[OOC] The Ghosts of Napoleon

[Dinh AaronMk]

@Pagemaster

If I remember late tonight and if I have time I'll do another pass-over, at the latest over the weekend. Unless I forget. I just spent what time I had left to crank out a new post.

[Willy Vereb]

Can we have a new discord for this? No need for anything fancy but instant messages between multiple players can allow better brainsyorming than forum messages do.

Anyways, I am planting new ideas. One is the Alpine Union which is actually two nations because the French and German side of Switzerland split (with some other adjustments in lands). And that's one idea, I actually have a few others for Switzerland. I'll see which one I'll settle on during Sunday.

Anyways, one idea I need confirmation on. Frederick of Würtenberg turns against Napoleon which leads to him dismantling the personal union of Baden-Würtenberg. Switzerland gains the southern portions of Baden and a significant portion of Hohenzollern. They maintain this after the war in order to keep the French side of Switzerland more in check. Thry also gain Savoy, well, rather they don't shy away ftom their duty to administrate it like in OTL. Would it work? If there is any clash please tell me.

[Dinh AaronMk]

@Willy Vereb

I can't say a lot to proposals until an application is posted. So you're going to have to do some more work than just describing a picture in your head. At least provide a sketch.

But this does give me a conceptual idea that I overlooked when I first made the RP and is perhaps one of those things that can only come up when a concept is returned to seven months after the fact. That being if you're signing up in Europe, or at least Western and Central Europe (Italy included) what does the Congress of London have to say about this? In so far as its mentioned I think a I'm the only one who mentioned it in my French app as it applies to post-Napoleon France. But since we have two people here who are playing as European majors and members of the Congress - Russia and England - this offers a chance of feedback not only from me but two others that can fill out the terms of the Congress, where as I might at the least play the bit part of France in this, by which I mean the self-conscious and intrigue-pilled Talleyrand.

So, pick something, write up a sketch at least to hit the beats, and hand it over to be checked by the Congress Powers to decide whether or not it would fit in a greater plan to stitch the ruin of Old Europe back together as much as possible.

As per the Discord, as indicated earlier this is some Lost Tentative Lore because I had one before, but because lack of attention I decided to delete it to clean up my Discord chats and everyone else's. So for the time being I think I will prefere the permanent public record of forum posts and for people to establish IC habits before I relaunch the Onion Chat. At the least to figure out what these waves up newbies are going to be doing and if this surprise relaunch is going to get wind.

[Willy Vereb]

It's your game but in my experience delays can be costly. I feel asking the players of major powers for everything would be a logistical nightmare. Perhaps only ask them if it involves their interests strongly? What would Russia care what cantons Switzerland have but if a player wants an independent Finland then that's very much relevant, for example.

On the other hand I thought of a differentish Switzerland idea: The United Cantons of Helvetia. A federal presidential republic where they managed to push religious freedom through. Official language is cantonal authority but federal duties usually need both languages.

BTW, what happened to Prussia after Napoleon squashed them? I may be blind but don't see this mentioned. Did their lands get absorbed by the nearby German states? They still exist but shadows of their past glory?

[Dinh AaronMk]

BTW, what happened to Prussia after Napoleon squashed them? I may be blind but don't see this mentioned. Did their lands get absorbed by the nearby German states? They still exist but shadows of their past glory?

@Willy Vereb

London Congress 1822 also known as Prussian Restoration Project because no one, not even Talleyrand wants to know what is in the Mystery Box

Or Poland

[Willy Vereb]

<Snipped quote by Willy Vereb>

London Congress 1822 also known as Prussian Restoration Project because no one, not even Talleyrand wants to know what is in the Mystery Box

Or Poland

@Dinh AaronMk

Can you clarify a bit? Does it mran that we don't know what's up with the Prussians vut most likely they still exist? I remember that Prussians still lost their chance of becoming a great or even regional power so I guess there is a huge migration issue they deal with? Do if yes then perhaps I can still include in my writing how to exploit that to get some experienced personnel where one would need them.

[Dinh AaronMk]

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>
Can you clarify a bit? Does it mran that we don't know what's up with the Prussians vut most likely they still exist? I remember that Prussians still lost their chance of becoming a great or even regional power so I guess there is a huge migration issue they deal with? Do if yes then perhaps I can still include in my writing how to exploit that to get some experienced personnel where one would need them.

@Willy Vereb

The root of the answer boils down to:

The effective Point of Divergence for the RP is the Treaties of Tilsit. While the Prussian monarchy existed practically in so far as Napoleon willed them to continue existing, the stipulations of the treaties outlined merely reparations the Prussian state would have to pay to France and saddled them with crippling debt. Originally signed to bring the Russians into the Continental System and assist Napoleon against the British and the Swedish, the Emperor decided to regardless test the faith of the Russians and instead of simply abiding the slow repayment of debts by Prussia to France, he opted for an immediate and systematic liquidation of Prussian estates to repay the debts. The effect of which was a far more aggressive melting down of the medieval junker class that had until then ruled Prussia and Germany and the rise of the independent small-hold Peasant who were able to acquire their own property for cheap or on lenient financing.

Prussia as a concept or state wasn't annihilated, since in the process of De-Nepoleonization and reducing the extent of French power in Europe it was an aspect of old Prussia. And considering there is as quoted later the first exile of Napoleon, followed by instead a much longer Hundred Days, the phase of French occupation in Prussia wasn't particularly long. But the effects of it went deeper. And for geopolitical reference, as this applies here: the process of peace in Europe during the first Bourbon Restoration was simply to roll back Napoleon's accomplishments, the second peace was to basically roll back France's gains of most of the revolutionary period; especially given the much longer reign Napoleon acquired after winning Waterloo, extending the Hundred Days into A-Lot-Longer-Than-Hundred-Days.

Returning to Europe a hero, Napoleon claimed himself immortal. But rumors abounded that his armies had taken more of a drubbing than he was letting on, and Europe was plunged into the War of the Sixth Coalition by Austria, England, and anti-Napoleon forces in Central and southern Europe that managed to discover and utilize the unhealed weakness in Napoleon's forces from Russia. He was defeated and sent to Elba, which he recovered from and returned to France, defeating the restored Bourbons and rebuilding his Empire

The matter is indirectly addressed here-in, in a sense. Perhaps he never swept over all of Prussia again to depose Hohenzollern rule after it was reimposed after the First Restoration of Bourbon. But in any case, Waterloo was still fought and it's implications to the existence of Prussia there-in.

It is the best of times and the worst of times in Europe. Fourteen years ago, Napoleon Bonapart, Emperor of the French was finally defeated in battle against a coalition force of the British, Swedish, and Russians in an invasion of the British home islands at Kent. In that space of time he had mastered the field of Waterloo, sending the forces of the Seventh Coalition into chaos which he was able to use and bring about his Empire for a second time and continue war against all Europe.

Where a decisive feature for the victory was the Prussians finding their way having gotten lost and arriving in the nick of time, late but not helplessly so of which they were OTL a credit to the Coalition. In this case: not so much, so Prussian proof of restoration was sort of lacking.

So we return to the salient point of the present state of Prussia and Northern Germany

the medieval junker class

The Junkers as a class formed the bulwark of Germanic nobility in the north and the expansion of Germanization of the Slavic lands east of the Elba river and it was in them that much - or all - of the farm land of the Prussian/German state was held through a long line of inheritance passed through the line of the eldest son. During Prussia's rise from Duchy to Kingdom and to the very end the Junkers formed the core of the officer class because sons without inheritance had no where else to go and otherwise held the chivalric tendencies of their class position and education. However, Napoleon did in this RP to the Junkers as the Revolution did to the nobility and destroyed their estates for direct liquidation to not-ennobled Germans as a means to leverage finance for the campaign and performed a dramatic re-organizing of the Prussian state in the process of cutting out the Junker class.

It was not Prussia that was destroyed, but the bulwark of its own aristocracy. The Prussian nobles may have or most likely joined their French counterparts as emigres to England or Russia or elsewhere to wait things out until they could go back and reclaim their estates. But as evidenced by how incomplete Bourbon Absolutist restoration was in France and how OTL and GoN Charles X has not been able to totally destroy the Charter and gut the Napoleonic administration, and how the Napoleonic Civil Code was dominate over most of - if not all - Continental Europe for nearly or more than a century, returning Prussian Junkers who come back to Prussia to reclaim their estates are having at the least a time and a half at it, as the old nobility of France returning after the final and Second Restoration.

This would not however mean that Prussia is necessarily completely ruined. Just totally changed from what it was OTL, a state ruled by a petty nobility who had the military state totally subsumed to its own ego, which then becomes the state. Returning to Prussia Junkers who find it difficult to get their vast estates back from emancipated and landed serfs may just retreat to their last traditional bastion of military service in Prussia. Or even retreat to another major European power; probably not a German minor. The physical shape of Prussia in the new world is determined by what the Congress decided and signed off on in whatever whacky layers of legitimate terms and traditional secret terms in the treaty (in the vein of Compo Formio surrendering Venice to Austria to end the First Coalition).

The state of Prussia isn't so much that it isn't a formidable power in its own right, but it is greatly different from what it was in real life. It's old nobility is a shell of itself. There is a new rural middle class in the form of a larger German landowning base who got their land at French military auction. The Napoleonic state apparatus left behind has left an urban administrative middle class. The Junkers have to trade barbs with their new rivals and the King and his family has to manage the mess, but may have picked up compensatory prizes from the British, Russians, and Talleyrand.

To summarize:
No it means the Prussians still exist, the formatting of the opening post has apparently just lost people because of the Tale of Two Cities type beat to it.
They're still an important German state, any emigration of the old German class is probably going to just be back home to pick up the family legacy, as much as it can be restored. Why go off to someone else if they are less able to get them land? Might as well have careers among the familiar social milieu if nothing else.

[Letter Bee]

Question: Is it acceptable to ask for a preset relationship in this OOC Channel? I might decide to play Egypt after all, but I need one or two European patrons who are willing to tolerate Muhammad Ali's Egyptian Nationalism in exchange for relatively cheap Cotton and other goods...

Made a minor edit.

[Dinh AaronMk]

France's commitments to the Middle East is that the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire and Egypt should be respected

[Letter Bee]

France's commitments to the Middle East is that the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire and Egypt should be respected

@Dinh AaronMk

I can accept that; I'll edit my future submission to check Muhammad Ali's ambitions to take apart the Ottoman Empire, then.

[Letter Bee]

Vilayet of Egypt

Name: Vilayet of Egypt

Leader: Muhammad Ali of Egypt

History: Taking advantage of the power vacuum left in Egypt due to the departure of the Napoleonic Expedition which had taken it from the Ottoman Empire in the last years of the eighteenth century, Muhammad Ali Pasha, an Albanian commander who was part of the Ottoman forces sent to reoccupy Egypt, used the personal troops under his employ as well as his canny political skills to play the old elites and his fellow newcomers against each other, eventually rising to power as Egypt's new governor. As the Napoleonic Wars wound down, he dispatched his chief rivals, the Mamluks, through a bloody massacre that broke their power forever.

This allowed him to pass vital reforms without interference, such as the nationalization of land and the taxation of charitable endowments. Through a monopoly on trade and the improvement of Egypt's much-neglected agricultural system, he made enough revenue to not just buy Western weapons, but build factories that produced muskets and a shipyard capable of building 100-gun warships (this was IRL). He built dams, and technical schools, and allowed European Businesses to enter the country as long as they contributed part of their profits to his treasury. This allowed for rapid modernization and development, especially as he also sent students to Europe in order to make sure that he had specialists who knew how his weapons worked.

Eventually, he managed to provoke a dispute between himself and the Governor of Syria (which included everything from Antioch to Jerusalem at this time), which he used as a cassus belli for rebelling against the Ottoman Empire and invading it, bringing it down to its knees with his new modernized army, which advanced almost to Constantinople itself until the West sent an ultimatum: Back down or be broken. When he refused, he met his first serious setback, with his forces and navy being defeated and being beaten back to Cicilia, where he managed to save his conquests by making hasty diplomatic concessions, including pledging loyalty to the Sultan in exchange for continued rulership of Southeastern Anatolia and the Levant.

As he reconsolidated his position, the next challenge was a rebellion in Palestine, where high taxes and loss of power caused both peasants and local elites to revolt against his rule. Crushing this rebellion with immense brutality (a dark side to his rule), Muhammad Ali rebuilt his modern army and navy, careful to deal delicately with the Europeans so that they do not interfere. During that time, he sent expeditions south to make sure the region of Sudan was under his thumb, providing valuable gold to further finance his modernization programs while securing the best possible education for his sons and grandsons.

His ambitions were temporarily held in check by his realization that the European Powers would brook no threat to the status quo in the Middle East, and so Muhammad Ali focused on Sudan and the Levant and their development. Sudan was both brutally pacified and searched for mineral resources, while Greater Syria's cities, including Jerusalem and Damascus, were put under the new central administration. Plans were also made to take advantage of Ethiopia's troubles to the south, as that country was still in civil war...

[DELETED32084]

@Letter BeeThe British aren't fans of anyone who wants to horn in on their state monopoly of monies so don't expect a lukewarm reception from us. Please also assume British hostility to you given your ship building program since the Mediterranean, and indeed all the worlds oceans, are considered ours.

[Letter Bee]

@Letter BeeThe British aren't fans of anyone who wants to horn in on their state monopoly of monies so don't expect a lukewarm reception from us. Please also assume British hostility to your given your ship building program since the Mediterranean, and indeed all the worlds oceans, are considered ours.

@Pagemaster

There's a reason I'm seeking a European patron, plus the French policy is to guarantee Egypt and the Ottoman Empire's territorial integrity.

Just make sure the hostility is purely IC; it's hard to tell tone over on the Internet.

[Yam I Am]

Question: Is it acceptable to ask for a preset relationship in this OOC Channel? I might decide to play Egypt after all, but I need one or two European patrons who are willing to tolerate Muhammad Ali's Egyptian Nationalism in exchange for relatively cheap Cotton and other goods...

Made a minor edit.

@Letter Bee

The Decembrist Government would have a keen interest in what Egypt would be up to since it adds a new dimension to Russia's southern borders. The Ottomans had been their historical rival in the region against places like the Crimean Khanate and Circassia and the two fought a whole lot of wars over the region. With Ottoman control over the Black Sea via the Bosporus, any geopoliticking in the region would be of heavy interest - in simple terms, a weaker Ottoman state is basically always a good thing to the Russians.

Persia would likewise be rising to prominence in the Middle East as a regional power but itself would be beset by the fact that it is surrounded on near all sides by 3 suspicious-to-outwardly-hostile Great Powers (i.e. Ottomans, Russia, and Great Britain). Anything that might draw intrigue away from them might be viewed more as a more positive development and if Egypt is in a position to nudge their way into Persian influence, all the better.

The Caucasian region at this time wasn't really in any centralized power and was often delegated to regional Khanates or kingdoms, and it wouldn't be until the 1860s OTL that the region would be incorporated firmly into Russia proper though establishment of governance channels (and whenever that failed, copious amounts of shooting people that definitely didn't build long-lasting blood feuds that go on even to this very day). So anything that might draw attention of dudes like Persia or the Ottomans elsewhere while the new government decides just what to do with these places would be very welcome.

So overall, the Decembrists and the Tsardom alike (insofar that his opinion matters for much longer) would have serious strategic interests in propping up Egypt as a potential power in the region to act as a check against both long-standing rivals (Ottomans & The UK) and rising powers (Persia) - how much help they can realistically provide is just sort of up in the air by this point.

[Letter Bee]

So, Russia and France are Egypt's main 'protectors of independence'. Perfect.

[Dinh AaronMk]

@Letter Bee

Do you need to make any additions to your application or is it pretty much set?

[Letter Bee]

@Letter Bee

Do you need to make any additions to your application or is it pretty much set?

@Dinh AaronMk

It's pretty much set, now that I have European patrons or quasi-patrons.

[Dinh AaronMk]

@Letter Bee

Then you're good to go and you can move the application to the character's section.

I will say though as a final comment to put it out there: I know Muhammad Ali can appear as "based and wholesome" for building a giant and independent Egyptian State, but keep in mind too the premise of the RP is eventually and currently rebellion and revolution in some form or another and the immense centralized regime of Muhammad Ali was racked by frequent major rebellion. His nationalization program made him the de facto landlord of all Egypt not seen in the region since the Pharaohs and in Islamic tradition that's not considered the best thing; worse than that he is at the end of the day an Albanian, outside of the regional politics of "I Know A Guy".

[Letter Bee]

@Letter Bee

Then you're good to go and you can move the application to the character's section.

I will say though as a final comment to put it out there: I know Muhammad Ali can appear as "based and wholesome" for building a giant and independent Egyptian State, but keep in mind too the premise of the RP is eventually and currently rebellion and revolution in some form or another and the immense centralized regime of Muhammad Ali was racked by frequent major rebellion. His nationalization program made him the de facto landlord of all Egypt not seen in the region since the Pharaohs and in Islamic tradition that's not considered the best thing; worse than that he is at the end of the day an Albanian, outside of the regional politics of "I Know A Guy".

@Dinh AaronMk

This is true. Of course, it's too early for the Assembly of Delegates, right?

Also, on phone due to a power outage. Cannot copy paste the sheet yet.

Edit: Pasted it.

[Dinh AaronMk]

I have meanwhile learned we should be entering into a massive continent - if not world - wide cholera outbreak at this time.

Russia should be the first afflicted Location if it traveled the same way before it spreads west to Europe and south into the Levant and Persia