[OOC] Justice League Unlimited

[Archmage MC]

Welp, I got an artist working on Toon Girl finally. So I'll have something eventually. And uh, she kinda looks really really nice so far.

[Sir Lurksalot]

Posted.

If you're still here, @Hillan, you're up.

[Burning Kitty]

Ya know, with how quirky our league characters are, I gotta wonder.

What is going through Batman's mind when he sees all of them?

@Archmage MC

I'm to old for this shit.

[Omega Man]

<Snipped quote by Archmage MC>

I'm to old for this shit.

@Burning Kitty

Exactly. LOL

Justice league trailer is out and it's soooooooo good. It's ridiculous how awesome this flick is gonna be.



-00492

[Omega Man]

I've watched it at least 10 times... I *think* that's a Supergirl reference near the 1:40 mark... and Alfred straight up mentions the exploding penguins from Batman Returns. This films gonna be so badass...

-00492

[Archmage MC]

@Member 00492 Whos the director. Are they male or female. I know how WB execs think, so this distinction is very important. At least, thats how I think WW went since that was their first female director and that actually did well since they didn't meddle like they did with all the male ones.

[Lord Wraith]

It was Synder who had to step down due to a family emergency (his son committed suicide). So Joss Whedon was brought in to do shoot the last scenes and take over editing.

In Joss we trust.

[Archmage MC]

@Lord Wraith mm... We'll see. Depends on how much meddling the WB management does. Thats why everyone but WW was so bad. If they don't meddle and let the director DO THEIR JOB, then it should be fine.

[Lord Wraith]

@Lord Wraith mm... We'll see. Depends on how much meddling the WB management does. Thats why everyone but WW was so bad. If they don't meddle and let the director DO THEIR JOB, then it should be fine.

@Archmage MC

But they have to catch up to Marvel and they have toys to sell.

[Roman]

I actually enjoyed BvS more than WW and worry that Whedon will undermine Zack's ongoing tone and vision

[Lord Wraith]

I actually enjoyed BvS more than WW and worry that Whedon will undermine Zack's ongoing tone and vision

@Roman

I'm kind of hoping he does exactly that because I don't like Synder's tone or vision. Everything is so dark and washed out, everyone is so dark. These are comic book movies, Wonder Woman was bright and vibrant (where appropriate, war and London not so much but to be fair they shouldn't be).

Batman Versus Superman was a mess. At the very least it should have been broken into two movies to give us time to develop motivations and characters instead of rushing through a wild goose chase of a plot. The first movie should have ended with the Batman and Superman fight, while the second movie would have focused on the fallout of said conflict with Lex going on to create Doomsday leading to the death of Superman.

We had a brief discussion regarding the movie in Discord yesterday and while I think it was Member who said that it had to happen before Justice League, I disagree. Batman and Superman should of had time to work together, friction building in their differences before eventually they come head to head after a mission goes horribly wrong. Batman could have quit the League and gone on to do his own thing before his actions bring him into conflict with Superman once again, ala The Dark Knight Returns where this entire idea is ripped from.

Batman Versus Superman should never have been the second entry to the DC Live Action Universe, and Suicide Squad should definitely not been the third. Warner Bros. should have set up their trinity in solo movies, hell even skipped Batman because you can, everyone knows his story. But yeah, I definitely think it should have been Man of Steel, Caped Crusader (Since Dark Knight was already done), Goddess of Truth and then led into Justice League where we introduce characters like Aquaman, Flash and (ugh) Cyborg. This then leads to spin offs and greater universe building.

/Endrant

I really want to like DC Movies, but they're making it so freakin' hard to do so.

[Hillan]

Posted.

If you're still here, @Hillan, you're up.

@Sir Lurksalot

You know it famalam. I'll get a post up later tonight. Can't quite keep up with this OOC chattering, though. But, that's what I get for signing up to a 15-ish people RP, haha.

[NecroKnight]

@Lord Wraith

You want a way to make a decent Batman vs Superman formula?

Look up Injustice and Injustice 2...

[Lord Wraith]

@Lord Wraith

You want a way to make a decent Batman vs Superman formula?

Look up Injustice and Injustice 2...

@NecroKnight

Played them both, and while they're great as one shots, there's no coming back from that story line. I can't see Superman being redeemed, Wonder Woman is basically a despot, at least Flash and GL got some redemption in 2. But if that's the path they took for the cinematic universe they'd basically be permenantly cementing Superman's place as a villain. Unless a cinematic universe took more time to play Superman as sympathetic, something I don't find the games too. Haven't tried the comics mind you, but yeah, after the Joker is killed, I don't feel sympathy for Superman anymore. Anything beyond that was extremism making him a terrorist.

[Archmage MC]

@Lord Wraith To be fair, unless a hero comes around that can basically cream Superman with him having almost no hope of winning WITHOUT using kryptonite, AND said hero becomes as mainstream as Batman/Superman/WW/Cyborg/ext while also being countered by one or two of those heroes as hard as they counter Superman, Superman is just a better villain than a hero. Hes just too strong otherwise.

Marvel is way better at hero balance than DC. You could lose Superman from DC and not lose much, and infact everything would be better as heroes would counter heroes and such and no hero would feel so super domineering in-universe as it does now. Sure Batman would still be top billing, but people are ok with him since lots of heroes can beat him 1v1.

[Afro Samurai]

@Lord Wraith To be fair, unless a hero comes around that can basically cream Superman with him having almost no hope of winning WITHOUT using kryptonite, AND said hero becomes as mainstream as Batman/Superman/WW/Cyborg/ext while also being countered by one or two of those heroes as hard as they counter Superman, Superman is just a better villain than a hero. Hes just too strong otherwise.

Marvel is way better at hero balance than DC. You could lose Superman from DC and not lose much, and infact everything would be better as heroes would counter heroes and such and no hero would feel so super domineering in-universe as it does now. Sure Batman would still be top billing, but people are ok with him since lots of heroes can beat him 1v1.

@Archmage MC

It isn't that Superman cannot be beaten. There are several superheroes who can beat Superman one-on-one: Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Dr. Manhattan, Flash, (though he's not a hero) Doomsday, etc. Superman's perceived invincibility has more to do with him being the golden boy of DC and comics in general than his actual power. Spectre, Etrigon, Constaintine, Orion, Darksied, Firestorm--there are a litany of heroes who are more than capable of defeating Superman.

Even in the comics, there is little that can make one sympathetic to Superman's position. He becomes a totalitarian and a dictator. If creators were to invert Superman's character to the Injustice incarnation in the comics (where he uses heat vision to murder two hundred people, blows up Darkseid's son, kills Green Arrow, has Szaz carry out a hit on Alfred (yes, the Alfred Pennyworth) among other things), few would find sympathy or empathy for the golden child.

[Lord Wraith]

@Lord Wraith To be fair, unless a hero comes around that can basically cream Superman with him having almost no hope of winning WITHOUT using kryptonite, AND said hero becomes as mainstream as Batman/Superman/WW/Cyborg/ext while also being countered by one or two of those heroes as hard as they counter Superman, Superman is just a better villain than a hero. Hes just too strong otherwise.

Marvel is way better at hero balance than DC. You could lose Superman from DC and not lose much, and infact everything would be better as heroes would counter heroes and such and no hero would feel so super domineering in-universe as it does now. Sure Batman would still be top billing, but people are ok with him since lots of heroes can beat him 1v1.

@Archmage MC

I completely disagree with this entire sentiment. Superman is one of the most compelling heroes out there and the fact that he isn't challenged often is the fault of lazy and uninspired writers. For years Superman has faced off against Lex in a battle of wits and people loved it. The thing people always forget is that they look at Superman and see his impressive array of powers and assume that nothing can challenge him.

But Superman beneath the suit is one of us, he's human. And the best Superman stories are written when the writer remembers that.

Everybody hurts sometimes. And pain doesn't have to be physical. The best stories for Superman are the ones that push his mind and heart to the limit, the ones that make you feel for him. Likewise, Superman has to show amazing restraint in his life, he could easily reach out and snap most of his foes' neck but he doesn't. He doesn't because he's better than that, because he stands for something. Even in a world made of cardboard, Superman takes care not to cause unnecessary harm. He's spent an entire life managing strength that's strong than a locomotive, blending into a world that moves at a snail's pace next to him and all because why? Because he knows the responsible that comes with such power, he cares for the world and truly wants to do better for it. He knows he can't just muscle his way through saving the world because guess what? Humanity is screwed up, you solve world hunger, we'll cause a world drought, you cure cancer, I'm sure we'll create a new super disease. But you can protect humanity and that's what Superman is, he's a protector, a watchful guardian. But he is not a despot, he's not a dictator and he's not an enforcer. A well written Superman shares no traits with that of a villain.

[Afro Samurai]

<Snipped quote by Archmage MC>

I completely disagree with this entire sentiment. Superman is one of the most compelling heroes out there and the fact that he isn't challenged often is the fault of lazy and uninspired writers. For years Superman has faced off against Lex in a battle of wits and people loved it. The thing people always forget is that they look at Superman and see his impressive array of powers and assume that nothing can challenge him.

But Superman beneath the suit is one of us, he's human. And the best Superman stories are written when the writer remembers that.

Everybody hurts sometimes. And pain doesn't have to be physical. The best stories for Superman are the ones that push his mind and heart to the limit, the ones that make you feel for him. Likewise, Superman has to show amazing restraint in his life, he could easily reach out and snap most of his foes' neck but he doesn't. He doesn't because he's better than that, because he stands for something. Even in a world made of cardboard, Superman takes care not to cause unnecessary harm. He's spent an entire life managing strength that's strong than a locomotive, blending into a world that moves at a snail's pace next to him and all because why? Because he knows the responsible that comes with such power, he cares for the world and truly wants to do better for it. He knows he can't just muscle his way through saving the world because guess what? Humanity is screwed up, you solve world hunger, we'll cause a world drought, you cure cancer, I'm sure we'll create a new super disease. But you can protect humanity and that's what Superman is, he's a protector, a watchful guardian. But he is not a despot, he's not a dictator and he's not an enforcer. A well written Superman shares no traits with that of a villain.

@Lord Wraith

Injustice Superman is well written, though. Superman, even beneath his suit, is human-like but he is not human. The fact of the matter is Superman is an alien, and while his world is like ours, Krypton is not Earth and the manners and customs his people have are not our own. He is different, regardless of how similar he is to humankind. Injustice flips the entire trope, but it is not an anomaly of character; since Superman is human-like, he experiences grief just as we do. As such, it examines what would happen when Superman is pushed. But the push is--contrary to what some believe--not an extreme, as the death of Lois Lane is symbolic of the loss all humans must go through at some point in life. Superman's reaction to such death is also not one we have never seen (revenge killings are well-documented parts of human existence) in that he kills the perpetrator. It is something any parent of a child who has been murdered or any spouse whose partner has been murdered feels but typically does not act on: here, Superman does.

It is not out of Superman's character to kill, it is not out of any superhero's character to kill. Superheros are, after all, representative of humankind--they are not paragons of hope or mongers of villainy. As you said, they are human; as such, they are flawed. They are not ideals, they are attempts to reflect what humans might be if we had these kinds of abilities--but they retain one crucial aspect of our character, they are imperfect. While Superman stands for justice, peace, liberty, equality--he exists in a world which spits in the face of these ideals, and he is not immune to the consequences of the sinister and broken world in which he resides. A well-written Superman does share traits with the villain, because both Superman and the villain are but two people who are subject to all of man's crucial character flaws. Both hero and villain are, and have always been, people who cannot escape the imperfection of Man--regardless of how many kittens they can save from trees.

[Hillan]

<Snipped quote by Archmage MC>

I completely disagree with this entire sentiment. Superman is one of the most compelling heroes out there and the fact that he isn't challenged often is the fault of lazy and uninspired writers. For years Superman has faced off against Lex in a battle of wits and people loved it. The thing people always forget is that they look at Superman and see his impressive array of powers and assume that nothing can challenge him.

But Superman beneath the suit is one of us, he's human. And the best Superman stories are written when the writer remembers that.

@Lord Wraith

American Alien is my favorite comic for this very reason, and speaks volumes to his character. So does All-Star, and I think those two titles are the crash course in the depths of Superman's character that anyone should read to understand his character.

[Omega Man]

Batman makes a better villain than Superman, and we're finally gonna see that in this Dark Multiverse in DC Metal.

Superman to me is like a fine wine. He's an acquired taste. And 90% of writers don't know what they're doing with him.

The problem with Batman v Superman is that the movie was too caught up in it's own story of Lex setting up the confrontation between the two heroes, in that it took an extended cut of the movie to make more sense of it. However a three hour movie with that much exposition is horrible. Two minutes of Superman followed by twenty minutes of exposition. Two minutes of Batman followed by thirty minutes of exposition. Superman only had 43 lines of dialogue the entire film, and he was title star!

Directors can't find one story to try and adapt so they 'make their own' using bits from several stories. B v S took bits from Death of Superman, Dark Knight Returns, the Trinity monthly, etc. Now JL is taking bit from the New52 JL, World Without Superman, amd the Wally West era of the Flash [cause Barry had no personality in the Silver Age]. You know why the new Batman director Matt Reeves threw out the Afleck/Geoff Johns script for Batman? Because they did the same thing with their story and he knew it wouldn't translate to film.

-00492