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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Even the most well educated people can hold ignorant regressive views. The argument for racism is an emotional one rather than an intellectual one. People that are emotionally invested in a position or outcome will frequently subvert their own intellect.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Andreyich
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Even the most well educated people can hold ignorant regressive views. The argument for racism is an emotional one rather than an intellectual one. People that are emotionally invested in a position or outcome will frequently subvert their own intellect.

It's not emotionally driven though, and we've went over this. The other side, or "anti-racists" is actually more driven since it relies on the "muh exceptions" argument and tries to get me to look at pictures of little children to feel bad for them.

Luckily for me I have no soul.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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I understand that you think that but by your own admission your racism derives from your own emotional attachment to your personal racial identity. You want to protect green eyed people who's biological ancestors took part in some arbitrary historical events. I get that creating an in group and an other is a fairly typical human response, but it is an emotionally based one.

None of us have souls. Biochemistry is destiny.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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You didn't answer my question. She pays taxes, right? Does this not mean, that in some small way, she in complicit in supporting the regimes of country's that are personally invested in invading poor countries for their oil? I think, being in a country that isn't being violently mined for oil might have something to do with the fact that she can make jewelry, but what do I know.


This just in from communism: paying your taxes is oppression, but not the government oppressing you, you're the one doing the oppressing.

Dafuq. Did. I. Just. Read?
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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Biochemistry is destiny.


It isn't.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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It isn't.


Some days I wish I could believe that.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Andreyich
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I understand that you think that

That's a pretty obnoxious thing to say because the reverse is true too.

but by your own admission your racism derives from your own emotional attachment to your personal racial identity.

No, the latter is a result of the former.

You want to protect green eyed people who's biological ancestors took part in some arbitrary historical events.

That's bait so I'm not going for it.

I get that creating an in group and an other is a fairly typical human response, but it is an emotionally based one.

No it's not, it is first and foremost pragmatic, i.e. making sure I don't get beaten in my own street.

Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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So your racism stems from a fear of being beaten on the street?
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Andreyich
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So your racism stems from a fear of being beaten on the street?

In part.

and once more, racism is prejudice towards, not hate of a race
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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<Snipped quote by mdk>

Some days I wish I could believe that.


Insofar as destiny can be said to exist, it has -- well not NOTHING to do, but very LITTLE to do with your 'biochemistry.' And if it did, that would be pretty incredibly racist, when you think about it. Is urban crime because of biochemistry or economics? Because we can totally change economics. Is middle eastern terror springing from the Arab biochemistry, or from geopolitics? Because we can do something about the latter.

If it's all written in the DNA and it's destiny and nothing will ever change any of it, well, shit, why not just kill them all, it would be objectively better. Or maybe that's a silly notion.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Andreyich
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<Snipped quote by Penny>

Insofar as destiny can be said to exist, it has -- well not NOTHING to do, but very LITTLE to do with your 'biochemistry.' And if it did, that would be pretty incredibly racist, when you think about it. Is urban crime because of biochemistry or economics? Because we can totally change economics. Is middle eastern terror springing from the Arab biochemistry, or from geopolitics? Because we can do something about the latter.

If it's all written in the DNA and it's destiny and nothing will ever change any of it, well, shit, why not just kill them all, it would be objectively better. Or maybe that's a silly notion.

Or you know, just fuck off and let them be so that in ten or so years they don't come with a grudge to your country and start blowing your shit up and shooting you. Westerners don't realize that they are, at least in part responsible for the shit that's going on in MENA.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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<Snipped quote by mdk>
Or you know, just fuck off and let them be so that in ten or so years they don't come with a grudge to your country and start blowing your shit up and shooting you. Westerners don't realize that they are, at least in part responsible for the shit that's going on in MENA.


We fucked off ten or so years ago and it hasn't exactly gotten better. It wasn't exactly better twenty years ago, or thirty, or a hundred, or a thousand. Let's be fair.

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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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@Dynamo Frokane Who are we talking about here exactly?

And honestly, if it's who I think. No, not really...people who actively engage in other cultures and learn about them, will not be "racist" in the way people think about that word. Because it would be obvious no race is completely superior/inferior, nor should people be treated different solely on that concept even if it was true. Smart people that don't have common sense, I wouldn't really consider them particularly intellectual. No matter how many degrees they had. I don't care if stupid is less accurate than broken/fucked in the head. But I will say that person is culturally ignorant. I've never heard an intelligent argument for the pro's of racism. :/

Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by POOHEAD189
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<Snipped quote by Penny>
In part.

and once more, racism is prejudice towards, not hate of a race


I think hate is pretty prejudice.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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@Penny I suppose that's true, not choosing to use those words aside.

But purely emotional views aren't intelligent or remotely useful in most factual arguments. It's not even making a moral stance, it's just individual cases versus an entire population. :/

Anecdotal reasoning is a fallacy. You can "feel" anyway you want but that doesn't make you correct. Or even well thought out in you're thoughts. :/
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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@Andreyich Okay, when you say "fear of being beat in the street" does that mean you've never actually experienced any violence of any kind?

Where do you live? <.< If that's too personal, pm me or be vague. But I'd hope it's a bit more concrete than that.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
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@Dinh AaronMk Same point. Different words. I'll just say I was "memeing" to automatically be unable to be criticized. <.<

"Now, let's keep going: your sister in making jewelry must ultimately get materials that, like with the minerals of the Congo, are derived from the Earth" "Something something silver and gold, slave children."

Just...No. And for saying excuse me, you didn't actually read what I wrote did you? You wrote walls of text but you didn't read a single sentence. That said "finds stones" And that's literally all I need to say to that...

Again, capitalism doesn't hurt people and even if you use that awful "you didn't build that" argument. There's still plenty of examples of people being able to make money, for literally doing NOTHING that exploits, anyone or anywhere.

Basically this entire point, I think boils down, to trade being evil? Because people importing and exporting cheaper goods to make them cheap for the consumer being bad because someone is being underpaid somewhere else...

But those people also don't live in free market capitalism...and even if you take those jobs away, stop the evil people from making people mine, what do they have? >.>

But ignoring that. The whole "benefits in support of the worker we do not often get full value for our work."

I just posted a video that kind of points out everything you said, so I'll paraphrase that.

Effort doesn't need to be paid. Results do. Want to move my lawn? I'll give you 40 bucks. I won't pay you any differently with a push mower or a ride mower. I just want my lawn mowed. You can put effort in something that isn't actually worth anything of value. :/


Even if your sister is stringing rocks together with twine, unless she's made the twine herself from sheep or alpaca she raises at a farm she operates herself, feeding them hay and otherwise tending to their needs then your sister is still buying twine from somewhere most likely from a country that pays its employees pennies on the hour. Therefore even on a minimal level she is acting within a system encouraging this sort of behavior.

It's admittedly inescapable, in this respect we have blood or some Bengali worker's poor welfare on our hands. But knowing this is the first step to trying to do something about it. But claiming it doesn't matter because the fact that Bengali is employed and claiming they are not exploited because of it because they can just leave the sweatshop doesn't change the fact even if they did they'd be picking effective suicide and the notion that cheap labor is good labor basically leaves people like them as being machines and toys to exploitative industrial barons.

Now if she were locally sourcing her twine from some nearby workshop in the town or county where all the profits of the labor goes to the one old lady who spins the yarn herself, then the situation isn't as bad.

Holy shit, that's a bad analogy.

The typical Ford Motor Company Auto Mechanic salary is $52,528. Auto Mechanic salaries at Ford Motor Company can range from $45,653-$65,195.

Uh yeah, you bet your ass ford car mechanics can buy a car....


And they dump a whole half-years pay or their entire annual salary all at once to acquire that brand new vehicle. If we were to allocate pay on a basis of work done for the company as opposed to a flat hourly rate then employees working at Ford would have made in 2016 a minimum of 700,000$ in annual earnings. Instead all of or most of this goes to William Clay Ford for just existing.

Still, this rate is admittedly generous because it'll still need to go to operating costs. But it underlines the ultimate disparity between earnings at Ford and that they can get away with an employee taking a new Taurus from the line to drive around for a few years or more and there'll be no hit.

Clearly provably false, products over time are getting cheaper. Despite minimum wage increasing for years and years. (just slowly) It's easy to look that up yourself. and while I agree minimum wages shouldn't exist as they do now.
[rest of point here]


And as Seattle is showing us, hours are getting cut.

While food costs may be going down, hours worked is dropping to compensate for the higher wages. So while these people are getting paid more, they're working less; so the falling cost of bread represents more of a net-gain of zero. There is as well a general raise in the price of rent across many of the United State's larger cities, further relegating the prospect of the people making more money on higher fixed hourly rates in comparison to a general drop in certain costs to a greater net zero.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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@Dinh AaronMk You're argument is a problem. If it's inescapable, that some people work for pennies. And yeah it sucks and it's out there. But that has nothing to do with free market capitalism, nor the cause of it and no one here is to blame for it...and again not all work even needs materials from others...

You act like every product from america is from underpaid orphan children and that's not remotely true...So again I feel like you telling me somebody is making shoes for cheap labor, doesn't mean everyone buying them...and again, if they didn't have that cheap labor what's the alternative? :/

Also arguing people wanting to buy cheaper labor is bad, is not particularly useful either because how does that help? This kind of "we stole the native american's land" mentality that going into your economic mindset completely ignores how businesses work.

To paraphrase since I know you've talked about communism, because it's too late for me to properly continue.

Employees can be replaced. The business would exist with or without the individual laborers. It would not exist without those who created it. Those who take risk and invest time to create that which didn't previously exist have the right to determine how it operates and what is done with its productivity.

The workers are guaranteed their paychecks. The owner isn't. If the owner doesn't pay his workers he won't have workers for very long. Plus the government will come looking for the owner to make his workers whole. If the company goes bankrupt the workers lose nothing but their jobs. The owner will lose everything he put into the business and in some circumstances even more. That is the risk one takes to start/own the business. Only reason people do that is the potential reward to risk their own money. Otherwise no one will take the risk.

Cheap fords from only a few years back are $12000. Not exactly half of 50,000. But that's not the point.

Again, hours worked doesn't mean anything. Money should be paid by value, not effort...To paraphrase a video again "The Mona Lisa took 12 years to finish and it's insured for 800,000,000. If I spend 24 years to paint a woman's face that doesn't mean the thing will be worth double."

Correlation doesn't equal causation. Hours worked going down in what? That's very vague and not seemingly related points.

Also that Seattle study apparently is very flawed. "The research has significant flaws—most glaringly that its data excludes 40% of the Seattle workforce."

fortune.com/2017/06/27/seattle-minimu…

But this about raising the wage to 15, and I wasn't arguing that price hike was a good thing. So I don't know why you bring it up, I agree that doing that is bad? I guess...

But one city, means nothing in comparison to 50 years of cheaper and cheaper food AND still WAY cheaper than other countries, even with the cutting off hours for minimum wage jobs, which doesn't represent the job market as a whole.

Yes, forcefully raising the price and not doing it gradually will cost jobs...Doesn't really make any point against what I was saying...

As for rent...an overall 0.5% percent increase for rent...not even 1 percent.

economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/1…

Everywhere else is also increasing and is a shit ton more expensive. Just saying...(has literally nothing to do with capitalism.) There's a chart that's useful and goes over rent and everywhere else too.

cnbc.com/2015/04/12/et-cheaper-for-am…

"Food prices have fallen 1.6% nationwide since July 2015, according to a new USDA report." Over three times that percent, if true. Negligible? Not really...

Though arguments can be made it's not great for the farmers wallets. But I don't think you'd particularly care to make that argument. So I'll leave it at. Yes, the free market makes things cheaper and there's absolutely no reason to "feel responsible" for other parts of the world sucking because of their own decisions.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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*This is basically a mechanistic universe argument*

Firstly, as a matter of day to day living, I am compelled to act as though I have some sort of free will but that would be true even if, as I believe, that free will is an illusory construct. That being said:

<Snipped quote by Penny>

Insofar as destiny can be said to exist, it has -- well not NOTHING to do, but very LITTLE to do with your 'biochemistry.' And if it did, that would be pretty incredibly racist, when you think about it. Is urban crime because of biochemistry or economics? Because we can totally change economics. Is middle eastern terror springing from the Arab biochemistry, or from geopolitics? Because we can do something about the latter.

If it's all written in the DNA and it's destiny and nothing will ever change any of it, well, shit, why not just kill them all, it would be objectively better. Or maybe that's a silly notion.


If free will does not exist, you are forced at accept that all the terrible bullshit in the world is inevitable. Just because its unpleasant doesn't make it any more or less true. Is urban crime a result of biochemistry, or economics. Economics is a result of biochemistry so yeah and so on down the list of horrible atrocities throughout human and indeed prehuman history.

No neuroscientific property yet discovered, for which we have a well developed understanding, requires the existence of free will to be explicable. Nor is it, in my mind, likely that some emergent property will cut the Gordian knot. If we further accept that the mind is what the brain does, which seems difficult to refute, then it is incredibly difficult to rationalize the existence of free will. If I apply Occam's razor it seems reasonable to assume that free will is illusory as a working hypothesis.

It follows therefore that if I were able to know absolutely everything about a situation I would be able to predict how a given individual will respond to any given stimulus. I'm talking every neuron, every molecule in the endocrine system ect ect. To be clear, the level of knowledge I am talking about is immensely beyond anything of which we are currently capable, or might ever be capable of assembling, but in theory it is possible. If you accept that then you have to accept that all events from the beginning of the universe until now, and off into the future are equally completely (theoretically) predictable.

It doesn't feel like this to us on an everyday basis. I feel like I can choose to make this post or not, but that could easily be true even if I DONT have any real choice. The illusion of free will could be created as a byproduct of the decision making software our brains use. Equally likely it could be an evolved homeostatic system, due to the benefits the illusion of free will grants us. Even more likely, it is a synthesis of both.

If we lacked free will it would not necessarily be obvious to us. It is a comforting idea, one that all people including me enjoy, but there isn't really a requirement to posit its existence.

Consider the inverse. Some part of you which somehow exists beyond your biochemistry, is capable of making a genuine choice in a universe that we otherwise broadly acknowledge as mechanical. This is the argument for the soul, or that the mind exists (at least a little) independently of your biochemistry. This raises a HOST of questions without providing any real answers. Basically it posits a plurality without necessity. Nothing in understood neuroscience requires it, so it really begins to look like a case of special pleading for a comforting answer.

@mdk
Is this argument racist?
It is hard to imagine a less racist argument than this once as it essentially states that all matter in the universe is acted on by the same forces to behave in theoretically predictable ways. It is unifying, if a little depressing.

Problems With This Argument:
There are problems in quantum mechanics which admit of some fundamental uncertainty. You often see people throw the word quantum around as a result to explain all sorts of bs. I will freely admit that I'm not a particle physicist by training or inclination but it dosent seem to me that these properties scale particularly well. The idea that they might provide some sort of basis for contra-causal free will seems like a wildly optimistic interpretation. Perhaps its just the nature of the universe rolling the dice instead of us.

Why Dont We Just Kill Them All?
Firstly its weird how many people go here right away. Secondly you don't actually have that choice, even though it might seem like you have. Ultimately, and hopefully, you will conclude not to kill them all for all sorts of predictable reasons. Some people went the other way, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al. By the logic of this argument their actions were inevitable. That doesn't make them any less disgusting and horrifying.

Why Try to Live a Moral Life?
Well I could be wrong. Nature is incredible, it is possible that there is some sort of weird property we have never encountered before which would provide a mechanism for free will. It is not impossible, it just seems unlikely given our current understanding. If everything is arbitrary anyway why not try and bias it towards the good, even if you are ultimately deceiving yourself?

No one can live in a constant state of existential crisis, if you did its likely that the experience would ultimately result in your (tragically predictable) suicide. Even though this is a deeply held belief of mine, as soon as I finish discussing it, I will unconsciously start rationalizing it away, thinking about more pleasant things and ultimately continuing in the happy if not unquestioned delusion of my own free will. Which is exactly how a homeostatic system would be designed.

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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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@Penny "free will is an illusory construct."

Uh, okay now I'm just curious. What exactly is your theological/spiritual belief? :/
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