Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[PrinceAlexus]

Yes, the man did the exact thing he said he would do and that of which several Presidents of the United States before him kept postponing because the decision was politically inconvenient. This endeavor seats itself back in the year 1995, if my memory serves, but consider me impressed all the same by the boldness and willingness to uphold something he promised he would do, particularly it how needlessly touch this is. All in all, very good news, @PrinceAlexus.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

Not needlessly touchy. It's a very very sensitive issue among two very political separate peoples. Add the weight of the Arab world, others, it's basically one issue that's been used as a tool to trick, distract and decoy for decades.

[The Harbinger of Ferocity]

Yes, so what you just described as needlessly touchy, @PrinceAlexus. This was a long time coming and a gesture the United States could no longer, and should no longer, ignore just to appease people and keep up the status quo. There is no better time I can think of than the present.

[PrinceAlexus]

Yes, so what you just described as needlessly touchy, @PrinceAlexus. This was a long time coming and a gesture the United States could no longer, and should no longer, ignore just to appease people and keep up the status quo. There is no better time I can think of than the present.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

True. Things in middle east are abit more calm.
If there is such a thing out there.

It would very unwise previously when things where more tense and open conflicts.

He did live up to the promise on the issue however I would think thr middle east issue on peace process is kinda going to be extremely tricky to balence.

[Penny]

most atheists would hopefully point out that's not a good way to die.

@SleepingSilence

We are all going to be dead soon anyway, what is the rush? That being said if you are terminally ill and are looking at a slow painful death I dont think its wrong for you to consider your options.

[SleepingSilence]

We are all going to be dead soon anyway, what is the rush? That being said if you are terminally ill and are looking at a slow painful death, I don't think its wrong for you to consider your options.

@Penny

That's getting into the discussion of assisted suicide right?

People that attempt suicide often fail, which only brings them more trauma that they undergo...so it's not even really often the final ending for most those attempt it.

According to the American Association of Suicidology (based on a SAMHSA study)1, there are 25 attempts at suicide for every one success. In young people (aged 15 - 24), the odds are between 100 and 200 to 1 against. The elderly seem a lot more successful at 4:1.

[POOHEAD189]

Actually most religions do not revolve around the idea of doing good deeds and working to get to Salvation. Christianity, for example, the only thing that you need to do is accept Jesus Christ in your heart. That's not a whole lot of work.

@SleepingSilence

That is incorrect.

In fact it is incorrect to say that most Americans are Christian, simply because they claim it. Donald Trump for instance is not really a Christian, by the way he acts. That'd be like calling Stalin a Capitalist simply because he claims it.

Jesus himself says that the road to paradise is narrow and most people won't make it, because of such a lax view of the faith. To be honest, people who claim to be faithful yet don't follow the doctrine are worse off than athiests, for they are pharisees and hypocrites, something Jesus disliked over all others. Jesus himself said that to live the life of a Christian will be very difficult.

To put it simply, if you're a Christian, you need to follow the teachings of Jesus in order to be one. Yes do need to accept Jesus into your heart. However depending on your definition, that is either not all you need to do, or that's an extremely difficult thing to accept. You need to try your best to not judge others, for instance. Do not covet. You need to be willing to sell all other aspects of your life for the faith if need be. You are to value your faith and God above all of your possessions and relationships on earth, and you are to love your neighbor as yourself. Of course, since we are human, all of that is pretty much impossible. But to attempt to live in the faith, as much as you can, is something God wishes.

To say what you said, that it is an easy thing, is honestly insulting to people who truly attempt to live a life like that (me), or someone who made a career out of his faith like my father, who regularly translates Greek and Hebrew texts and spent 12 years of school in Theology.

Christianity is a faith as worthy of respect as Islam or Judaism. Just because a bunch of assholes use the names of God and Jesus while they do shit doesn't make it less so.

[SleepingSilence]

That is incorrect.

In fact it is incorrect to say that most Americans are Christian, simply because they claim it. Donald Trump for instance is not really a Christian, by the way he acts. That'd be like calling Stalin a Capitalist simply because he claims it.

Jesus himself says that the road to paradise is narrow and most people won't make it, because of such a lax view of the faith. To be honest, people who claim to be faithful yet don't follow the doctrine are worse off than athiests, for they are pharisees and hypocrites, something Jesus disliked over all others. Jesus himself said that to live the life of a Christian will be very difficult.

To put it simply, if you're a Christian, you need to follow the teachings of Jesus in order to be one. Yes do need to accept Jesus into your heart. However depending on your definition, that is either not all you need to do, or that's an extremely difficult thing to accept. You need to try your best to not judge others, for instance. Do not covet. You need to be willing to sell all other aspects of your life for the faith if need be. You are to value your faith and God above all of your possessions and relationships on earth, and you are to love your neighbor as yourself. Of course, since we are human, all of that is pretty much impossible. But to attempt to live in the faith, as much as you can, is something God wishes.

To say what you said, that it is an easy thing, is honestly insulting to people who truly attempt to live a life like that (me), or someone who made a career out of his faith like my father, who regularly translates Greek and Hebrew texts and spent 12 years of school in Theology.

Christianity is a faith as worthy of respect as Islam or Judaism. Just because a bunch of assholes use the names of God and Jesus while they do shit doesn't make it less so.

@POOHEAD189

I'm not exactly sure where I should start with that one. I agree that those that only claim to be part of the faith exist and many don't practice what they preach. But the idea of the narrow path, is because many lose faith or never have it to begin with. Though I don't know what else you'd need to do, unless you're describing a different subsection that's different from non-denominational. I suppose maybe it's crass to say that faith is an easy path, when many have personal struggles with it. So I'll apologize that my particular phrasing wasn't best, but I only meant that most religions don't require the type of work that was previously implied.

I'm also not entirely sure that I'd agree that all religions deserve the same treatment or respect for that matter. Because there's a difference in the teachings of religions, disregarding extremists. What's actively taught and the prophets/gods and their actions of a particular religion, is important to take note of the differences.

[POOHEAD189]

@SleepingSilence No worries. I guess I wrote the post as if I was #triggered at you, but it was more of a correction, albeit a distinction that I believe should be acknowledged.

[Penny]

Christianity is a faith as worthy of respect as Islam or Judaism.

@POOHEAD189

Exactly as worthy.

That's getting into the discussion of assisted suicide right?

@SleepingSilence

Unfortunately assisted suicide is illegal in the majority of places. This dosen't stop a certain amount of what we might term self-empowerment however.

The elderly seem a lot more successful at 4:1.

@SleepingSilence

I haven't read the statistics but my impression is that older people are more likely to go for guns or the types of drugs they need to get the job done.

Younger people are more likely to go for hanging or cutting which are super unreliable, or try to OD on something that really isn't potent enough to do the job. I also assume that the 'cry for help' suicide is more likely among the young.

[SleepingSilence]

@POOHEAD189 Well I certainly might have come across as diminishing the benefits or reality of faith, and I'm certainly not.

@Penny Respectfully disagree. :P

And I'd say, thankfully...because people already think doctors play god...I can't imagine how more accurate that would get, if they could legally take someone's life...

While true, some survive even bullets to the head...it's low, but that chance makes the idea of trying so, especially when you're younger. It's an incredibly selfish decision.

(Self inflicted gun head wounds.)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5175460

For patients who survive SIGSWs to the head, the injuries sustained are often devastating and require multiple complex procedures performed by a diverse team of specialists.

Data measuring the average costs and reimbursements of these cases suggest that UIHC approximately “breaks even” or makes a small profit in the treatment of these patients. This implies that while these cases place a large burden on society—one source estimates an annual cost of $11 billion in lost productivity alone in the United States.

(U.S Study. To gunshot to head.)

communications.yale.edu/sites/default…

A new study, a first of its kind, shows that civilians who
are shot in the head or have other penetrating brain injuries, have a 42 percent chance
of surviving. The senior author of the study, Kevin Sheth, is an Associate Professor of Neurology and
Neurosurgery at Yale. The study, published in Journal Neurology, includes 400 patients
at two major trauma centers.

[Polymorpheus]

.

[mdk]

@mdk so the body responsible for maintaining these laws is the same body that can remove these laws? That's what I mean. Yeah it's sacred - so is water if a priest waves his hand over it. It only has the meaning and weight you attach to it. I don't really attach meaning and weight to rights because they can be taken or plunged into a non-right at any given moment.

@Odin

On the contrary. The body which can infringe upon these laws (Congress) is totally distinct from the body responsible for protecting them (SCOTUS). That said, the current/recent liberal bent in the US is judicial activism -- legislation from the bench -- which puts us squarely into that territory where the same (unelected, unaccountable, appointed-for-life) body both creates and strikes down federal policy, playing both sides of the 'rights' game.

Anyway. This thing you're talking about is precisely why the U.S. Constitution forbids the government from taking away the right to bear arms. The system is set up to (a) prevent the government from infringing on your rights, and also (b) to offer citizens recourse (by votes, mostly, but preserving the ultimate recourse of force) to safeguard their own rights.

....the other tangent I wanted to go on, but thought better of.... In anarchy, you have all of the rights, and so does everybody else, and that kinda sucks. Every law is a restriction of rights. Frequently that's for the best, but that's what a social contract is, a surrender of rights in exchange for protection. Ergo, a "good law" is one that offers the most protection for the lowest cost in freedom, and a bad law is one that is overly restrictive without offering corresponding value in protections. Judging things on that basis, a whole lot of liberal crap is pretty terrible policy.

[mdk]

<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>
That is incorrect.

In fact it is incorrect to say that most Americans are Christian, simply because they claim it. Donald Trump for instance is not really a Christian, by the way he acts. That'd be like calling Stalin a Capitalist simply because he claims it.

Jesus himself says that the road to paradise is narrow and most people won't make it, because of such a lax view of the faith. To be honest, people who claim to be faithful yet don't follow the doctrine are worse off than athiests, for they are pharisees and hypocrites, something Jesus disliked over all others. Jesus himself said that to live the life of a Christian will be very difficult.

To put it simply, if you're a Christian, you need to follow the teachings of Jesus in order to be one. Yes do need to accept Jesus into your heart. However depending on your definition, that is either not all you need to do, or that's an extremely difficult thing to accept. You need to try your best to not judge others, for instance. Do not covet. You need to be willing to sell all other aspects of your life for the faith if need be. You are to value your faith and God above all of your possessions and relationships on earth, and you are to love your neighbor as yourself. Of course, since we are human, all of that is pretty much impossible. But to attempt to live in the faith, as much as you can, is something God wishes.

To say what you said, that it is an easy thing, is honestly insulting to people who truly attempt to live a life like that (me), or someone who made a career out of his faith like my father, who regularly translates Greek and Hebrew texts and spent 12 years of school in Theology.

Christianity is a faith as worthy of respect as Islam or Judaism. Just because a bunch of assholes use the names of God and Jesus while they do shit doesn't make it less so.

@POOHEAD189

My understanding (it's been a while) is slightly (but significantly) different, and you could chalk that up to theological differences.... But the way I understand it is, belief is sufficient on its own (Romans 10:9), and also, if you DO believe, you'll follow through (Luke 6:43-45). It's not so much "You have to do Christian-y things" (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- that's the symptom, not the salvation. It's not something you buy with good behavior, because you can't afford it. It's a gift you're given and grateful for and, if that's true, you're not wasting it on trivial bullshit.

[mdk]

<Snipped quote by The Harbinger of Ferocity>

True. Things in middle east are abit more calm.
If there is such a thing out there.

It would very unwise previously when things where more tense and open conflicts.

He did live up to the promise on the issue however I would think thr middle east issue on peace process is kinda going to be extremely tricky to balence.

@PrinceAlexus

I mean yes but, at the same time, the Palestinian authority responded to the news with barely-veiled threats of terrorism (BBC quoted some more leaders) so... like.... fuck those guys though right? If this was the reaction, we were fooling ourselves to think negotiations were even remotely possible.

But hey. Prove me wrong, Middle East, and we'll both enjoy peace while I eat some crow.

TL:DR good move, I fully support it.

[POOHEAD189]

Christian Theology

My understanding (it's been a while) is slightly (but significantly) different, and you could chalk that up to theological differences.... But the way I understand it is, belief is sufficient on its own (Romans 10:9), and also, if you DO believe, you'll follow through (Luke 6:43-45). It's not so much "You have to do Christian-y things" (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- that's the symptom, not the salvation. It's not something you buy with good behavior, because you can't afford it. It's a gift you're given and grateful for and, if that's true, you're not wasting it on trivial bullshit.

@mdk

You're not entirely wrong. I never said you need to earn your way to heaven. That's why I clarified with phrases such as 'Of course, since we are human, all of that is pretty much impossible. But to attempt to live in the faith, as much as you can, is something God wishes.' True belief merits action. One who does believe will acts accordingly.

John 14'15: If you love me, obey my commandments.

John 15'14 (lol): You are my friends if you obey me.

and the most important one

Luke 13'24: The door to heaven is narrow. Work hard to get in, because many will try to enter. But when the head of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. Then you will be standing outside knocking and pleading 'Lord, open the door for us!' But he will reply 'I do not know you.' You will say 'but we ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' And he will reply 'I tell you, I don't know you. Go away, all you who do evil.'

Now, theologically, it is true to say that no amount of good works can 'buy' someone into heaven. Because Heaven is a perfect paradise and no man is perfect, therefore no one is ever worthy. However, to not attempt to live a live of giving and kindness is also blasphemous. To put it simply:

If you love Jesus, you'll care about following him. If you care about following him, you'll do christ-like things. If you do christ-like things, you'd be a follower. Someone cannot say 'I love God and am a believer' and then regularly cheat on his wife, for instance.

Also always take Romans with a grain of salt. Not to say it is false, per say. However, Paul is not Jesus. Romans and the like is secondary compared to books like Luke.

---

Norse Paganism

My guess is that it was created when humans were created, so that probably means the creation of the universe. Cows licks salt block and creates the first aesir, who were trapped in the block. Beyond that? Your guess is as good as mine.

@Odin

Didn't Audumbla the Cow lick the first Aesir out of ice and not salt? I don't recall reading a translation that claimed it was salt, or salt water.

[Polymorpheus]

.

[POOHEAD189]

I wish I found this when we were talking about how tall dudes are.

[Penny]

@Penny Respectfully disagree. :P

@SleepingSilence

Disagree about what? That assisted suicide should be legal?

While true, some survive even bullets to the head...it's low, but that chance makes the idea of trying so, especially when you're younger. It's an incredibly selfish decision.

(Self inflicted gun head wounds.)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5175460

For patients who survive SIGSWs to the head, the injuries sustained are often devastating and require multiple complex procedures performed by a diverse team of specialists.

Data measuring the average costs and reimbursements of these cases suggest that UIHC approximately “breaks even” or makes a small profit in the treatment of these patients. This implies that while these cases place a large burden on society—one source estimates an annual cost of $11 billion in lost productivity alone in the United States.

@SleepingSilence

Lost productivity! The horror. If attempted suicide is unprofitable people should definitely rethink it.

communications.yale.edu/sites/default…

A new study, a first of its kind, shows that civilians who
are shot in the head or have other penetrating brain injuries, have a 42 percent chance
of surviving. The senior author of the study, Kevin Sheth, is an Associate Professor of Neurology and
Neurosurgery at Yale. The study, published in Journal Neurology, includes 400 patients
at two major trauma centers.

@SleepingSilence

I think I found the study this is referencing and the methodology is measuring people that are admitted to trauma centers. I think it excludes people who are pronounced dead at the scene. So if you are alive when you get there, you have a 42 percent chance.

A study on suicide lethality from the American Journal of Public Health (RS Spicer, TR Miller - Suicide acts in 8 states: incidence and case fatality rates by demographics and method. - American Journal of Public Health, 2000) rates lethality as follows:

Drug/poison ingestion 1.5
Poison by gas 41.5
Suffocation/hanging 61.4
Drowning/submersion 65.9
Firearm 82.5
Cut/pierce 1.2
Jump 34.5
Other 8.0

Making firearms the clear winner. Im actually a little surprised at just how few death are accounted for by OD and Cutting although its possible that suicide by OD is poorly captured in their data.

I'm not arguing that we should be offering assisted suicide in outpatient clinics for anyone who wanders by, but I do think that is is a sensible option to have on the table. Terminal patients often choose to die simply by stopping treatment even though we could keep them alive for months or years longer. Some simply opt to kill themselves and make an end to it one way or another. Id just as soon have it happen in a humane dignified way, rather than buying a shotgun and eating a shell.

[Penny]

Christian Theology

<Snipped quote by mdk>
You're not entirely wrong. I never said you need to earn your way to heaven. That's why I clarified with phrases such as 'Of course, since we are human, all of that is pretty much impossible. But to attempt to live in the faith, as much as you can, is something God wishes.' True belief merits action. One who does believe will acts accordingly.

<Snipped quote>
<Snipped quote>
and the most important one

<Snipped quote>

Now, theologically, it is true to say that no amount of good works can 'buy' someone into heaven. Because Heaven is a perfect paradise and no man is perfect, therefore no one is ever worthy. However, to not attempt to live a live of giving and kindness is also blasphemous. To put it simply:

If you love Jesus, you'll care about following him. If you care about following him, you'll do christ-like things. If you do christ-like things, you'd be a follower. Someone cannot say 'I love God and am a believer' and then regularly cheat on his wife, for instance.

Also always take Romans with a grain of salt. Not to say it is false, per say. However, Paul is not Jesus. Romans and the like is secondary compared to books like Luke.

---

Norse Paganism

<Snipped quote by Odin>

Didn't Audumbla the Cow lick the first Aesir out of ice and not salt? I don't recall reading a translation that claimed it was salt, or salt water.

@POOHEAD189

Boys boys, both of your imaginary friends are pretty.

John 15'14 (lol): You are my friends if you obey me.

@POOHEAD189

If someone said that to you in real life you would back the hell away without making eye contact.

[mdk]

Now, theologically, it is true to say that no amount of good works can 'buy' someone into heaven. Because Heaven is a perfect paradise and no man is perfect, therefore no one is ever worthy. However, to not attempt to live a live of giving and kindness is also blasphemous.

@POOHEAD189

I mean, it's heretical. Blasphemy is a pretty specific thing and it's bad (in some teachings, unforgivable -- seems like a stretch, but that's the sort of gravity the word implies). Heretical just means it's outside the teachings of Christ, which is a much broader word. God's got all kinds of love for heretics (as he must, because at some point all of us were/are heretics and we all do heretical things all the time). The parable of the prodigal son is the best summary of how that all plays out.

Also always take Romans with a grain of salt. Not to say it is false, per say. However, Paul is not Jesus. Romans and the like is secondary compared to books like Luke.

eh. And also, that's not something Paul dreamed up. And also again -- Luke wasn't an apostle, so he and Paul are pretty much on a level.

END OF THE DAY -- look we're saying the same thing. Only reason I jumped in with an argument was like.... it's not a "have to" situation, if you actually believe that Jesus is who he said he was, then that belief ought (naturally) to cause in that person a desire to do good things. If it doesn't, then it wasn't faith in the first place.