[OOC] Myriad Reality

[DarkwolfX37]

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[Valiance]

<Snipped quote by Galaxy Raider>

I would never deny that that is the absolute best way to discourage someone from being immortal. Certainly, to convert someone to God is much better than just stopping someone from doing wrong! But we can't always take the best way. I mean, if God always took the best way to save people, then nobody would ever go through hardships to be saved, because God might just show them a vision, or something that would change their mind, or whatever else. It would be awesome if we could take what we saw as the best way, and use that effectively for everyone. But the problem is that we just can't. People are different, and, therefore, they require different methods, so we should take all reasonable avenues to discourage them from immorality.

God punishes immorality.
We do not wish for others to be punished.
If we do not wish for others to be punished, then we should discourage them from immorality in the best way we can.
God uses different ways to save people, because a way that works on one person may not work on another.
So to discourage someone from immorality, we must take the way that works best for them.
We cannot know what way works best for someone.
Therefore, we must take the best ways we know of, to discourage the most people.
One possible way is to convert them to Christ.
Another way is to put into effect laws that punish immorality (as proved by my previous argument).
Because both of these work, then we should put both into effect, to discourage the most people.

@Mammalia

It's our job to take the best way. And, in the end, if we can't convince someone to convert, then what is the point in punishing them anyways? If they are a lost cause, and they want to harm themselves, then why should we, as people, punish them? It's a fruitless effort. No matter how much right or wrong someone does, if they don't believe, their fate is the same.

[Mammalia]

<Snipped quote by Disdain>

LB: These bullets were meant to cripple Lizbeth. Fortunately, they aren't bound to her presence.
*Shoots the barrier, but a tear opens and the bullet exits on the other side, opening another tear immediately before it hits Nova's barrier and opens on the inside*

@Webmaster

Wait, I thought I said that teleportation (and, by extension, portals) doesn't work inside the barrier. How is this working?

[Valiance]

@Mammalia

*Does a jig*

[DarkwolfX37]

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[Mammalia]

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

It's our job to take the best way. And, in the end, if we can't convince someone to convert, then what is the point in punishing them anyways? If they are a lost cause, and they want to harm themselves, then why should we, as people, punish them? It's a fruitless effort. No matter how much right or wrong someone does, if they don't believe, their fate is the same.

@Valiance

But this relies on a false premise--that is, if we can't convince someone to convert, then they are a lost cause. Often, it is not our words that will turn someone to Christ, but the circumstances that they find themselves in. God may use providence to save someone, or he may use punishment or hard times. So if we cannot convert someone, then we must find another way to discourage them, and that may be punishments. Consider these verses:
Romans 13:1-3a: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. ..."
TL;DR: We must be subject to governing authorities, which are sent from God. That is not my point quite yet--just a premise we can both agree on, because it's in the Bible.

1 Peter 2:13-14: "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good."
Now, you may say to this that the institutions are human, and you could interpret "him" as the emperor, although I wouldn't expect you to, so let me refer you to one last verse to drive my point home.

Deuteronomy 16:18: “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment."
Here, God explicitly appoints governmental officers to judge the people--a verse that combines the points of the previous two. When laws are produced that honour morality and punish immorality, then they must have been ordained by God.

So, at the last, I will continue Romans 13:1-3 with verse 5: "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer." Like I said, God punishes people--and the main way He does so is through the law. These statements can't be interpreted any other way, even in full context. They say what they mean and they mean what they say.

[Mammalia]

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

HOLD.
"God punishes immorality.
We do not wish for others to be punished.
If we do not wish for others to be punished, then we should discourage them from immorality in the best way we can."
You cannot say that when you're arguing that humans should punish other humans for being immoral, especially when you believe they'll be punished again, and worse, for the same offense.

@DarkwolfX37

especially when you believe they'll be punished again, and worse, for the same offense.

"But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer." Like I said, God punishes people--and the main way He does so is through the law.

@Mammalia

[Valiance]

<Snipped quote by Valiance>

But this relies on a false premise--that is, if we can't convince someone to convert, then they are a lost cause. Often, it is not our words that will turn someone to Christ, but the circumstances that they find themselves in. God may use providence to save someone, or he may use punishment or hard times. So if we cannot convert someone, then we must find another way to discourage them, and that may be punishments. Consider these verses:
Romans 13:1-3a: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. ..."
TL;DR: We must be subject to governing authorities, which are sent from God. That is not my point quite yet--just a premise we can both agree on, because it's in the Bible.

1 Peter 2:13-14: "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good."
Now, you may say to this that the institutions are human, and you could interpret "him" as the emperor, although I wouldn't expect you to, so let me refer you to one last verse to drive my point home.

Deuteronomy 16:18: “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment."
Here, God explicitly appoints governmental officers to judge the people--a verse that combines the points of the previous two. When laws are produced that honour morality and punish immorality, then they must have been ordained by God.

So, at the last, I will continue Romans 13:1-3 with verse 5: "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer." Like I said, God punishes people--and the main way He does so is through the law. These statements can't be interpreted any other way, even in full context. They say what they mean and they mean what they say.

@Mammalia

But my point is that if they are meant to be punished, then they will be. But it's not inherently humanity's job to punish each other. If God does it through us, then so be it. That's what your final verse is talking about. But you have to understand how imperfect our system is, how often people get punished by our system when they have genuinely done nothing to constitute the punishment. Our laws are in place to justify punishment, and it is far from perfect. In a way, it is our form of having people go out of their way to "deal justice." In reality, we can never tell these days from just looking at it if the punishment our system executes is truly a punishment from God or simply a misunderstanding caused by human imperfection and unfortunate circumstance.

In short, what I am trying to say is that, on top of everything else that I have said, we cannot reliably consider our own government or others to be consistently dealing with things the way God wants 100% of the time. I hope I articulated this little bit well enough, I had a hard time putting it into words.

[souleaterfan320]

I'll post when I get home.

[Mammalia]

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

But my point is that if they are meant to be punished, then they will be. But it's not inherently humanity's job to punish each other. If God does it through us, then so be it. That's what your final verse is talking about. But you have to understand how imperfect our system is, how often people get punished by our system when they have genuinely done nothing to constitute the punishment. Our laws are in place to justify punishment, and it is far from perfect. In a way, it is our form of having people go out of their way to "deal justice." In reality, we can never tell these days from just looking at it if the punishment our system executes is truly a punishment from God or simply a misunderstanding caused by human imperfection and unfortunate circumstance.

In short, what I am trying to say is that, on top of everything else that I have said, we cannot reliably consider our own government or others to be consistently dealing with things the way God wants 100% of the time. I hope I articulated this little bit well enough, I had a hard time putting it into words.

@Valiance

That... Is, actually, a really good point. Our government is growing increasingly amoral. But what I don't think we should do is get rid of the laws that are already there, because they can still be used by God. God directs the whole world so that He might give each person all the chances that He can give, and we can reasonably assume that the laws already in place are used by God as punishment. And when someone is unfairly punished, God promises to provide for them. If we get rid of the laws, then we remove an avenue used by God (although it's not like that hinders Him).

This point was significantly harder to articulate than my previous points, and I'm not sure if I got it out right, but I'm going to be leaving for discipleship, so I won't be able to post any more today. This was good, though. =D

[Nimda]

@DarkwolfX37
Only comment is to check your studies.

<Snipped quote by Webmaster>

Wait, I thought I said that teleportation (and, by extension, portals) doesn't work inside the barrier. How is this working?

@Mammalia

He's peeling back the barrier layers one by one in that small spot.

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

But my point is that if they are meant to be punished, then they will be. But it's not inherently humanity's job to punish each other. If God does it through us, then so be it. That's what your final verse is talking about. But you have to understand how imperfect our system is, how often people get punished by our system when they have genuinely done nothing to constitute the punishment. Our laws are in place to justify punishment, and it is far from perfect. In a way, it is our form of having people go out of their way to "deal justice." In reality, we can never tell these days from just looking at it if the punishment our system executes is truly a punishment from God or simply a misunderstanding caused by human imperfection and unfortunate circumstance.

In short, what I am trying to say is that, on top of everything else that I have said, we cannot reliably consider our own government or others to be consistently dealing with things the way God wants 100% of the time. I hope I articulated this little bit well enough, I had a hard time putting it into words.

@Valiance

Which is why I support a theocracy with laws entirely dependent on God's laws. Incorruptible and always applicable.

[Mammalia]

<Snipped quote by Valiance>

Then let's balance them!

@Spiritblitz

Serenity's not in the mindscape with Ridge and Misty.

[Mammalia]

byeeeeeee

[DarkwolfX37]

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[DarkwolfX37]

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[DarkwolfX37]

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[DarkwolfX37]

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[DarkwolfX37]

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[Host]

<Snipped quote by Nimda>

When you don't quote I have no fucking idea what you're trying to say.

Yes they are, no they aren't. That there are different sects shows that. Not to mention when verses contradict, and the 2000+ years of copy and language error.

@DarkwolfX37

Not when they're gigantic.

Do you really want to start this?

[DarkwolfX37]

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