♘Evolution vs. Creationism☼

[Gwazi Magnum]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
That's not what I said. I said they don't like to share some of their cultural traditions with the outside world.

You said they shouldn't be attacking the creationism theory because of their currently bad culture. I highlighted their skill bin science in the past gives then that right. But I probably should of argued the culture comment instead of showing their scientific skill.

First off, each country is a vast collection of individuals. Just because they're country is not doing well is no reason to claim they cannot have a mind of their own. By that logic no american should question what they're told because their country is terrible for debt and starting wars over oil.

If instead you meant China doesn't try converting people there for they shouldn't question the creationism theory I'd say its in fact the reverse. They are humble/respectful enough to not by trying to make others think like they do. Which the opposite of creationism which threatens people with eternal torture if they don't agree.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Magic Magnum said
You said they shouldn't be attacking the creationism theory because of their currently bad culture. I highlighted their skill bin science in the past gives then that right. But I probably should of argued the culture comment instead of showing their scientific skill.First off, each country is a vast collection of individuals. Just because they're country is not doing well is no reason to claim they cannot have a mind of their own. By that logic no american should question what they're told because their country is terrible for debt and starting wars over oil.If instead you meant China doesn't try converting people there for they shouldn't question the creationism theory I'd say its in fact the reverse. They are humble/respectful enough to not by trying to make others think like they do. Which the opposite of creationism which threatens people with eternal torture if they don't agree.

ActRaiserTheReturned said
Chinese history cannot be damning towards the Creation hypothesis. The Chinese don't exactly like to share their mythology/religions and the entirety of their culture with the rest of the world.

Please. Explain to me why you think that I was criticizing Chinese science/scientists?

[Gwazi Magnum]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
Please. Explain to me why you think that I was criticizing Chinese science/scientists?

I didn't. You were attacking their culture as a reason to not complain about creationism. I simply tried to prove that flase by highlighting their scientific experience.

But since that wasn't enough to convince you not to condemn a quarter of the worlds population from thinking for themselves I decided to then address your culture complaint more directly.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Magic Magnum said
I didn't. You were attacking their culture as a reason to not complain about creationism. I simply tried to prove that flase by highlighting their scientific experience.But since that wasn't enough to convince you not to condemn a quarter of the worlds population from thinking for themselves I decided to then address your culture complaint more directly.

Then please, explain to me how I was attacking their culture in any way.

[Gwazi Magnum]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
Then please, explain to me how I was attacking their culture in any way.

I already did. You said they never cared to be open on it. Therefore they shouldn't complain or question creationism.

Though now I'm just having to repeat stuff I said not even 10 minutes ago and my break is ending. So I'll leave it with this.

---

I don't care if your christian, Muslim, atheist etc or what theory for what made us you follow.

But you do NOT have the right to condemn or say that people should not question whatever it is you believe. They are individuals and have their own views.

And even if hypothetically you did have that right. Doing it because you dislike it disagree with the country they come from is both racist and generalizing.

Please do not ever say again that ________ does not have a right to question or disagree with __________.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

I already did. You said they never cared to be open on it. Therefore they shouldn't complain or question creationism.

I don't know why they aren't open on it, but I'm not saying they don't have a right to disagree. I'm just saying that from what I can see, they can't disprove it based on their records.

Please do not ever say again that ________ does not have a right to question or disagree with __________.

This is a misunderstanding, but I feel the need to just state that it is not a good thing to put words into someone's mouth just to shut them up.

[Brovo]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
Chinese history cannot be damning towards the Creation hypothesis. The Chinese don't exactly like to share their mythology/religions and the entirety of their culture with the rest of the world.

Irrelevant in the modern era. There's little that the world cannot learn if it chooses to at this point. Even from China.

Plus, ignoring China, there's still... The rest of the world. North America, Central America, South America, Europe at the time (ancient tribes), Africa, the rest of Asia, India, the Slavs, Mongols, Egypt...

The list could quite literally go on for hundreds of examples of histories that do not include a world-wide flood, leave alone one within the same time frame as the Biblical account. There's no geological evidence that it occurred. No sign of Noah's Ark, if it could even feasible exist in the first place...

To say that the Biblical account is in any way comparable or equal to the accounts of the rest of the planet is... Simply incorrect.

If it was -just- China versus the Biblical account, sure, I could totally see your argument, but it's not, when one looks at it.

Magic Magnum said
China in history was actually a big lead in science. Largely with the how well the kept records of discoveries and observations. Places like China and Arabia although not scientific power houses today were the ones to set the ground work for places like Europe to pick up from later.

Science =/= History.

ActRaiserTheReturned said
That's not what I said. I said they don't like to share some of their cultural traditions with the outside world.

^ That he did, but, then, cultural traditions doesn't always equal history either...

Magic Magnum said You said they shouldn't be attacking the creationism theory because of their currently bad culture.

...Whaaat? He said that nowhere... At all, in this thread. Uhm... Are you okay, Gwazi?

Magic Magnum said I highlighted their skill bin science in the past gives then that right.

Okay. Even if we did argue that science always equates to accurate history (two different subjects) it's still over like, what, three thousand years old and, at best, recorded on paper? It's a valid argument to say that it may not be 100% accurate. The Biblical account is invalidated when you take into account the entire planet basically going "no that didn't happen", if it was just China, then yes, one could argue it otherwise.

Magic Magnum said But I probably should of argued the culture comment instead of showing their scientific skill.

Joy.

Magic Magnum said First off, each country is a vast collection of individuals. Just because they're country is not doing well is no reason to claim they cannot have a mind of their own.

He still didn't claim this...

Magic Magnum said By that logic no american should question what they're told because their country is terrible for debt and starting wars over oil.

... No really, he didn't. Why is America now in this conversation? They didn't exist yet.

Magic Magnum said If instead you meant China doesn't try converting people there for they shouldn't question the creationism theory I'd say its in fact the reverse. They are humble/respectful enough to not by trying to make others think like they do.

China is to humble what murder is to preschool. Their philosophy in their country was "see it our way or die." They had several civil wars over this shit. It's one of the leading reasons why they didn't remain a superpower and ended up falling from grace before their recent return to power through industrialism.

But, again, one would know that if they knew their world history... ;)

Magic Magnum said Which the opposite of creationism which threatens people with eternal torture if they don't agree.

Creationism, while it is many stupid things, doesn't threaten people. Okay? Okay.

---

You're both being really silly right now. One of you is arguing that a single piece of wheat isn't enough to disprove something in a whole field of wheat, and the other one is saying to stop discriminating against apples. Just uh... Just stop. While you're ahead. :-3

[Gwazi Magnum]

Brovo said -snip-

There seems to be some clarification needing to be done, from both sides.

I wasn't saying Science = History.
I'm saying that some countries made some good scientific research/progress in the past. Countries who are not scientific leaders today.
But the progress those countries did make in the past, helped establish a framework of knowledge for future scientist to build on.

"Chinese history cannot be damning towards the Creation hypothesis. The Chinese don't exactly like to share their mythology/religions and the entirety of their culture with the rest of the world".

I might of glanced over the "Mythology/Religion" part of what he said too much. I focused mainly on the culture comment.
Basically the way I took his statement was the following...

"Chinese history cannot be damning towards the Creation hypothesis" = China can't argue against creationism.

"The Chinese don't exactly like to share their mythology/religions and the entirety of their culture with the rest of the world" = Because they not as vocal with their beliefs.

This may of been a misunderstanding on what he meant to say though.
Also, when I argued China being humble I wasn't referring to how they treat their own people. I figured that went without saying, it's common knowledge how ruthless and poorly they treat their citizens.
I was referring to Religions and such that stem from China, tend not to be the ones preaching loudly to covert others, or telling people they'll burn in hell for not believing.

I brought up America not in history sense. But as an example to highlight how ignorant it is to say "This country or people in it can't comment against ______ because I don't like the state of their country".
This being more in reference to him saying they can't be damning to creationism for their culture bit.

Also, Creationism does threaten people. It's called hell. Ever seen those comments like "If you don't confess you'll burn in hell" "I wish you burn in hell!" etc?
Hell is meant to be eternal torture, so when people say "Believe ______ or burn in hell" they are threatening them with torture.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

I brought up America not in history sense. But as an example to highlight how ignorant it is to say "This country or people in it can't comment against ______ because I don't like the state of their country".
This being more in reference to him saying they can't be damning to creationism for their culture bit.

Ah, well I think you understand by your last comments that's not what I was saying. I was more or less saying that I didn't know if the Chinese had records in their archives regarding a global flood or not. Also, as far as I know, they keep their early belief systems, religion and mythology confined to the actual country of China it'self, although immigrant's families from the 1800's might have some knowledge of the old traditions from the mainland.

What I meant to say, and I hope this is clear, is that China has it's own belief systems, and insofar as I know, foreigners find it extremely difficult to learn certain things about their religion and indigenous spiritual beliefs.

[Gwazi Magnum]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
Ah, well I think you understand by your last comments that's not what I was saying. I was more or less saying that I didn't know if the Chinese had records in their archives regarding a global flood or not. Also, as far as I know, they keep their early belief systems, religion and mythology confined to the actual country of China it'self, although immigrant's families from the 1800's might have some knowledge of the old traditions from the mainland. What I meant to say, and I hope this is clear, is that China has it's own belief systems, and insofar as I know, foreigners find it extremely difficult to learn certain things about their religion and indigenous spiritual beliefs.

Ah. I see what you're trying to say now.
Sorry for the confusion and any harsh feelings over that.

As for the now clarified version for what you were saying. I can admit that it can be difficult to understand a foreign belief system (or a lack of one. Making the change from Christian to Atheist for example also comes with crossing a lot of unfamiliar and scary territory). Though as for where China's beliefs rank on the options available? It doesn't seem any more complex than any other belief system. Just find out if they purely go by science, purely go by faith, or have a mix/combination of the two.

[Brovo]

Gwazi, Creationism doesn't have a hell. Creationism is a theory of the origins and state of life. Christianity has a hell.

The two are not the same thing. Treating them as the same thing just renders your arguments inane and incomprehensible. They are related to each other in that Creationism postulates its theory on the Bible mainly, but it has nothing to do with hell in the same way that you don't hold a firefighter responsible for the actions of the military. They both work for the government, but service entirely separate functions. Creationism and Christianity are part of the same ideological spectrum but service entirely different functions.

I hope that makes it clear to you in the future.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Brovo said
Gwazi, Creationism doesn't have a hell. Creationism is a theory of the origins and state of life. Christianity has a hell.The two are the same thing. Treating them as the same thing just renders your arguments inane and incomprehensible. They are related to each other in that Creationism postulates its theory on the Bible mainly, but it has nothing to do with hell in the same way that you don't hold a firefighter responsible for the actions of the military. They both work for the government, but service entirely separate functions. Creationism and Christianity are part of the same ideological spectrum but service entirely different functions.I hope that makes it clear to you in the future.

Good point.
I retract my statement on Creationism threatening people.

[Gwazi Magnum]

-Damn lag-

[Yog Sothoth]

interesting post, but it won't matter, atheism will be gone in about fifty years when the populations shift and Africa and the middle east become the dominant powers. religion has seen worse than most people can imagine and it's still here, so regardless of how much atheists insult or argue, faith and belief come naturally to us, it has been proven. also since when does something always have to be fact to be the right course of action? no one can make an absolute prediction, also science is mostly guess work and not always correct. religion is asking for people to trust in it and have belief in it. we as a species put faith in each other to do the right thing and are never always sure what the outcome of a decision is. my opinion, evolution is still believed because it has yet to be disproved, but for all we know it could be disproved in the next ten years. before you guys jump on me and call me a religious moron like many atheist jerks do, I'm not religious, I'm a philosopher and i laugh at how hypocritical atheists are nowadays by calling people stupid and retarded. it proves how hateful human beings who don't truly understand knowledge are and just use it to feel superior.

[Kadaeux]

Yog Sothoth said
interesting post, but it won't matter, atheism will be gone in about fifty years when the populations shift and Africa and the middle east become the dominant powers. religion has seen worse than most people can imagine and it's still here, so regardless of how much atheists insult or argue, faith and belief come naturally to us, it has been proven. also since when does something always have to be fact to be the right course of action? no one can make an absolute prediction, also science is mostly guess work and not always correct. religion is asking for people to trust in it and have belief in it. we as a species put faith in each other to do the right thing and are never always sure what the outcome a decision is. my opinion, evolution is still believed because it has yet to be disproved, but for all we know it could be disproved in the next ten years. before you guys jump on me and call me a religious moron like many atheist jerks do, I'm not religious, I'm a philosopher and i laugh at how hypocritical atheists are nowadays by calling people stupid and retarded. it proves how hateful human beings who don't truly understand knowledge are and just use it to feel superior.

Religion and Faith =/= Knowledge.

I mean did you even read what you wrote? If you're a philosopher I suggest you give it up because you're clearly terrible at articulating yourself, let alone even formatted.

Not to mention the ridiculous doomsaying "Africa and Middle East becoming dominant powers" nonsense.

[Darog the Badger God]

Yog Sothoth said
interesting post, but it won't matter, atheism will be gone in about fifty years when the populations shift and Africa and the middle east become the dominant powers. religion has seen worse than most people can imagine and it's still here, so regardless of how much atheists insult or argue, faith and belief come naturally to us, it has been proven. also since when does something always have to be fact to be the right course of action? no one can make an absolute prediction, also science is mostly guess work and not always correct. religion is asking for people to trust in it and have belief in it. we as a species put faith in each other to do the right thing and are never always sure what the outcome of a decision is. my opinion, evolution is still believed because it has yet to be disproved, but for all we know it could be disproved in the next ten years. before you guys jump on me and call me a religious moron like many atheist jerks do, I'm not religious, I'm a philosopher and i laugh at how hypocritical atheists are nowadays by calling people stupid and retarded. it proves how hateful human beings who don't truly understand knowledge are and just use it to feel superior.

Thank you for making me laugh so much.

[Yog Sothoth]

Kadaeux said
Religion and Faith =/= Knowledge.I mean did you even read what you wrote? If you're a philosopher I suggest you give it up because you're clearly terrible at articulating yourself, let alone even formatted.Not to mention the ridiculous doomsaying "Africa and Middle East becoming dominant powers" nonsense.

I'm calling bullshit on you saying I'm terrible at articulating myself. the Africa and Middle East theory could happen, you never know. once again I don't share your opinion and you insult me for it. hypocrite much?

[Yog Sothoth]

Darog the Badger God said
Thank you for making me laugh so much.

is that you saying I'm stupid?

[Darog the Badger God]

I don't think you understand how Science works. Don't worry, I wouldn't call you an idiot for it, just terribly misinformed.

I'm calling your post laughable, not stupid

[Brovo]

... Oh lord, where do I start.

Yog Sothoth said interesting post, but it won't matter, atheism will be gone in about fifty years

Evolution =/= Atheism. One is a scientific theory and the other is a personal belief about deities. Nice try though.

Yog Sothoth said when the populations shift and Africa and the middle east become the dominant powers.

Africa has never been a dominant power and the middle east will never be a dominant power in the near future. In fact, they are quite probably the most war torn, shitty places to live right now. There is no way in hell they'll make any kind of comeback in comparison to the western world. Just the United States alone could go toe to toe with all of them and win without having to land a single soldier on their lands. The European Union could do it without even having a noticeable impact on their own economy.

I have no idea where you think the middle east and Africa are even remotely credible. If you want to make population-based doomsaying nonsense, India and China kick the shit out the middle east and Africa, and they both will have serious old age problems in the next thirty years or so. Atop this, India's massive population is a massive problem for its ability to sustain itself.

So... Yeah. No. Not even close.

Yog Sothoth said religion has seen worse than most people can imagine and it's still here, so regardless of how much atheists insult or argue, faith and belief come naturally to us, it has been proven.

This is not a thread arguing about the validity of religion. It's a thread about two theories on the origins of life and how it works.

Yog Sothoth said also since when does something always have to be fact to be the right course of action?

...Since forever? You don't do something and call it right if you don't know it to be the right course of action... That's insane.

Yog Sothoth said no one can make an absolute prediction,

No one is trying.

Yog Sothoth said also science is mostly guess work and not always correct.

Science is based on the scientific theory. If you read some other posts of mine in this thread, you will find where I describe it in great detail. It is the closest method we have to identifying the truth of something.

Yog Sothoth said religion is asking for people to trust in it and have belief in it.

Faith, yes, which I already said you can't argue against the fortress of faith, but creationism isn't arguing as a faith-based argument: It's arguing as a science based argument and failing at it because it's not science.

Yog Sothoth said we as a species put faith in each other to do the right thing and are never always sure what the outcome of a decision is.

Trust. Yes. Blind trust though, will usually end with a dagger in your back. A certain amount of faith in others is healthy but total, blind faith is just as unhealthy as having none at all.

Yog Sothoth said my opinion, evolution is still believed because it has yet to be disproved, but for all we know it could be disproved in the next ten years.

Evolution is followed because it has the most evidence supporting it by and far and has for... Over a hundred years. As I said before the only theory I can think of more airtight than evolution at this point is the theory of gravity. Yes, we could find new information that totally shatters it in ten years. Unlikely, but totally possible, and science would adjust for that if it did occur, as it it is designed to do.

It's out to seek the truth. To find fact, not create things to be "worshiped". It dines on questions like fine cuisine to seek out answers. That is what it does. Because it does that we have things like airplanes and modern medicine and the Internet, so... Yeah. Go science!

Yog Sothoth said before you guys jump on me and call me a religious moron like many atheist jerks do,

Nobody in this thread called religious people "morons" or other derogatory terminology. You're the only one throwing dehumanizing shit on the wall mate.

Yog Sothoth said I'm not religious, I'm a philosopher

Philosophy and religion are not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination and to state that they are is uh... Well... It's just plain wrong. There have been religious philosophers, non-religious philosophers, philosophers with no particularly strong feelings about religion one way or the other, and so on... So... This statement is really... Yeah.

Yog Sothoth said and i laugh at how hypocritical atheists are nowadays

Whee dehumanization and generalization train taking this thread way off the wheels and into candyland, wheeee~

Yog Sothoth said by calling people stupid and retarded.

Nobody did that in this thread. That you totally didn't read. Like the enlightened person that you are.

Yog Sothoth said it proves how hateful human beings who don't truly understand knowledge are and just use it to feel superior.

If you were truly a philosopher, you would know that knowledge, save that which is physically derived and experienced, is subjective. There is no universal truth to a true philosopher... Not that it'll stop you from self-labeling yourself and doing the very thing you look down upon.

In the future, please read threads before posting in them. Thank you.