with that stuff.

[shylarah]

@Buddha it's easier to be open about a lot of issues online because of the additional degree of separation. This can be from relationship issues to mental issues. Yes, there are people who assume because they exhibit some of the outward symptoms that they have the illness, but I believe most of the ones I've actually talked to were officially diagnosed in some capacity, due to specific things that were mentioned.

The matter of going undiagnosed is usually because the person does not know they have the condition, even though they may be aware of the symptoms. Self diagnosis may follow this. But it may be that they don't realize their issues are particularly unusual, or they simply don't wish to acknowledge it. By the very nature of not acknowledging the issue, that person is not going to discuss it. It is only those who are aware of the issue and to some degree accept it that will say they have a mental illness -- well, aside from self diagnosers and attention-seekers.

Rp and video games do focus on the other, but they also deal with very real social concepts, when done well. And in the case of rp, interaction with the group is beneficial. Social interaction is less an escape if the illness involves social matters -- and I'd argue this includes depression. If you're doing something at seriously involves the issue and not completely neglecting it, that's actually close to working on it, or at least maintaining management. You keep from having to go on a serious diet by eating reasonably and exercising regularly. So going on a walk und a mall with a friend is socializing, having fun, /and/ it doesn't count as ignoring your health.

Medication doesn't...it's a bit more complicated than just "take this and be happy". It's more like how allergy meds get rid of the fog from allergies and allow a full spectrum of function. I can't put it into words very well, but depression isn't sadness, nor is happiness the opposite (nor the solution).

My first diagnosis was ADHD, in first grade. And it wasn't merely a matter of not sitting still. Indeed, I would sit wuietly in my room for hours, reading or making up stories with my toys. However, if I was bored or unengaged -- such as in school, where I swiftly mastered the material and was not permitted to constantly interject -- I did not. I'm not 100% certain I have ADHD, as my diagnoses have changed over the years multiple times. I believe at one point ADHD was removed, but I think it was recently re-added, combined with depression, instead of bipolarity.

Whether rp is an effective coping skill depends on the person. A lot of people say, for example, to do a little cleaning every day, so it's not overwhelming. But just dusting or just sweeping is equally stressful to me as scrubbing the entire kitchen from ceiling to floor. So breaking it up is actually counterproductive, in my case. I remember having a few other examples like this, where the general advice is useless and actually hurts, in my case. This means that it's less the rp and more the actively ignoring the issue that causes breakdowns or explosions. ...in addition to trying and failing, of course.

I will also say that simply accepting that there's an issue is not sufficient. It is a step in a process that generally spans a lifetime. Mental illness is a continuing issue, and so handling it is necessary long-term.

[Dolerman]

@Dynamo Frokane More or less the same goes to you.

@Buddha

What goes to me? I said like 6 things.

[Dion]

@Dynamo Frokane I'll entertain you then, I guess.

I dont even take self diagnosis with a pinch of salt, I just straight up dont listen anymore.

@Dynamo Frokane

k, not relevant to the topic at hand

Depression, Autism and Anxiety are real, common and to be taken seriously when accurately diagnosed.

@Dynamo Frokane

yep

But sadly I do think there is a tendency for some younger RPers and a couple older ones to just slap a label on themselves because they dont nessecarily fit in with their extremely subjetive and narrowly percieved definition of what the 'mainstream' is.

@Dynamo Frokane

I guess, but those aren't the ones I want to discuss

I mean can anyone really give me an exhustive defination of what a 'normie' is? Or how they think and live their lives?

@Dynamo Frokane

I don't see how normies are the topic at hand

We are all different and we are all creative. But to varying degrees, some of us have more desrie to express our creativity some have more free time.

@Dynamo Frokane

probably

Also just as final note, Mental illness gets thrown around too much, sometimes you just have personality disorder. The level of cringe when everyone at my college started calling themselves 'Sociopaths' when Sherlock and later Hannibal were popular was unbearable.

@Dynamo Frokane

Again, not really relevant to the people I wanted to discuss

Perhaps this will explain why I didn't really see the need to go into what you said any further because none of it relates to the actual thing I wanted to discuss, namely people on RPG with actual health issues (not attention seekers) and the relation between roleplaying and mental health issues.

[BrokenPromise]

@Buddha I guess you have to give a better example of people with mental disorders then, because you actually mentioned ADD/ADHD/ and whatever else in your opening post. What makes you so sure your encounters with people with mental illnesses weren't labels?

Perhaps the reason for our differing perceptions is how we view web forums as a whole. When I go to forums frequented by people age 20-25+, very few if any of them complain about their mental problems. They do like to take a spin on the soap box mind you, their mental stability just never seems to come up. It's only in these gathering places of dark, brooding teens do I ever see all of these mental problems. Even in real life I notice that younger people are much more willing to mention they have a mental illness. Because of this personal experience, I believe most of these people claiming to have mental illnesses were either misdiagnosed or simply spent too much time on web MD. Or as you and I have been calling it, a label. But you specified that wasn't what you wanted to talk about. So I must see far more labels and you must see far more genuine mental illnesses, in the exact same people.

[Dion]

@BrokenPromise no, the question at hand isn't about people with labels, because I'm talking about hypothetical people with mental disorders or illnesses that are genuine. It's not about the people we see, it's about the people that genuinely have an illness. Whether they exist or not isn't really the question - unless you're trying to answer whether or not they frequent this place, in which case your argument might be that they do not but some pretend that they have illnesses or disorders.

Which I would agree with, in most cases.

But for the second question, whether roleplay could be seen as harmful, I am talking about those with legitimate illnesses or disorders.

Those I have spoken with from RPG are all diagnosed, and often are all well over the age of 18. Actually most of them are. So, that's not the issue here. Didn't I say that I agreed with the fact that there are a lot of diagnoses that do not hold up true? I'm very critical of people with mental illness especially here. But in my friend group on RPG, struggle with mental health is very prevalent. Perhaps that is due to the type of people I prefer to hang out with, but well, that's how it is.

Also, I do not visit other forums, because they're a breeding spot for idiocy in most cases and RPG isn't really excluded. Mind you I probably partake in that, but that is besides the point. So I have no idea what other forums are like (and, well, that's also why I didn't mention any.)

It also seemed you misunderstood. I was talking about ADHD, ADD, and whatever else. But I was talking about them in the sense of those people that have actual ADHD, ADD, etc. Not those that get diagnosed with it. The diagnosis and the actual mental presence of these things are two separate things to me due to the miss-diagnosis or over-diagnosis.

[BrokenPromise]

@BuddhaSo to clarify, you're interested in discussing genuine mental illnesses? I am not sure how that alone can be considered a question. But I think(?) I have a better grasp on the second part of the topic that you wish to discuss, which is how something like rolplaying would affect someone with a mental disorder.

I think this is a notable concern as almost anyone with a mental disorder seems to have something they obsess over. Obsessions are dangerous, but I'm not sure what the harm in escapism is. It could hinder their ability to heal, even reduce their effectiveness as a member of society. But I'd rather them be saving a make believe kingdom than subscribing to someone's blog on Facebook or even 4 Chan. At least on RPG the escapism is contained to a written story that everyone else more or less knows is a farce. The OOC constantly reminds you of this. But when you use facebook, dressing up, or going to expensive parties that you really can't afford as a form of escapism, I think they're doing far more damage to themselves. They are escaping in plain sight, with real people.

I think there are worse things a mentally ill person could do with their free time.

[Dion]

@BrokenPromise Hmm, well, yes, I am interested in seeing why there are so many (I mean, your argument is that there aren't many. But I think that despite a lot of screamy attention grabbing 'ill' people on RPG, there are a lot more that are genuinely ill that you do not hear about) on RPG, that have a genuine illness.

I suppose you make a fair point but my prime concern, again, is that it is very largely dependent on the person, and also the manner in which they escape. Some might cope well with roleplay, others might not?