Let's B!tch. I feel it's a healthy release for our roleplay annoyances 2.0

[Dion]

<Snipped quote by Odin>

Pre-emptive apology but I can't help myself, I just had 8 different cakes and I'm loaded up on sugar. (you bet I'm using that excuse)

Um...erm...now not that I don't agree with you about that...but uh...

Didn't we previously have a conversation about the required steps needed for test posts? (And how that is also something not required, but is something added by a GM, as an extra test to judge worthy players.)

Was that a crack induced hallucination? Is everything real? ;-;

@SleepingSilence

Yes that was a discussion we had, except it was hoops that were clearly related to the RP (bio, history, personality sections, etcetera). Using a password doesn't actually add anything worthwhile. It just shows terrible GM-ing to me.

[Silver Carrot]

I have absolutely no issue with GMs putting the last rule of the OOC as "If you have read these rules, put this in your CS".

You'll be amazed how many people don't read the rules and get pissy when they get told off for breaking them as if 'How was I supposed to know the rules?'

[World Traveler]

@DeadbeatWalking

I am not denying that at all. When I was on here years ago that was a very standard practice and I was never denied for it. If that was the only reason then okay, but the feedback was I was missing a bunch of things so I figured I missed other hidden prompts and whatnot.

I used to be a GM and always found the hidden code to be a neat idea but in the end it didn't stop people from flaking. Rather it often seemed to add to the brain drain of getting it all set up and that meant people quitting before the role play even started.

Fun fact though - It was also the fact that I more or less found the writing prompt not by actually finding the code in the raw code form (Which is impossible on a phone) but I read everyone else and noticed a pattern.

Like I said I am rusty and it seems the culture of this website has shifted. I will just need to learn it again.

[World Traveler]

@Silver Carrot

But to hid so well that it almost is impossible to find seems just mean (Especially when the place they hid it is impossible to find when on the phone.

[Silver Carrot]

@World Traveler

No, it should be easy to find as long as you actually read the OOC. Hiding a password isn't a measure to exclude lazy people and nobody else. It's a measure to exclude almost everybody.

[SleepingSilence]

@Odin I mean I agree that there's at least a chance to make it practical and maybe even community building. Just that no one ever seems to utilize in anyway that's different from anyone else. It's just seems to be bandwagon decision with more adding passwords because "oh hey, that's a neat idea." I mean that has to be why I see so many people type out like 10-30 rules to follow that could be shortened to under ten easily. Because "long lists of rules make me seem super serious." At least that's sort of the vibe I get.

Hell, I'll even admit I'm part of the forum's "cultural" bandwagon. I never once color coded my work previously. Neither did anyone else, even though other roleplaying forums did have options to color text. But I do it now, even though it isn't really necessary. Some of the code is an effective way to format and change your writing to make the reading experience differ from a book. It's just bells and whistles, but I completely understand why people use it. Same with other things I see cropping up.

I just feel like you could make a slippery slope argument when it comes to this stuff. (though far less serious of any real problem.) But let's say someone had the bright idea to give people a 20 question English quiz, to test the user's comprehension skills or something. It pertains to reading and skill level right? (maybe a Lore question quiz to make it more topical. Doing a harry potter or naruto RP? Make a quiz about it!) Is that a good idea? I know it's a silly question. (unless you happen to agree. <.<) But I ask what's the limit of hoops a GM is allowed to add to something that at the end of the day is suppose to be fun?

Would you be okay with 10,000 word minimum test posts, that couldn't be used for the roleplay? (I ask because I was once forced to write thousands of words just to enter a 18+ section on a forum. So I can easily see people tacking on word lengths too. If that hasn't happened already.) If no, what limit is acceptable? Is one acceptable? Some people's threshold for tolerating wasted time may vary. If you can't use it for a roleplay, that's what it is...

It's the GM's choice at the end of the day, but it's also not surprising that I see so many roleplays never get off the ground and that also usually falls on the GM too...

(Just for clarification sake. I appreciate the work good GM's do. I've been one before and I'm well aware of the workload and even the forum's environment that likely makes your job harder. Sending love to those that as least try to be better and don't drop their own projects before anyone else does. <3)

[Little Bill]

I just got asked not to apply because I supposedly broke some rules that were hidden in the raw link text of the character sheet post.

@World Traveler

Of course. You're not denying it, you're just leaving that detail out, making up a more sympathetic reason for rejection (after being informed in very plain terms on the OOC) and owning up to it once I popped on this thread to point that out. My mistake. Anyway, I honestly don't think this is a matter of the site becoming less lenient towards people passing off the writing of others as their own. Every accepted character was accepted because they clearly read the rules, as evidenced by the quality of their sheets and correct writing sample. If you didn't find the writing sample, you didn't read the rules all the way.

Furthermore, it might be impossible to view raw text on your phone, but to say you can't view raw text on a phone is a sweeping overstatement.

[SleepingSilence]

I have absolutely no issue with GMs putting the last rule of the OOC as "If you have read these rules, put this in your CS".

You'll be amazed how many people don't read the rules and get pissy when they get told off for breaking them as if 'How was I supposed to know the rules?'

@Silver Carrot

My question to you, how important or useful was a password if you end up having almost no one that signed up catch it, so the person just accepts everyone anyway? This has already happened.

I'll admit I'm playing devil's advocate here, but newbies that switch forums likely didn't see/use passwords on other forums. So it might be a case of culture shock. I feel like if you put a password at all in your roleplaying, it should be inserted into the OOC text, which would prove they actually read it. Not buried in a hider in the CS. (which means they could still get the password, while skipping the OOC text.)

No, it should be easy to find as long as you actually read the OOC. Hiding a password isn't a measure to exclude lazy people and nobody else. It's a measure to exclude almost everybody.

@Silver Carrot

Also I can't tell if that was a Freudian slip through text. But those seem like contradictory statements. Is it easy to perform? Or is it meant to exclude almost everybody? And if both would that imply you don't have a lot of faith in the average forum user. :P I'd say it was a mistake (made twice in a row?) but you seem to imply/admit the password is a strong deterrent for most that share interest.

[ArenaSnow]

So, does anyone here actually use hidden passwords in a 'practical' setting for people to be accepted into a roleplay?

[SleepingSilence]

@ArenaSnow Well clearly yes. Because it wouldn't become a discussion otherwise. xP (Me personally, No.)

[Silver Carrot]

@SleepingSilence

Hiding a password in a hider or in the code is a deterrent. Putting a password in plain sight is totally different.

e.g.

"Rules:

-Don't do X
-Don't do Y
-Be nice to each other
-If you have read the rules, put your fave brand of chocolate at the bottom of your CS"

Doing that isn't a deterrent unless that person did not read the rules/the OOC

[SleepingSilence]

Hiding a password in a hider or in the code is a deterrent. Putting a password in plain sight is totally different.

Doing that isn't a deterrent unless that person did not read the rules/the OOC

@Silver Carrot

I mean...I was going off what you wrote, where you said it was meant to exclude almost everybody and that lazy people weren't the only ones to be punished by this. I'm not saying you couldn't put a password somewhere that is easy to find, I explained the optimal placement for a password, if one must have one...

But my questions of actual benefit (especially if just ignored by everyone, including the GM) are still left unanswered.

[Silver Carrot]

@SleepingSilence

Oh, I was complaining along with you. I wasn't trying to claim there was a benefit to hiding passwords

[Dion]

I have absolutely no issue with GMs putting the last rule of the OOC as "If you have read these rules, put this in your CS".

You'll be amazed how many people don't read the rules and get pissy when they get told off for breaking them as if 'How was I supposed to know the rules?'

@Silver Carrot

I'm not amazed. I'm a GM. I advise people on GMing and I run my own RP's. The point is that most often times people will disregard the rules - whether they read them or not - because they think its OK.

You know, putting a rule that says NO MARY SUES doesn't really help because when someone makes a Mary Sue, I'm 100% convinced they don't think it's a Mary Sue. Nobody sets out to write poorly. So, y'know, it doesn't even really help. It's the GM's job to look for quality and reasonableness and it's the players responsibility to try hard and be reasonable.

No amount of key phrases is going to make a poor writer a better writer.

That's why I abandon thread the moment I see a 'password.' I could go look for it but my inclusion of the password isn't going to make my CS better. However, one thing it does tell me is that the GM is lazy and can't be arsed to look for quality so looks for a catchphrase or password instead.

@Odin I mean I agree that there's at least a chance to make it practical and maybe even community building. Just that no one ever seems to utilize in anyway that's different from anyone else. It's just seems to be bandwagon decision with more adding passwords because "oh hey, that's a neat idea." I mean that has to be why I see so many people type out like 10-30 rules to follow that could be shortened to under ten easily. Because "long lists of rules make me seem super serious." At least that's sort of the vibe I get.

@SleepingSilence

You just can't seem to reasonably make a point without stepping over the boundaries of what is considered reasonable discussion right? I have a 'long' list of rules. On my 1x1, I have 12 do's and don'ts. Is that too much? Maybe that's the point - to weed out those who think I'm too demanding? The 'vibe' you get doesn't really seem based in reality. If you want feel free to point our 3-4 RP's that are active right now that do this.

Hell, I'll even admit I'm part of the forum's "cultural" bandwagon. I never once color coded my work previously. Neither did anyone else, even though other roleplaying forums did have options to color text. But I do it now, even though it isn't really necessary. Some of the code is an effective way to format and change your writing to make the reading experience differ from a book. It's just bells and whistles, but I completely understand why people use it. Same with other things I see cropping up.

@SleepingSilence

Irrelevant. I don't like the colors so I don't do it. That's my decision as an RPer. You don't have to follow this ''cultural bandwagon'' you talk about - that's a choice. That you follow along is your own problem, not mine. Doesn't even relate to the discussion because right from the start you misunderstood why people include rules and passwords and therefore your entire paragraph here is just not required.

I just feel like you could make a slippery slope argument when it comes to this stuff. (though far less serious of any real problem.) But let's say someone had the bright idea to give people a 20 question English quiz, to test the user's comprehension skills or something. It pertains to reading and skill level right? (maybe a Lore question quiz to make it more topical. Doing a harry potter or naruto RP? Make a quiz about it!) Is that a good idea? I know it's a silly question. (unless you happen to agree. <.<) But I ask what's the limit of hoops a GM is allowed to add to something that at the end of the day is suppose to be fun?

@SleepingSilence

Well, I don't think that's a good idea - people who don't know a lot about the setting can still be valuable assets. I've experienced this as I happened to run Naruto RP's for the longest time. As it so happens, a lot of non-Naruto watchers are good at roleplaying it with a helping hand.

That's the beauty of it - I never said I want passwords to be banned or disappear entirely. I said I abandon ship. People are free to put in passwords (or in this example, quizzes) but I just won't join. That they want to include it is their decision - and me not going along with is mine.

To answer your (stupid) question: a GM is allowed to add infinite hoops for players to jump through. That nobody will join is their problem, but they have the right to add as many or little hoops as they want. Saying otherwise is idiocy.

Would you be okay with 10,000 word minimum test posts, that couldn't be used for the roleplay?

@SleepingSilence

Yes. 10.000 words isn't that much for me, but I understand it is for others. It's irrelevant though - whether you wrote 10 or 10.000, the answer would be yes. And 100.000.000 would be a yes too. Because it's not my RP. I don't decide what the test post length is - I just have to fill it in. And you know, 'no' is an answer too. I can decide not to fill it in. Their loss. So yes I'm OK with it.

(I ask because I was once forced to write thousands of words just to enter a 18+ section on a forum. So I can easily see people tacking on word lengths too. If that hasn't happened already.)

@SleepingSilence

epic xd

If no, what limit is acceptable? Is one acceptable? Some people's threshold for tolerating wasted time may vary. If you can't use it for a roleplay, that's what it is...

@SleepingSilence

You asked that before and the answer is the same - any limit is acceptable. You decide yourself whether you want to jump through that hoop or not. Such as the case here - a hidden password. I'd not jump through that hoop but the hoop is acceptable.

It's the GM's choice at the end of the day, but it's also not surprising that I see so many roleplays never get off the ground and that also usually falls on the GM too...

@SleepingSilence

Did- did you just answer your own question? Did you just say it's the GM's choice? Jesus fucking christ. Why write me a 20.000 word essay about why it's unacceptable only to answer your own question. Really, I mean this in the best way possible. Get some fucking help.

(Just for clarification sake. I appreciate the work good GM's do. I've been one before and I'm well aware of the workload and even the forum's environment that likely makes your job harder. Sending love to those that as least try to be better and don't drop their own projects before anyone else does. <3)

@SleepingSilence

Now this, this is just gay. Sending love to people? Jesus christ.

<Snipped quote by World Traveler>

Of course. You're not denying it, you're just leaving that detail out, making up a more sympathetic reason for rejection (after being informed in very plain terms on the OOC) and owning up to it once I popped on this thread to point that out. My mistake. Anyway, I honestly don't think this is a matter of the site becoming less lenient towards people passing off the writing of others as their own. Every accepted character was accepted because they clearly read the rules, as evidenced by the quality of their sheets and correct writing sample. If you didn't find the writing sample, you didn't read the rules all the way.

Furthermore, it might be impossible to view raw text on your phone, but to say you can't view raw text on a phone is a sweeping overstatement.

@DeadbeatWalking

It should be possible on any phone so said person might just be talking out of their ass. Also, even if view raw is impossible, it should still be visible by quoting the post. But fucking still - how do these people subtract GM character sheet code if not by viewing the raw code or quoting it? Do they mimic the code by hand? This reeks of either talking out of ass or insanity. Maybe both.

[ArenaSnow]

Color coded dialogue.

Tried it once. Waste of time. Read my content and you will see the words just fine. It doesn't make it any easier for me to read, and I consider muddling through the color tags to be an inconvenience - thus, not worthwhile.

Only thing color codes do with me is occasionally fuck with my vision because people can't consider what dark ___ does on various screens.

[SleepingSilence]

@Silver Carrot

I see. Didn't realize. I feel like I was unintentionally stabbed. XD (pre-apology for being included in this.)

1. You just can't seem to reasonably make a point without stepping over the boundaries of what is considered reasonable discussion right? I have a 'long' list of rules. On my 1x1, I have 12 do's and don'ts. Is that too much? Maybe that's the point - to weed out those who think I'm too demanding? The 'vibe' you get doesn't really seem based in reality. If you want feel free to point our 3-4 RP's that are active right now that do this.

2. Irrelevant. I don't like the colors so I don't do it. That's my decision as an RPer. You don't have to follow this ''cultural bandwagon'' you talk about - that's a choice. That you follow along is your own problem, not mine. Doesn't even relate to the discussion because right from the start you misunderstood why people include rules and passwords and therefore your entire paragraph here is just not required.

3. Well, I don't think that's a good idea - people who don't know a lot about the setting can still be valuable assets. I've experienced this as I happened to run Naruto RP's for the longest time. As it so happens, a lot of non-Naruto watchers are good at roleplaying it with a helping hand.

That's the beauty of it - I never said I want passwords to be banned or disappear entirely. I said I abandon ship. People are free to put in passwords (or in this example, quizzes) but I just won't join. That they want to include it is their decision - and me not going along with is mine.

To answer your (stupid) question: a GM is allowed to add infinite hoops for players to jump through. That nobody will join is their problem, but they have the right to add as many or little hoops as they want. Saying otherwise is idiocy.

4 Yes. 10.000 words isn't that much for me, but I understand it is for others. It's irrelevant though - whether you wrote 10 or 10.000, the answer would be yes. And 100.000.000 would be a yes too. Because it's not my RP. I don't decide what the test post length is - I just have to fill it in. And you know, 'no' is an answer too. I can decide not to fill it in. Their loss. So yes I'm OK with it.

epic xd

5. You asked that before and the answer is the same - any limit is acceptable. You decide yourself whether you want to jump through that hoop or not. Such as the case here - a hidden password. I'd not jump through that hoop but the hoop is acceptable.

6. Did- did you just answer your own question? Did you just say it's the GM's choice? Jesus fucking christ. Why write me a 20.000 word essay about why it's unacceptable only to answer your own question. Really, I mean this in the best way possible. Get some fucking help.

7. Now this, this is just gay. Sending love to people? Jesus christ.

@Odin

@Odin

Stop taking unpersonal things personal...(and a more personal and rhetorical question. Do you separate a hundred times because you think it's good writing structure?)

1. It's strange to deny the reality of people having too many rules when you yourself admit to putting 24 of them in a 1x1 section, on purpose to be selective...

But I would happily PM you many examples of roleplays that have unnecessarily long rule sets. But not on the thread itself to spread drama, because that's never my intention. I also sadly don't fully trust you not to try to stir up trouble if I did provide examples. You don't have to take my word for it, maybe just look through the forum yourself when you have the time.

2. It wasn't complaining. It was relevant to things I only see this forum do and do more frequently because of the intent to copy others. My point was I'm specifically not demonizing people for doing what they feel like. If you had nothing to add, you didn't need to reply to it.

3. I'd say I appreciate the consistency, but you were just talking about a single password being too much of a hurdle. But I agree you have the right do it and have nobody join as a result. (also why are you using periods for numbers? Never mind, it's not important.)

4. Semantics, but I didn't ask the same question in that case. You jumped ahead of my question with a more broad answer that happened to fill the next questions.

5. I agree that the idea isn't a good one. Though thanks for adding that (stupid/idiot) part again. But the question never was can they. It was should they? Hopefully you notice the difference. <.<

6. See #5. And also, because you can't be respectful, I warned you already and you still wish to be personal. You're goddamn thick, if you couldn't tell I was speaking hypothetically and childish as fuck for persisting with this shitty attitude you keep presenting. Grow up.

7. See #6. Last sentence.

>Note to self: Read whole post before replying, so you stop acting respectively halfway through only to see the rest and go..."oh..."

[Dion]

Color coded dialogue.

Tried it once. Waste of time. Read my content and you will see the words just fine. It doesn't make it any easier for me to read, and I consider muddling through the color tags to be an inconvenience - thus, not worthwhile.

Only thing color codes do with me is occasionally fuck with my vision because people can't consider what dark ___ does on various screens.

@ArenaSnow

... the man with the grey signature said.

Stop taking unpersonal things personal...(and a more personal and rhetorical question. Do you separate a hundred times because you think it's good writing structure?)

@SleepingSilence

I'm not taking anything personal - I just think you are an idiot, with idiot arguments, and I carefully explained why I think they are idiot arguments, so that you may understand and counter, yet here we are, and you have failed to even understand me. I separate because you make a thousand and one unrelated points and then answer your own questions.

1. It's strange to deny the reality of people having too many rules when you yourself admit to putting 24 of them in a 1x1 section, on purpose to be selective...

@SleepingSilence

No, 12 do's and don'ts, not 12 do's and 12 don'ts. More over I don't think having 12 rules in total is too many. That's subjective. So, riddle me this - are you imposing your view of what is 'too much' or whether or not 'being selective' is bad? Maybe both? Regardless that is not the point - the point is you are fundamentally misunderstanding why people make these rules. Whether it is to weed out people, to give some rule redundancy, whether to remind people of RPG's standard rules, or to just give them something to point at when removing someone from an RP/blocking their application.

Whichever combination of those it is, I can guarantee you people do not write rules because 'hehe everyone do it so if i do im cool and ppl think amma serious :)' like you proposed.

But I would happily PM you many examples of roleplays that have unnecessarily long rule sets. But not on the thread itself to spread drama, because that's never my intention. I also sadly don't fully trust you not to try to stir up trouble if I did provide examples. You don't have to take my word for it, maybe just look through the forum yourself when you have the time.

@SleepingSilence

No, I clearly do not share your idea of what are too many rules therefore I could never 'look for it myself' - I am asking you to show me what you think are RP's that have 'too many rules.' Do it in PM or here, I couldn't care less. In return I'll ask those people why they made as many rules as they did. If your above argument is anything to go by, the answer will surprise you.

2. It wasn't complaining. It was relevant to things I only see this forum do and do more frequently because of the intent to copy others. My point was I'm specifically not demonizing people for doing what they feel like. If you had nothing to add, you didn't need to reply to it.

@SleepingSilence

No, no. There is no cultural bandwagon. There is only people doing things, and people looking and it and copying it. I'm saying you don't have to do it. It's an option - a choice - a decision. You deciding to do something is about as relevant to the discussion as me deciding to take a poop in the morning - I either do it or don't. But whatever I pick, it's my own responsibility to choose. Just like it's yours - and just as it's the GM's to include rules.

3. I'd say I appreciate the consistency, but you were just talking about a single password being too much of a hurdle. But I agree you have the right do it and have nobody join as a result. (also why are you using periods for numbers? Never mind, it's not important.)

@SleepingSilence

It is not a hurdle, I never called it a hurdle. I called it a loop - it's something for me to jump through, not over. The difference to me is that a hurdle is something I need to overcome where as a password isn't some sort of challenge, it's a poor man's hurdle. It's just a trick I need to do to show the GM I can read rules. I don't really enjoy that kind of things for reasons I explained rather precisely before. Either you are not reading, or passively ignoring what I write.

And I use periods instead of comma's because that's something that is different between the USA and the Netherlands.

4. Semantics, but I didn't ask the same question in that case. You jumped ahead of my question with a more broad answer that happened to fill the next questions.

@SleepingSilence

No, you did ask that same question - you just rephrased it to be a different case. The essence is the same. Is the answer supposed to change when you exchange 'quiz' for '10.000 word essay'?

5. I agree that the idea isn't a good one. Though thanks for adding that (stupid/idiot) part again. But the question never was can they. It was should they? Hopefully you notice the difference. <.<

@SleepingSilence

That much wasn't clear from your post but the answer still doesn't change because I didn't say 'can' they, I said they should do whatever the fuck they feel like and bear the consequences there of. Bitching about hidden passwords is all fine and well but ultimately it's the GM's decision. And I am saying now the GM should do whatever the fuck they want to ensure that the people who join their RP pass their little exam that is supposed to show that these RPers are proper little good bois.

That the design of a password-test is ultimately very unproductive and stupid is one thing but for that you'd have to ask another question entirely.

6. See #5. And also, because you can't be respectful, I warned you already and you still wish to be personal. You're goddamn thick, if you couldn't tell I was speaking hypothetically and childish as fuck for persisting with this shitty attitude you keep presenting. Grow up.

7. See #6. Last sentence.

>Note to self: Read whole post before replying, so you stop acting respectively halfway through only to see the rest and go..."oh..."

@SleepingSilence

Consider doing;

(and a more personal and rhetorical question. Do you separate a hundred times because you think it's good writing structure?)

not because it is good writing structure but because I can't figure out what the fuck you're trying to respond to telling me to grow up.

[ArenaSnow]

<Snipped quote by ArenaSnow>

... the man with the grey signature said.

@Odin

The man who said "dark ___" said.

Covered my bases, you see.

:>

If I want to be serious, my sig is intentionally designed so it is not, in fact, the focus of a post. If my sig draws more attention than my post, the fuck am I even posting for. There's nothing of value in it, with the exception of Satanism.

Thus, main content gets visual priority over the post. I don't expect people to read my sig every time. I feel differently when I explain something, or want people to take in my shitposting words.

[Dion]

<Snipped quote by Odin>

The man who said "dark ___" said.

Covered my bases, you see.

:>

@ArenaSnow

still too dark damnit

[SleepingSilence]

And I use periods instead of comma's because that's something that is different between the USA and the Netherlands.

@Odin

My nice, rude and curious reply all at the same time.

Nice: Yeah I figured, that's why I crossed it out.
Rude: Rhetorical means question I don't want an answer to.
Curious: Are you actually autistic? Why can you speak casually sometimes, but flip shit at other equally innocuous sentences?

I'm not taking anything personal - I just think you are an idiot, with idiot arguments, and I carefully explained why I think they are idiot arguments.

@Odin

Because I can't figure out what the fuck you're trying to respond to telling me to grow up.

@Odin

Because you're blind.

Because you're the fucking idiot.

Because there's a smudge on your screen.

No, I'll go with look at my obvious numbering on your own quotes that I made for easy reference to which paragraph/sentence I was talking about. Though growing up in general would be a nice start. This is my last reply, because I don't feel like debating with someone without a hint of self-awareness.