These Dark Stars

[Polybius]

@GreivousKhan I was going to leave it at FTL and hope interested players would fill in the gaps. Control of interstellar travel should be highly regulated under Imperial rule, with the inevitable black market pilots and devices and all the trappings leaning over the edge of hard sci-fi. If gravity wells is a thing that works I'm not hard set on any particular method. I don't recall FTL being directly addressed in the star wars films , and I know a major plot point of Dune is the guild navigators, spice and all that psychedelic stuff. I agree that it is something that should be decided on before the RP begins. Thanks for bringing it up. Discuss ...

[Isotope]

Well, I don't really have a preference on type but like I said I'd suggest the gravity well rule to preempt ftl asteroids and missiles appearing inside your atmosphere/shields. As an aesthetic matter maybe warp or hyperdrive over wormholes, blink drives, or other instant transit. FTL taking time and there being a navigation component fits better imo.

[GreivousKhan]

@GreivousKhan@GreivousKhan I was going to leave it at FTL and hope interested players would fill in the gaps. Control of interstellar travel should be highly regulated under Imperial rule, with the inevitable black market pilots and devices and all the trappings leaning over the edge of hard sci-fi. If gravity wells is a thing that works I'm not hard set on any particular method. I don't recall FTL being directly addressed in the star wars films , and I know a major plot point of Dune is the guild navigators, spice and all that psychedelic stuff. I agree that it is something that should be decided on before the RP begins. Thanks for bringing it up. Discuss ...

@Polybius

Actually, as far as Star Wars goes, (and I'm glad you mentioned them as it has my fav form of FTL) they happen to use what are called hyperlanes, places in space where you can only travel from one system to the next with, creating a kind of connect the dots high way. Which is how they can get away with having choke points and why you need to take a series of systems before you reach your main objective. Thus expanding wars immensely which is part of the reason why canon conflicts in Star Wars take so damn long.

However, the dunes type of FTL kind of reminds me of Warhammers in which you need gifted members (psykers in Warhammers case) to act as navigators to allow travel through the warp. That would make for some interesting plot points if this setting needs similar navigators like, say, those sorcerers. Perhaps a hybrid of the two? That way you can have the interesting mesh of tradelines (imagine if one person owned an intersection of many lanes, would make for a kind of Constantinople in space.) and also slightly more interesting conflicts that are sure to arise given the current turmoil.

I'll leave the exact nature of the FTL mode of travel to you and adjust accordingly as long as we have some census, the advantage of having everyone being within the same empire is we should more or less have the same exact FTL technology. Just having us have FTL alone is a little vague I think, doable in a single writer story but iffier in a collaborative effort like this.

[Isotope]

Maybe superluminal travel is only possible along specific star lanes and if one happens to venture outside them in transit it results in a feedback loop that burns out the drive and leaves the ship stranded in interstellar space? In order to make sure you stay in the lanes you'd either need an extremely powerful computer or a somewhat precognitive individual sensitive to the void? Maybe before the machine wars AI navigators were common but during and after the war void sensitive pre-cog navigators became commonplace?

So you can forego using biological navigators, but only by spending quite a bit more on a large and clunky unintelligent machine since AI is prohibited?

Just a suggestion @Polybius@GreivousKhan.

[Flagg]

Well, I don't really have a preference on type but like I said I'd suggest the gravity well rule to preempt ftl asteroids and missiles appearing inside your atmosphere/shields. As an aesthetic matter maybe warp or hyperdrive over wormholes, blink drives, or other instant transit. FTL taking time and there being a navigation component fits better imo.

@Isotope

Since this has a fantasy element, may I suggest we have at least two forms of FTL: one perhaps inspired by SW with Imperial-regulated hyperlanes and ofc secret hyperlanes and 'back alley' ways of evading Imp control. The other could be something closer to Dune or 40K, using the Void to travel? I like the idea of 'hell-cutters' or the Sorcerer's Path going thru some eerie dimension.

[Isotope]

@Flagg's idea is cool too! Though there'd have to be some reason why everyone doesn't just use sorcerers if they aren't burdened by the limits of hyperlanes.

[Flagg]

@Flagg's idea is cool too! Though there'd have to be some reason why everyone doesn't just use sorcerers if they aren't burdened by the limits of hyperlanes.

@Isotope

True. I like the idea of relatively defined hyperlanes because you can come up with awesome names and lore for the different pathways through the stars and different quirks to each one that opens interesting story telling possibilities- the chance of 'hyperstorms' along one road, or one road that peters out and starts up again some distance away, forcing a slog through realspace. The suggestion about the Void was that it'd be cool if some small, special number of ships could then bypass this system, even at great risk. But it would need to be fairly rare.

[GreivousKhan]

<Snipped quote by Isotope>

Since this has a fantasy element, may I suggest we have at least two forms of FTL: one perhaps inspired by SW with Imperial-regulated hyperlanes and ofc secret hyperlanes and 'back alley' ways of evading Imp control. The other could be something closer to Dune or 40K, using the Void to travel? I like the idea of 'hell-cutters' or the Sorcerer's Path going thru some eerie dimension.

@Flagg

I do like this idea as well. My original idea was that originally the Empire used their early form of star travel being loading up people in a massive colony ship and catapulting it into space and hoping for the best, the inhabitants surviving the years by going into cryo-sleep. Upon finding out about the void/veil humanity was able to reach FTL speeds thought impossible before by using said sorcerer navigators.

Maybe superluminal travel is only possible along specific star lanes and if one happens to venture outside them in transit it results in a feedback loop that burns out the drive and leaves the ship stranded in interstellar space? In order to make sure you stay in the lanes you'd either need an extremely powerful computer or a somewhat precognitive individual sensitive to the void? Maybe before the machine wars AI navigators were common but during and after the war void sensitive pre-cog navigators became commonplace?

So you can forego using biological navigators, but only by spending quite a bit more on a large and clunky unintelligent machine since AI is prohibited?

Just a suggestion @Polybius@GreivousKhan.

@Isotope

I also like the idea of there being a possible other option to human/sapient navigators, albeit, a much more expensive one for those factions that are anti-sorceror but have good tech. Could make for all kinds of interesting narratives for sorcerors if they were still so valuable being a cheaper though rare alternative. I can easily see the empire making such navigators as people literally owned and protected (see exploited) by the state.

I also agree if sorcerers can bypass hyperlanes and entire systems (thus Imperial checkposts) entirely why would not everyone use them? I like the idea that only sorcerers can 'SEE' these lanes in the first place as weaker links into the void that allow FTL travel into an through them. Thus explaining how the lanes were discovered.

Thoughts?

[Flagg]

<Snipped quote by Flagg>

I also agree if sorcerers can bypass hyperlanes and entire systems (thus Imperial checkposts) entirely why would not everyone use them? I like the idea that only sorcerers can 'SEE' these lanes in the first place as weaker links into the void that allow FTL travel into an through them. Thus explaining how the lanes were discovered.

Thoughts?

@GreivousKhan

I would only suggest that the 'why would everyone not use sorcerers?' question can be answered by having Void travel be 1) risky 2) require enormous magic power and/or resources 3) maybe it's not 'sorcerers' that can do it alone, but a special kind of ship made of specific materials or something.

[Polybius]

Maybe vacare (our space wizards) can only travel FTL in small ships or simply step through them? I.e. they couldn't transport an entire imperial armada but they could easily evacuate their liege Lord if necessary.
Edit;caught me on mobile

[Flagg]

Maybe vacare (our space wizards) can only travel FTL in small ships or simply step through them? I.e. they couldn't transport an entire Ramada but they could easily evacuate their liege Lord if necessary.

@Polybius

Might be good to have a specific subsect of their kind be the best at traveling the Void. The Pathfinders or something.

[GreivousKhan]

Ok let's narrow down what we can agree on for sure atm, so we have the idea we want hyperlanes in some fashion for the interesting narrative it can bring? Also, we agree that the space wizards are needed for FTL, though AI once was able to do the same thing, however, since the machine wars those have been booted to the wayside. Oh, and the inability to use FTL in a gravity well of a star.

Anything else for sure?

As for more theory crafting, I'd think normally even a powerful vacare cannot allow an anything too large to slip into the lane. Buty perhaps a specific mutation among them or perhaps a school of practice allows them to become strong enough to work wither others of their like to allow them to transport fleets. You know, with FTL so far seeming to be so difficult this might create an interesting side effect in where outright space battles may seem too be too risky (possibly getting precious navigators killed, or worse captured.) thus alternate forms of combat probably could occur, a greater focus on information or ground warfare. Just a thought.

Kind of reminds me of Supreme Commander.

[Flagg]

Ok let's narrow down what we can agree on for sure atm, so we have the idea we want hyperlanes in some fashion for the interesting narrative it can bring? Also, we agree that the space wizards are needed for FTL, though AI once was able to do the same thing, however, since the machine wars those have been booted to the wayside. Oh, and the inability to use FTL in a gravity well of a star.

Anything else for sure?

As for more theory crafting, I'd think normally even a powerful vacare cannot allow an anything too large to slip into the lane. Buty perhaps a specific mutation among them or perhaps a school of practice allows them to become strong enough to work wither others of their like to allow them to transport fleets. You know, with FTL so far seeming to be so difficult this might create an interesting side effect in where outright space battles may seem too be too risky (possibly getting precious navigators killed, or worse captured.) thus alternate forms of combat probably could occur, a greater focus on information or ground warfare. Just a thought.

Kind of reminds me of Supreme Commander.

@GreivousKhan

For normal hyperlane travel we should also have a non-precog/wizard option for navigation for anti- or no magic factions. Extremely sensitive/expensive cognition engines like @Isotope suggested?

[GreivousKhan]

<Snipped quote by GreivousKhan>

For normal hyperlane travel we should also have a non-precog/wizard option for navigation for anti- or no magic factions. Extremely sensitive/expensive cognition engines like @Isotope suggested?

@Flagg

I thought I mentioned that with the AI part but I guess I only touched on it. Still ya, for sure, more expensive engines for hyperlane travel.

Edit: maybe they are more expensive because they require some means of tapping into said void? Thus, might be partly magical in a sense. How they might do this though is another thing.

[Isotope]

So here's what I think we've more or less got, with some fluff explanation.

-Superluminal travel is 'Edge to edge' and doesn't work inside the gravity wells of stars.

-Superluminal travel is normally only possible along star lanes, though extremely powerful Vacare may be able to see into and navigate along the void itself. This is dangerous and possible only for smaller ships capable of quickly reacting to fluctuations in the fabric of the void.

-Travel along the star lanes either requires a Vacare navigator or a Cognition Engine, generally speaking Cognition Engines are very costly and do the job of an AI without the capacity of originality or introspective thought.

-AI Navigators were common before the Machine Wars.

Correct me if I got anything wrong there? Now my assumption for how machines can navigate starlanes is that they can use a sort of advanced predictive math to plot a course along a fluctuating star lane. Vacare would be able to see the fluctuations in the void directly and peer ever so slightly into the future to follow them. Now the most powerful Vacare would be able to see the very fabric of the void and follow rapidly changing currents to get where they want, but the ship would have to be nimble enough to match the course the Vacare plots. Even then, it's an exceedingly dangerous game to bypass hyperlane.

Anyone want to add to or dispute that?

[Sierra]

I've more or less skimmed most of this. Do people want me to rain science on this parade or nah?

[GreivousKhan]

So here's what I think we've more or less got, with some fluff explanation.

-Superluminal travel is 'Edge to edge' and doesn't work inside the gravity wells of stars.

-Superluminal travel is normally only possible along star lanes, though extremely powerful Vacare may be able to see into and navigate along the void itself. This is dangerous and possible only for smaller ships capable of quickly reacting to fluctuations in the fabric of the void.

-Travel along the star lanes either requires a Vacare navigator or a Cognition Engine, generally speaking Cognition Engines are very costly and do the job of an AI without the capacity of originality or introspective thought.

-AI Navigators were common before the Machine Wars.

Correct me if I got anything wrong there? Now my assumption for how machines can navigate starlanes is that they can use a sort of advanced predictive math to plot a course along a fluctuating star lane. Vacare would be able to see the fluctuations in the void directly and peer ever so slightly into the future to follow them. Now the most powerful Vacare would be able to see the very fabric of the void and follow rapidly changing currents to get where they want, but the ship would have to be nimble enough to match the course the Vacare plots. Even then, it's an exceedingly dangerous game to bypass hyperlane.

Anyone want to add to or dispute that?

@Isotope

I for one like it. Makes sense, explains a few things also adds alternatives, even a method outside of predicted hyperlanes for travel, though, it is appropriately dangerous. The only thing I'd like to add is that those Cognition engines (which probably use V.I in place of A.I) probably require a unique material, hell maybe something directly from the void that allows it to make predictions based on changes within the void itself. So in a way their both require somewhat finite resources even if one does have the money and know how to make Cognition engines.

(Also, FTL communication likely also uses the void, could probably call it void-casting. Another role that might be filled by sorcerers or a different kind of void engine.)

[Isotope]

@SierraConsidering the edge to edge rule is there solely for the sake of gameplay, and we're talking about literal sorcery, there's really no real science to be rained here imo.

Superluminal travel is always fantasy anyway, even the 'scientific' methods are just straight up conjecture.

[GreivousKhan]

I've more or less skimmed most of this. Do people want me to rain science on this parade or nah?

@Sierra

We seem to be in the area of Space opera over any hard science atm.

[Isotope]

@GreivousKhan

<Snipped quote by Isotope>

I for one like it. Makes sense, explains a few things also adds alternatives, even a method outside of predicted hyperlanes for travel, though, it is appropriately dangerous. The only thing I'd like to add is that those Cognition engines (which probably use V.I in place of A.I) probably require a unique material, hell maybe something directly from the void that allows it to make predictions based on changes within the void itself. So in a way their both require somewhat finite resources even if one does have the money and know how to make Cognition engines.

(Also, FTL communication likely also uses the void, could probably call it void-casting. Another role that might be filled by sorcerers or a different kind of void engine.)

@GreivousKhan

Sure, though in lieu of handwavium maybe Cognition Engines brute force a sort of 'bridge' to see into the void. The Cognition Engine would then be needed immediately in order to stabilize the 'bridge' but due to the nature of machine learning only some of the time would the Engine arrive at an optimal solution before the bridge destabilizes and destroys it. Thus making Cognition Engines would be very expensive as you'd have no guarantee you'd get any functional machines out of a given batch and each machine would be quite the investment just to lose the vast majority of them to chance. AI, being sapient, had a sort of affinity for the void that made the process far less dangerous.

So a Vacare is just the far cheaper and less costly option. Those who manufacture Cognition Engines do so explicitly to avoid relying on Vacare and accept the random nature of the manufacturing process and the cost of losing so many expensive VI machines. Just a thought, mostly had because I couldn't think of a name for whatever unobtanium we would have needed haha.