[OOC] Myriad Reality

[Nimda]

<Snipped quote by Nimda>

If the person wants to hurt themselves, then it's up to us to try to help, bot force our help upon them.

Legal wrong and right and moral wrong and right are two different things. Legal wrong and right is forever changing, but moral, as you say, is static. And as far as legal wrong and right go, I feel that if you did not hurt someone or damage/take their property, then it shouldn't be against the law.

In the same boat, moral wrong and right are not dictated by the government, you're right. But legal right is at the government's discretion.

@Galaxy Raider

I disagree.

Draw the line between legal and moral and provide a basis for that conclusion.

[Galaxy Raider]

<Snipped quote by Galaxy Raider>

I disagree.

Draw the line between legal and moral and provide a basis for that conclusion.

@Nimda

You can't draw a line between them because they overlap in some cases. Just as all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares, all legal rights/wrongs should be moral rights/wrongs, but not all moral rights/wrongs should be legal rights/wrongs.

Legal Wrong = Moral wrong that hurts another
Legal wrong = Moral wrong that negatively affects another person's property.

[Nimda]

<Snipped quote by Nimda>

You can't draw a line between them because they overlap in some cases. Just as all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares, all legal rights/wrongs should be moral rights/wrongs, but not all moral rights/wrongs should be legal rights/wrongs.

Legal Wrong = Moral wrong that hurts another
Legal wrong = Moral wrong that negatively affects another person's property.

@Galaxy Raider

"Draw the line" means to define it. Even if they overlap, you can draw the lines that intersect.

How did you arrive at this conclusion other than what you personally want to believe? Upon what basis do you derive this belief?

[Galaxy Raider]

<Snipped quote by Galaxy Raider>

"Draw the line" means to define it. Even if they overlap, you can draw the lines that intersect.

How did you arrive at this conclusion other than what you personally want to believe? Upon what basis do you derive this belief?

@Nimda

Draw the Line: set a limit on what one is willing to do or accept, beyond which one will not go. I was thinking in the context of this definition. I basically thought you were saying "Pick one."

Logic. It just seems incredibly illogical to me to use Christian-established rights and wrongs for people who don't even follow the Christian faith. This is especially so if you are trying to convert people, as people today are like stray dogs. You bring them in by being gentle, not by chasing them down, catching them, and throwing them in a cage.

[Mammalia]

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

If you ask me, I'd say to either offer no disclaimer or offer no biblical references. Stand strong in one belief or another.

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

No hype.

For the record, I'm tired and cynical right now. Keep that in mind if anyone is bothered by what I say.

@Nimda

I suppose you're right.

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

I know. That's why I say that I agree with you morally. I just think it is also immoral to force people to live lifestyles based on a religion a lot of people don't believe in. I feel that if God doesn't force us to believe, then why should we? I feel it's kind of putting ourselves on a higher pedestal.

(Insert your disclaimer here)

@Galaxy Raider

But in the end, our laws come from the morals of the nation. If the majority of the nation holds to the morality that the use of drugs is wrong, then the laws they make will reflect that.

Morality is absolute, like David said--and, therefore, immorality should be punished. If the majority of a nation considers that something is immoral, then, naturally, it will do what it can to make sure the immoral minority cannot practise their immorality. And such a thing will be right in the eyes of the nation. Therefore, we have no right to deride the government for punishing immorality when we ourselves believe such things to be wrong.

Finally, God punishes immorality, whether or not he forces us to believe. If you do wrong, you will eventually be punished for your wrongdoing, and if God wishes to use the laws of the nation to do so, who are we to argue?

[Galaxy Raider]

<Snipped quote by Nimda>

I suppose you're right.

<Snipped quote by Galaxy Raider>

But in the end, our laws come from the morals of the nation. If the majority of the nation holds to the morality that the use of drugs is wrong, then the laws they make will reflect that.

Morality is absolute, like David said--and, therefore, immorality should be punished. If the majority of a nation considers that something is immoral, then, naturally, it will do what it can to make sure the immoral minority cannot practise their immorality. And such a thing will be right in the eyes of the nation. Therefore, we have no right to deride the government for punishing immorality when we ourselves believe such things to be wrong.

Finally, God punishes immorality, whether or not he forces us to believe. If you do wrong, you will eventually be punished for your wrongdoing, and if God wishes to use the laws of the nation to do so, who are we to argue?

@Mammalia

And the purpose for our democracy is to let even the minority to express how they feel the government should execute its actions. I feel the way I do, and that's fine even though I may not be in the majority. I'm not exactly flipping out over here because people get arrested for using marijuana, but this is how I feel.

If a person needs punished, God will find a way to punish them without the state's involvement. It's not like it is a necessity for the state to do so. I'm not arguing with God, I'm arguing with my fellow humans.

[Nimda]

Possibly getting a 700 dollar item for less than 200 dollars. I'll get back to you all soon, when it's done.

[souleaterfan320]

Guys, I want to apologize for my incompetence and for being ignorant. I've done a lot of thinking and concluded that I should not participate in debates due to the fact that I am very uneducated and 'blissfully ignorant' as my father put it. He was right.

[Galaxy Raider]

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

If you ask me, I'd say to either offer no disclaimer or offer no biblical references. Stand strong in one belief or another.

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

No hype.

For the record, I'm tired and cynical right now. Keep that in mind if anyone is bothered by what I say.

@Nimda

I'm actually enjoying myself. I don't often get the chance to discuss like this.

[Galaxy Raider]

Possibly getting a 700 dollar item for less than 200 dollars. I'll get back to you all soon, when it's done.

@Nimda

Awesomeness!

Guys, I want to apologize for my incompetence and for being ignorant. I've done a lot of thinking and concluded that I should not participate in debates due to the fact that I am very uneducated and 'blissfully ignorant' as my father put it. He was right.

@souleaterfan320

Don't say that. You're only as uneducated as you let yourself be, and just because you think you are uneducated doesn't mean you're incapable of learning. And don't feel afraid to put your two cents in, regardless of how "uneducated" you feel. The point of debating, at least for me, is to learn.

[Mammalia]

Logic. It just seems incredibly illogical to me to use Christian-established rights and wrongs for people who don't even follow the Christian faith. This is especially so if you are trying to convert people, as people today are like stray dogs. You bring them in by being gentle, not by chasing them down, catching them, and throwing them in a cage.

@Galaxy Raider

I will use again the point that God punishes immorality. We, as Christians, know that God punishes immorality, and even if we're not trying to convert a person, we do want them to still realise that what they do is wrong--or, at least, try not to do it. And what is the best way to prevent a person from doing wrong without converting them or convincing them? Make laws that punish wrongdoing. Therefore people will be discouraged from doing wrong, and if they still do wrong, then they will be punished, as would happen anyway.

Let me put it in a logical ladder:
God punishes immorality.
We do not wish for others to be punished.
If one does not want to be punished, then they should not be immoral.
If we do not want others to be punished, then we should discourage them from being immoral.
Laws that punish immorality discourage people from being immoral.
Therefore, if we do not want others to be punished for immorality, then we should put into place laws that punish immorality.
I can extend this argument to show that, despite the existence of other methods to discourage people from being immoral, this is an avenue we should take.

[Mammalia]

By the way, Jacob, you never responded to Arthur's mindscape post with Ridge. I think David's waiting on that before he posts with Misty. Or alternatively you all completely forgot about it.

[DarkwolfX37]

\

[Galaxy Raider]

<Snipped quote by Galaxy Raider>

I will use again the point that God punishes immorality. We, as Christians, know that God punishes immorality, and even if we're not trying to convert a person, we do want them to still realise that what they do is wrong--or, at least, try not to do it. And what is the best way to prevent a person from doing wrong without converting them or convincing them? Make laws that punish wrongdoing. Therefore people will be discouraged from doing wrong, and if they still do wrong, then they will be punished, as would happen anyway.

Let me put it in a logical ladder:
God punishes immorality.
We do not wish for others to be punished.
If one does not want to be punished, then they should not be immoral.
If we do not want others to be punished, then we should discourage them from being immoral.
Laws that punish immorality discourage people from being immoral.
Therefore, if we do not want others to be punished for immorality, then we should put into place laws that punish immorality.
I can extend this argument to show that, despite the existence of other methods to discourage people from being immoral, this is an avenue we should take.

@Mammalia

That is exactly what runs people off. Why not convince or try to convert? Why just jump to laws and punishments? Yes, I get that God punishes, but the state does not have to be the medium for the punishment. Why should it? And, again, punishing people for actions that they themselves do not believe is wrong is inefficient. The best way to prevent them from doing wrong is to make them understand why it is wrong, not smack them on the hand and say "bad boy" then leave them to their fate. And if, as you admit, the punishment would happen anyways, then way do it in a way that scares off so many of the lost?

God punishes immorality.
We do not wish for others to be punished.
If we do not want others to be punished, we must teach then not to be immoral.
To do this, we should do our job as Christians and try to save more souls, and leave God's job to Him instead of doing it ourselves.
Convincing someone to follow the Christian Faith helps them see why something is immoral.
The best way to keep someone from doing wrong is to help them understand why the action is wrong.
Therefore, if we do not want others to be punished for immorality, we must guide them to the light instead of chasing them into or just leaving them in the darkness.

[Galaxy Raider]

By the way, Jacob, you never responded to Arthur's mindscape post with Ridge. I think David's waiting on that before he posts with Misty. Or alternatively you all completely forgot about it.

@Mammalia

I was waiting on him. To be fair, Ridge wasn't originally present physically, so I was contemplating whether or not to just roll with it.

[Mammalia]

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

I was waiting on him. To be fair, Ridge wasn't originally present physically, so I was contemplating whether or not to just roll with it.

@Galaxy Raider

Arthur would have traced the illusion and pulled the actual Ridge in.

[Nimda]

Okay, I just picked up two GTX 980 ti cards for a total of $330, as long as they don't cancel on me. I'm just going to say that I stand behind Jonny's arguments, because I'm way too ecstatic about this and anxious about them holding their end up.

Guys, I want to apologize for my incompetence and for being ignorant. I've done a lot of thinking and concluded that I should not participate in debates due to the fact that I am very uneducated and 'blissfully ignorant' as my father put it. He was right.

@souleaterfan320

You're not. Feel free to continue discussing.

<Snipped quote by Galaxy Raider>

There are some cases it's warranted, but not many.

<Snipped quote by Nimda>

Um... No? It doesn't.

@DarkwolfX37

It is, look it up.

By the way, Jacob, you never responded to Arthur's mindscape post with Ridge. I think David's waiting on that before he posts with Misty. Or alternatively you all completely forgot about it.

@Mammalia

Was waiting on you, and also for LB response.

[Galaxy Raider]

<Snipped quote by Galaxy Raider>

Arthur would have traced the illusion and pulled the actual Ridge in.

@Mammalia

Gotcha.

Okay, I just picked up two GTX 980 ti cards for a total of $330, as long as they don't cancel on me. I'm just going to say that I stand behind Jonny's arguments, because I'm way too ecstatic about this and anxious about them holding their end up.

<Snipped quote by souleaterfan320>

You're not. Feel free to continue discussing.

<Snipped quote by DarkwolfX37>

It is, look it up.

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

Was waiting on you, and also for LB response.

@Nimda

You sound ecstatic. 8P

Regardless of anything else, I'm just incredibly happy I got to have a real, intellectual discussion. I never get to do that with anyone around here. I know no one is going to agree with me, that's just the way it is.

[Mammalia]

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

That is exactly what runs people off. Why not convince or try to convert? Why just jump to laws and punishments? Yes, I get that God punishes, but the state does not have to be the medium for the punishment. Why should it? And, again, punishing people for actions that they themselves do not believe is wrong is inefficient. The best way to prevent them from doing wrong is to make them understand why it is wrong, not smack them on the hand and say "bad boy" then leave them to their fate. And if, as you admit, the punishment would happen anyways, then way do it in a way that scares off so many of the lost?

God punishes immorality.
We do not wish for others to be punished.
If we do not want others to be punished, we must teach then not to be immoral.
To do this, we should do our job as Christians and try to save more souls, and leave God's job to Him instead of doing it ourselves.
Convincing someone to follow the Christian Faith helps them see why something is immoral.
The best way to keep someone from doing wrong is to help them understand why the action is wrong.
Therefore, if we do not want others to be punished for immorality, we must guide them to the light instead of chasing them into or just leaving them in the darkness.

@Galaxy Raider

I would never deny that that is the absolute best way to discourage someone from being immortal. Certainly, to convert someone to God is much better than just stopping someone from doing wrong! But we can't always take the best way. I mean, if God always took the best way to save people, then nobody would ever go through hardships to be saved, because God might just show them a vision, or something that would change their mind, or whatever else. It would be awesome if we could take what we saw as the best way, and use that effectively for everyone. But the problem is that we just can't. People are different, and, therefore, they require different methods, so we should take all reasonable avenues to discourage them from immorality.

God punishes immorality.
We do not wish for others to be punished.
If we do not wish for others to be punished, then we should discourage them from immorality in the best way we can.
God uses different ways to save people, because a way that works on one person may not work on another.
So to discourage someone from immorality, we must take the way that works best for them.
We cannot know what way works best for someone.
Therefore, we must take the best ways we know of, to discourage the most people.
One possible way is to convert them to Christ.
Another way is to put into effect laws that punish immorality (as proved by my previous argument).
Because both of these work, then we should put both into effect, to discourage the most people.

[Mammalia]

<Snipped quote by Mammalia>

Gotcha.

<Snipped quote by Nimda>

You sound ecstatic. 8P

Regardless of anything else, I'm just incredibly happy I got to have a real, intellectual discussion. I never get to do that with anyone around here. I know no one is going to agree with me, that's just the way it is.

@Galaxy Raider

I'm always happy to have an intellectual discussion. I love them!