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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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@SleepingSilence

I have no spiritual belief.

John Calvin and I would have gotten along like a house on fire. Probably a house that I was in that he lit on fire.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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@Penny But you don't believe you have the power to change your decisions? Most atheists, agnostics and even a lot of religions believe in free will...some may not call it that. So that's why I wondered what your mindset is. Not political, but you've caught my interest (or curiosity.)

Like, are you nihilistic or something?
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by POOHEAD189
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@SleepingSilenceThere's many scientific theories out there on whether or not we do or do not have free will. Some theorize that the universe expands and contracts in the same exact way, therefore you and I could have been born and dead a thousand times over without us ever knowing it. (I.E. meaning the big bang has happened multiple times, and we are none the wiser) Because since the universe would, theoretically expand in the same way as it always has everytime, and contract in the same way, all things in every expansion have been the exact same. It's just different theories. Doesn't have anything to do with their faith (sorry I used an elaborate example).
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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Oh, and since my current debate is going nowhere. How about something possibly more interesting and hopefully less personal, political/personal opinion. (try to stick to non-personal conjecture.)

2020. (assuming we don't crash into the sun.) What happens in the next election? Who do you WANT to run, and who do you think will actually try to run? Would you actually vote for the same person you voted for again, if you did? Will you not vote again and complain that elections are rigged and start a petition to succeed if you're side doesn't win? Do you think if Trump does well (to the people that voted for him.) He'll get re-elected again? Would you want the third two term president in a row even if he was? How about if he is passable/does poorly? Is there an actual difference? Will third parties ever have a damned chance? Give me your thoughts. Maybe it will lead to better discussion. *fingers halfheartedly crossed* :3
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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@SleepingSilence

You know it is kind of hard to articulate exactly.

I do believe that life is ultimately meaningless in any grander scheme and I'm just trying to do my best to make it nice for myself and for others. I think things can be moral in that framework.

Of course if I don't have free will then I cant have chosen to think that in any meaningful way, its just a happy lie my brain perpetuates :P

Does that make me a Nihilist?
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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*snip*


actually hang on

Nature is incredible, it is possible that there is some sort of weird property we have never encountered before which would provide a mechanism for free will. It is not impossible, it just seems unlikely given our current understanding.


Literally every advancement in the history of science consisted of discovering weird properties we have never encountered before. Abandoning the very concept of self-determination on the basis of 'current understanding' is therefore insane (especially given its proven capacity to improve your life). Not, like, in a derogatory way -- that's just nuts though. Anyway back to the bigger picture:

snip


I keep starting and stopping. Here's my blunt assessment -- the concept is (1) unsupportable, (2) unscientific, (3) useless, (4) self-defeating, (5) insincerely held, (6) vapid, (7) ....you get the idea I don't care for it. Let's tick off the list so far and see if I feel compelled to continue.

1 (and a bit of 2)

The theory is, "if I knew everything I could tell you what happens next." Well what happens next? "I don't know everything. But if I did, I could." Well, find out more, then tell me what happens next. "I tried -- but I couldn't learn everything. But if I could...." Unsupportable. You've attached it to biology for some reason, instead of galactic gravitational wave patterns -- I'm not sure why you picked the one versus the other, but I'm entirely certain it wouldn't make a lick of difference no matter what you picked as the determinant characteristic.

2

It's unscientific because nowhere in the theory have we arrived at anything we could ever conceivably test or observe, short of constructing a sympathetic control omniverse against which to compare our findings here. Your assessment of 'biochemistry' is akin to a god, only instead of holy texts you're basing it on stoner psych. Perhaps that's preferable -- your call. But it damned sure ain't scientific, not in the least.

3.

In what ways (if any) is the distinction between "free will" and "the illusion of free will" useful? There is no pragmatic value. I mean unless you count the positive fee-fees when you can say "oh bless his heart, it wasn't his fault his ancestor had a mutated 912d chromosome" (I do not know how to fake a chromosome). But then we're right back to "this is a religion, based on nothing."

4.

When you "know everything, every atom, every quark," etc. doesn't the same logic hold that those are only illusions of atoms and quarks, and you still know nothing john snow? And where is it written that the governing laws of the hyperverse are consistent and homeostatic anyway -- maybe we're not in a lake, but in a toilet bowl circling the drain, and the governing laws are inherently temporary. Maybe the toilet-bowl metaphor is just a toilet-bowl-ILLUSION metaphor illusion of illusory purposes. The point of the theory is not that someday all this hypothetical bullshit will amount to a complete understanding of 'fate' -- the point is, no matter what, it will never matter and nobody will ever know anything ever. But you can't be sure, because.... anyway.

5.

But you could be wrong, so hedge your bets -- aka, it's a scam, bail immediately.

6.

sorta already covered the vapidity of it all in my various other responses. In what way is any of this remotely relevant to anything? "If I had ten billion dollars I'd eat a giraffe tomorrow." Equivalent statement. Why in the living fuck would anybody assign a single iota of significance to that?
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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@POOHEAD189 No, I completely understand some people use "free will" or "determinism" in different terms. And "belief" may be not the best word to use of people who lack that belief, in anything. (though that can be debated until the cows come home.) I understand faith arguments aren't particularly helpful to those that don't believe in them.

I guess I'm interested to read those links to such things, if you have them. I'd prefer videos because I'm a lazy bastard and prefer that medium. XP
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by POOHEAD189
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@SleepingSilence XD. No worries. Also don't feel so alone. I'm a Christian, myself.

Also I'm an Independent, politically. And by that, I don't mean I vote for the Independent party. They've given Independents a bad name, recently. I mean I vote without party affiliation. I wasn't overly fond of Hillary Clinton becoming president, but I will happily say I voted for her because I was/am anti-Trump. I don't hate the guy, but he's a clear fool. His last 120+ days have proven it all over the board. Though I'm starting to think I'd rather him than Mitch McConnell handle our healthcare.

Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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Oh, and since my current debate is going nowhere. How about something possibly more interesting and hopefully less personal, political/personal opinion. (try to stick to non-personal conjecture.)

2020. (assuming we don't crash into the sun.) What happens in the next election? Who do you WANT to run, and who do you think will actually try to run? Would you actually vote for the same person you voted for again, if you did? Will you not vote again and complain that elections are rigged and start a petition to succeed if you're side doesn't win? Do you think if Trump does well (to the people that voted for him.) He'll get re-elected again? Would you want the third two term president in a row even if he was? How about if he is passable/does poorly? Is there an actual difference? Will third parties ever have a damned chance? Give me your thoughts. Maybe it will lead to better discussion. *fingers halfheartedly crossed* :3


A third party won in 2016, and we're kicking out the establishment GOP bit by bit. Hostile takeover, under budget and ahead of schedule. Trump will win re-election unless the Democrats abandon... well that's the wrong word. They need to stand for something. The loose coalition of pseudo-oppressed propagandized minority groups is tearing apart at the seams, and the mobilization tactics of yesteryear are slipping. It's a worst-case scenario for Democrats -- the future is actually getting brighter, and they have nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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@Penny I dunno. Life and it's creation and meaning is even more complicated than politics. :P

I don't think so though. Moral nihilism (also known as ethical nihilism) is the meta-ethical view that nothing is intrinsically moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Though there's like a hundred versions of them...so that's a thing I learned.

Is Hedonism an ideology? I'm too tired to remember. >.> Though mentioning you want to make it good for others, I'm pretty sure goes against that and all forms of nihilism. I'm very interested in learning about ideologies and religions. But I'll admit I lack knowledge of them as a whole.

(I'm immediately thinking of Showbread "no sir nihilism is not practical", I think I need sleep. -.-)

Goodnight, everyone. Look forward to ranting at each other in the future. <3
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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@mdk

So because something is hard to predict because of human limitations it is unable to be predicted?

Even if I accept your post at face value which I do not. It still doesn't suggest a reason to believe in free will, other than I would really like it to be true.

I feel like the lack of magic universe altering extra biological decision making powers ought to be the ground state.

I want to reiterate that this isn't a belief in which I take comfort, quite the opposite in fact.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by POOHEAD189
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All @Penny is saying is that it's a scientifically conceivable theory that has not been disproved, and many scientists are considering it as making sense. She even conceding since we don't know all of what nature has in store for us, that it might be disproved. I'm not certain if we've gained more understanding in this field since last I checked, but people use Quantum Physics, which do/did act outside the laws of what we perceive as logical, to dismiss the 'no free will' theory. But Idk now.
@mdk

Also goodnight! @SleepingSilence
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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@Penny I dunno. Life and it's creation and meaning is even more complicated than politics. :P

I don't think so though. Moral nihilism (also known as ethical nihilism) is the meta-ethical view that nothing is intrinsically moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Though there's like a hundred versions of them...so that's a thing I learned.


If all of morals are human constructs than nothing is inherently right or wrong. For that to be true there would need to be some sort of universal yardstick for morals, which I dont believe in. I think things are morally right and morally wrong within the moral framework in which I choose to live my life.

Is Hedonism an ideology?


I don't know but I do find that pleasure of all kinds makes life more bearable for me personally.

Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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@POOHEAD189 Woot. :3

Understandable. I think every party hasn't done the best job representing themselves. And politics aside, I can appreciate someone having enthusiasm. From what I consider a nightmarish election cycle. (not because of the candidates) but just everything. But I digress. >.<

And yeah the third party was pretty embarrassing that particular year. At least the ones that got coverage...

But come on now, Trump is a genius and doesn't make mistakes.



;P
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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I want to reiterate that this isn't a belief in which I take comfort, quite the opposite in fact.


So why believe it? It's irrational, vapid, self-defeating, etc. and apparently also distressing. Is it enriching your life somehow? Just call bullshit and move on.

I feel like the lack of magic universe altering extra biological decision making powers ought to be the ground state.


Ah. That's it. This irrational vapid self-defeating distress is your access card to the 'it's okay to not believe in fairy godmothers' club. Well you don't need it. You're perfectly capable of making up your own mind.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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All @Penny is saying is that it's a scientifically conceivable theory that has not been disproved, and many scientists are considering it as making sense. She even conceding since we don't know all of what nature has in store for us, that it might be disproved. I'm not certain if we've gained more understanding in this field since last I checked, but people use Quantum Physics, which do/did act outside the laws of what we perceive as logical, to dismiss the 'no free will' theory. But Idk now.
@mdk


As it cannot be tested, it is not 'scientifically conceivable.' Attaching 'science' to the idea, in any way, is disingenuous. There is no shred of science to it. It will never be disproved and that's the problem -- it's incapable of consideration, and therefore irrelevant.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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<Snipped quote by Penny>

So why believe it? It's irrational, vapid, self-defeating, etc. and apparently also distressing. Is it enriching your life somehow? Just call bullshit and move on.


I dont believe things because they are personally pleasant to me. That is intellectual cowardice.

You're perfectly capable of making up your own mind.


If only.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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I dont believe things because they are personally pleasant to me. That is intellectual cowardice.


Well you're certainly not believing in things based on intellectual merit.

If only.


Present evidence to the contrary.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
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@Dinh AaronMk You're argument is a problem. If it's inescapable, that some people work for pennies. And yeah it sucks and it's out there. But that has nothing to do with free market capitalism, nor the cause of it and no one here is to blame for it...and again not all work even needs materials from others...




... the post.

Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Although I already covered this in enough detail to make the point. Let me restate.

Imagine you don't take in enough calcium. As a result you begin to develop hypocalcemia. The lowered levels of blood calcium trigger the release of Parathyroid hormone which in turn stimulates osteoclasts which start breaking down bone and inhibits osteoblasts which are responsible for the sequestration of calcium in bone tissue. As a result calcium goes up, PTH secretion goes down and the normal level of blood calcium is restored.

This is a very basic pathway in the endocrine system. A lot gets done and no decision is made by you as to how it happens. It works to promote homeostasis of blood calcium. The job of this system and most others in the body to one degree or another is to promote a wider homeostasis where everything is kept within safe bounds to keep the organism alive. We find these sorts of pathways all through the body in one form or another, all the way up to the firing of neurons and to the actions of neural synapses which we have so far been able to understand.

There is a lot still to uncover as any neuroscientist will tell you but let me ask you. Is it more likely that there is an entirely new class of system hidden some where inside your brain which exercises some sort of discrete free will in a manner we cannot yet comprehend? Or that the building blocks of the brain are exactly the same sort of homeostatic systems that we see everywhere else not only in humans but in all of DNA based life? Systems that react to a predictable stimuli in a predictable way to produce a predictable result.

If the second is the case then there really isn't any need to posit the existence of free will in order to explain the behavior. In fact, by doing so we are engaging in a sort of biological appologetics. Of course free will exists, we have just got to find the mechanism for it buried somewhere in the dark spaces we don't yet understand! And hey maybe we will, there will be some sort of Eienstien or Newton like moment in which our understanding is completely overturned and everything turns out the way we all hope. But that is just a hope and I for one am not so certain that the answer isn't more basic and less illuminating than we might wish.



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