High Casual Rant

[DruSM157]

<Snipped quote by DruSM157>

I just see it as a way to spread exposure. Someone might not check Advanced Interest Checks at all, but instead check General Interest Checks and Casual Interest Checks. If a GM posts their interest check in Advanced & General, then people could actually notice it and it can act as their introduction to Advanced roleplay, provided they feel they can meet the standards. Quite a few of the roleplays I've joined are ones I found through General Interest Checks, if I look back on it.

@Mara

Why even have those specific interest forums at all? Why not just one place for interest checks then?

[skidcrow]

<Snipped quote by Mara>

Why even have those specific interest forums at all? Why not just one place for interest checks then?

@DruSM157

Because categorisation means you don't have to sift through page after page of Free checks to find a Casual or Advanced one. It's the same issue with removing the subforums, essentially.

[DruSM157]

<Snipped quote by DruSM157>

Because categorisation means you don't have to sift through page after page of Free checks to find a Casual or Advanced one. It's the same issue with removing the subforums, essentially.

@Mara

so the options are repost the same topic in two different forums or have it get lost in the miasma of one single forum?

[skidcrow]

<Snipped quote by Mara>

so the options are repost the same topic in two different forums or have it get lost in the miasma of one single forum?

@DruSM157

Well, when it comes to Advanced the latter option is "have it die because people are intimidated by Advanced (for no reason) and don't use it", but yea.

[NuttsnBolts]

<Snipped quote by NuttsnBolts>

But hasn't it already been established that people (or rather, the mods) don't mind if someone posts a Casual RP in Advanced or vice-versa? What stops people from making an invite-only Advanced roleplay where the more casual members of the friend group aren't lynched by the GM for making shorter posts (a thing that barely happens in Advanced anyway, at least from what I've seen)? Why not just do the same in Casual, where the more advanced members of the friend group can make their posts however long they want? Because, let's be frank, maximum paragraph restrictions are a little (read: very) ridiculous to enforce. Why do people insist on sitting on the fence with a redundant tag that only serves to decrease activity in the Advanced subforum?

<Snipped quote by NuttsnBolts>



Note also the "see individual GM for RP specific standards" connected to both descriptions. Now, before I write any further, I'm operating under the premise that this thread is only for discussion and doesn't particularly call for change. While change would be appreciated, it's obviously sort of silly to try and outright ban a tag that people put in their roleplay titles. Instead it discusses the issue and collects different people's views on it. Right? _{(This post is also gonna be really disjointed because I keep getting distracted oops)}

Personally, I think the High-Casual tag was founded on the stigma of elitism in Advanced that intimidates many roleplayers. People feel that because their writing isn't a whole damned novel, (this comma is probably in the wrong place but honestly the flow feels weird without it) they should stay in Casual and git gud(tm). I don't think this is the case. I've never really seen Casual and Advanced as being separated by post length, because in terms of post length the two overlap a lot. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there's posts in Casual that are longer than some Advanced posts. Instead, I view them as two tiers of post quality and world-building. Casual roleplays are (typically, though everything described in this post is based on my roleplay experience alone) set in pre-determined real world locations, and posts feature more fluff and 'collabs' between writers. Advanced has more world-building, typically set in GM-created or existing fictional worlds, with posts that are made up of content more relevant to the plot, instead of a paragraph about someone brushing their teeth. Unless it's a roleplay about people who brush their teeth, in which case that paragraph would be relevant. Again, this is all how I view it and there are plenty of roleplays that "break the norm".

Yes, this post is probably me regurgitating everything that's already been said. But I want to be a part of something, damnit.

(Also, I don't think removing the subforums outright and using the tag system instead would be any good. At least with subforums you have the convenience of not having to click through page after page of Free/Casual/Advanced (choose whichever one is most relevant to you, reader) roleplays just to find one that suits your skill level. Maybe if an option to hide roleplays with a certain tag was implemented this could work, but that would require even more work from Mahz.)

@Mara

If someone posts a Casual RP (using that term loosely to avoid the overton window) in an Advanced section, gets a group together, and has a successful RP... then we have an RP that works and may be mistakingly placed in the wrong spot. It's still site activity and it's much better than the many GMs who make an RP and let it die after about 20 posts (we all can hand on heart say we've been that GM, or been in an RP like that).

I can also agree with you that Advanced RPs are more in-depth and detailed. It's like comparing the world of Skyrim against The Mummy (random DVD selected for this) where one has so much more detail and depth that not necessarily everyone wants to invest time into. And you're also right... Advance a few years back was very elite with people boasting about how if you weren't a novel writer, you weren't an advance player.

Not a long reply, and I apologise for not having more detail, but I can't disagree with much with what you say at the same time. Removing the section may help, but people want to have a separation between that "too short" and "too long" player base; a black and white goal for a rainbow of greys.

[NuttsnBolts]

Please remember we do have a Spam Forum, so any memeing should be limited to that section.

[skidcrow]

<Snipped quote by Mara>

If someone posts a Casual RP (using that term loosely to avoid the overton window) in an Advanced section, gets a group together, and has a successful RP... then we have an RP that works and may be mistakingly placed in the wrong spot. It's still site activity and it's much better than the many GMs who make an RP and let it die after about 20 posts (we all can hand on heart say we've been that GM, or been in an RP like that).

I can also agree with you that Advanced RPs are more in-depth and detailed. It's like comparing the world of Skyrim against The Mummy (random DVD selected for this) where one has so much more detail and depth that not necessarily everyone wants to invest time into. And you're also right... Advance a few years back was very elite with people boasting about how if you weren't a novel writer, you weren't an advance player.

Not a long reply, and I apologise for not having more detail, but I can't disagree with much with what you say at the same time. Removing the section may help, but people want to have a separation between that "too short" and "too long" player base; a black and white goal for a rainbow of greys.

@NuttsnBolts

I don't think we need to remove the section, just give a clearer definition of what each subforum is (as stated before) since the current descriptions are outdated. There's roleplays in Casual that are Advanced in all but section, justified by the "high casual" tag hastily slapped onto it. Otherwise, can't really fault you on what you said.

I've had a point raised to me that it's because Advanced is less active than Casual, but surely this would be rectified if people stopped being so stubborn and migrated? Hell, I'll admit to joining more roleplays listed under High Casual than I do under Advanced for this sole reason alone. However, I'd gladly jump ship if everyone else did. The diversity might even allow for playerbases to be shaken up a bit, instead of it being the same handful of people with the same GM. It's just a matter of trying to remove this idea that Advanced is full of elitist pricks when they moved to Nation and haven't been seen since, all caught up in their war games. _{*stares at Precipricks*}

it's 3am i'm sorry if this doesn't make sense

[NuttsnBolts]

@Mara So as a side thought, are you in any RPs that are active, have a decent player base, and not really looking for new members, but at the same time feel that it may be more than benchline casual?

Asking cause lets say you propose the question to relocate the RP to advance to help boost the numbers there and show that it's not going to change the RP (even the thread will remain the same), do you think you'd get the buy in of other players?

I believe part of the concern also lies in how the Guild may advertise with many simply gravitating to Casual to look for an RP, but the final RP doesn't necessarily have to stay in that section.

(Do you have trouble cleaning, are you unable to get off the couch without spilling 5 gallons of juice, then I have the snake oil solution for you!)

[skidcrow]

@Mara So as a side thought, are you in any RPs that are active, have a decent player base, and not really looking for new members, but at the same time feel that it may be more than benchline casual?

@NuttsnBolts

all my RPs are d- oh wait this is a hypothetical

Asking cause lets say you propose the question to relocate the RP to advance to help boost the numbers there and show that it's not going to change the RP (even the thread will remain the same), do you think you'd get the buy in of other players?

Yes. There will always be people that outright ignore any other sections and focus entirely on their preferred section. Moving a roleplay that was essentially Advanced but in the wrong section will allow more people to see it. Of course, since it's not really looking for new players, it doesn't particularly matter if only one extra person expresses interest, but it's still nice.

I believe part of the concern also lies in how the Guild may advertise with many simply gravitating to Casual to look for an RP, but the final RP doesn't necessarily have to stay in that section.

I mean, isn't that what General Interest Checks is supposed to be? It seems like we took a wrong turn somewhere and Casual wound up being the hub for roleplay searches, from Free to Advanced players alike. Plus, you'd be doing yourself a disservice by posting it in Casual Checks instead of Advanced Checks if it's moving to Advanced anyway, seeing as I mentioned people who ignore other subforums earlier. I suppose it's better than masquerading under High Casual, but still.

[Lady Absinthia]

@Mara Think that would boil down to what the over all feel from a group would be. Moving an RP that has reached a certain point from Casual to Advanced is something I have asked a moderator about. I was told it was no problem. Great. Then I took it to my group and we spoke about it. A vote was cast. The over all decision was to remain because while the Rp's might be heavy in layout and rules, when it comes to actual posting, the majority of people are straight casual. Sure, we have advanced posts - as far as length goes - but much of the time content is not. (Or they are longer posts because of collabing, time skips, etc.)

Now we do have several still up in the air since there was talk about them moving more than others - Soulless Regency, Paradox, and Darker specifically. Yet we are still discussing it. Will any ever be moved on my request? Yet to be seen. If they get moved by a mod because of an over all change on the forum, no worries from me. Future RP's? Yeah, have at least one that will most likely be hosted in Advanced but that is simply because it is the first I have in the works in a very long time that I feel, by my personal standards, is an Advanced RP.

[skidcrow]

@Mara Think that would boil down to what the over all feel from a group would be. Moving an RP that has reached a certain point from Casual to Advanced is something I have asked a moderator about. I was told it was no problem. Great. Then I took it to my group and we spoke about it. A vote was cast. The over all decision was to remain because while the Rp's might be heavy in layout and rules, when it comes to actual posting, the majority of people are straight casual. Sure, we have advanced posts - as far as length goes - but much of the time content is not. (Or they are longer posts because of collabing, time skips, etc.)

Now we do have several still up in the air since there was talk about them moving more than others - Soulless Regency, Paradox, and Darker specifically. Yet we are still discussing it. Will any ever be moved on my request? Yet to be seen. If they get moved by a mod because of an over all change on the forum, no worries from me. Future RP's? Yeah, have at least one that will most likely be hosted in Advanced but that is simply because it is the first I have in the works in a very long time that I feel, by my personal standards, is an Advanced RP.

@Lady Amalthea

I mean, for the longest time I thought your roleplays were in Advanced. Got kind of a surprise to see them pop up in Casual.

Anyways, moving onto your point. If my memory serves me right, my first ever roleplay when I joined RPG was an Advanced roleplay. I was far below the standards — my posts were underdeveloped and contained little information relevant to the roleplay, a stark contrast to the rest of the group. I wasn't kicked out or called out for it, I was allowed to stay with my Casual-level writing in an indisputably Advanced roleplay. I'm surprised I was even accepted in the first place, given I fumbled up with the application itself a few times due to my own sheer ignorance for the information provided in the OP. Yet I was accepted and posted my measly posts.

The point of that analogy was to underline my point about having a group of players with varying skill levels in Advanced — it's completely fine. The sections are less about the players there and more about the actual roleplays. If a roleplay meets the definition of Advanced, then it doesn't matter what level players join, it belongs in Advanced. It's up to the GM to accept and deny those who meet the standards and those who do not. Personally, I think encouraging players to dip their toes into Advanced works wonders for not only their confidence but their writing and dedication. It doesn't have to be that intimidating.

EDIT: Until then, however, there's no need for a redundant tag like High Casual. You want your roleplay to have pages worth of rules but remain in Casual? Cool. It's a Casual roleplay. You can have all the rules in the world but in my eyes it doesn't bump up the skill level of the roleplay, it just increases the entry bar.

Also, there are obviously certain exceptions to my worldview of mixed skill levels to reduce usage of the High Casual tag. One liners are, of course, not really fitting for Casual or Advanced roleplays. I'm thinking more along the lines of 1 - 2 paragraphs minimum for both sections, given we all get writer's block sometimes and just don't know what to say. I still firmly believe the sections aren't about length and instead quality, dedication and world building.

[DruSM157]

EDIT: Until then, however, there's no need for a redundant tag like High Casual. You want your roleplay to have pages worth of rules but remain in Casual? Cool. It's a Casual roleplay. You can have all the rules in the world but in my eyes it doesn't bump up the skill level of the roleplay, it just increases the entry bar.

@Mara

I think you just hit why I hate my writing and I feel like a I’m incapable of writing anything of substance. I never evolved beyond a lower skill level. I don’t know if I ever even had the capability of going beyond the bar I had set for myself.

I need to be alone for a while. Or forever.

[skidcrow]

<Snipped quote by Mara>

I think you just hit why I hate my writing and I feel like a I’m incapable of writing anything of substance. I never evolved beyond a lower skill level. I don’t know if I ever even had the capability of going beyond the bar I had set for myself.

I need to be alone for a while. Or forever.

@DruSM157

It's OK to not have confidence in your writing, it happens to the best of us. You're well beyond the bar of a lot of people out there, all you need to do is look in your nearest AIM chatroom for a confidence boost. Don't hold your standards so high. Give yourself permission to fail.

Hang in there bud. You'll always be Advanced in my eyes. uwu

[mickilennial]

The idea that Advanced is populated by strict, assertive, unfeeling elitists/purists who scoff at your weak attempts at writing is an archaic myth at this point, honestly. I've lurked and participated in the forum since I made the jump to it around four or so years ago and I never got this feeling of elitism that people talk about. Not once.

[Dion]

high cas is more elitist than advanced but that point aside we're kinda beating a dead horse here because nothing will ever happen if we don't have people in administration to make changes

and even then i have to ask if this is the most pressing issue we have. i'd rather have a fucking delete button at this point over a rework of the section system

EDIT: to use different words: whether the sections are gay or not is a non-issue because the forum continues to function whether we make the changes or not. i think deadbeat was asking for a more literary discussion of ideas and not suggesting a change hence why this is in roleplaying discussion and not suggestions and problems -> thread got derailed within a page and i have to say that that is remarkably accurate for literally any serious thread on rpg

[Briza]

i think deadbeat was asking for a more literary discussion of ideas and not suggesting a change hence why this is in roleplaying discussion and not suggestions and problems -> thread got derailed within a page and i have to say that that is remarkably accurate for literally any serious thread on rpg

@Odin

I am sorry. Please, forgive me. Briza will try to be bolder with her ELA next time.

[mickilennial]

Odin pretty much nailed the discussion on its head. Not much else to say unless we want to, as a community, do something about it that doesn't pertain to administrative efforts.

[Dion]

can't do shit except stop using these shitty sections

just do what 50% of all people already do: post all your shit in casual to get the most amount of people into the RP and then post at whatever level you want to

ez pz solution

[Dervish]

Alright, let's go back to 2012-2013 vintage Dervish, who started off in casual to get a feel for writing again after like 4 years. First thing I noticed is Casual is by far the most populated forum, where not posting for a few hours gets your roleplay shoved to the 2nd or 3rd page and any half-way decent idea usually gets a boatload of applications. In short, it's very busy verging on crowded.

I also realized that Casual can mean players range from people who still should write in Free due to one liners and speed posting to people who go above and beyond the game's standards and honestly should write in Advanced. Without detailed standards in the OOC, you get a mixture of people who fall between those two spectrums and if the GM is the kind of person who takes anyone, you can have someone writing 4-5 beautiful paragraphs that account for all the other players to be replied with, "Mary walked over and said "OWO WHATS THIS""

Obviously, that scenario can be avoided if the GM enforces some rules and standards, but let's face it, between inexperience and not wanting to tell people no because you feel like an asshole, you get a mix of player skills and writing styles that clash like a glass of orange juice and toothpaste cocktail garnished with Sour Patch Kids and horse raddish. A lot of people get frustrated with that and it probably contributes to the fact most games seem to have a hard time getting out of the first two IC pages.

So this is where High-Casual comes in; suddenly you have a quick and easy label that conveys the standards you want at a glance and the promise that most players are going to be of a similar skill and standard. That's the reason I joined them, I wanted to write with other people who could do a few paragraphs and some meaningful character development. It was pretty great... then I joined an Advanced RP and realized it was basically the same thing. Haven't looked back since.

Long story short, I think High Casual has its place because let's be honest, a lot of Advanced RPs have some pretty incredible writers and post lengths that can be daunting, and if someone wants to just write 2-3 paragraphs and practice their writing in relative comfort until they figure out what they want or are comfortable with without risking joining a game where collabs are frequent and you have 15,000 word posts at times or where other players speed post and don't have depth to their posts.

It honestly could probably use it's own 4th subforum, Moderate or whatever.