5 Users and 17 Guests viewing this page
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Heroic
Raw
Avatar of Heroic

Heroic Zoey

Member Seen 13 days ago

<Snipped quote by Extra>

They aren't arguments; they're grammar discussions right now. Neither of us are upset, but I prefer a gender neutral "he" and he prefers a singular "they," and we're discussing the history. I don't find it amusing or entertaining either, but it's just information. I avoid the OOC as well, but for other reasons. I don't see how we could have a discussion that differs from an argument if this isn't good.

<Snipped quote by Heroic>

Just fine "-ate" words.


8
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Legend
Raw
Avatar of Legend

Legend

Member Seen 9 days ago

<Snipped quote by Legend>

8


gr8 b8 m8 I r8 8/8 for when you want to r8 gr8 b8 8/8.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Heroic
Raw
Avatar of Heroic

Heroic Zoey

Member Seen 13 days ago

<Snipped quote by Heroic>

gr8 b8 m8 I r8 8/8 for when you want to r8 gr8 b8 8/8.


aweso12
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Legend
Raw
Avatar of Legend

Legend

Member Seen 9 days ago

<Snipped quote by Legend>

aweso12


Gr9 b9 m9.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Heroic
Raw
Avatar of Heroic

Heroic Zoey

Member Seen 13 days ago

<Snipped quote by Heroic>

Gr9 b9 m9.


M249 SAW.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by whizzball1
Raw
Avatar of whizzball1

whizzball1 Spirit

Member Seen 3 yrs ago

<Snipped quote by whizzball1>

Not when we have one account of it. It could be a literary error for all we know. And if that's the only piece of ancient literature that we have that uses "their" as singular, it's safe to assume the rest of them used "his."

Old English actually had a neutral term. Middle English had a semi-neutral term, which is connected to the modern term "he."
"The third person singular neuter (it, also found in the older form hit) relates to the possessive his (not its!)"
nativlang.com/middle-english/middle-en..

(As am I, but I'm not willing to spend as much time on it.)


It's not safe to assume the rest of them used "his" as a gender-neutral singular if there are no references that use "his" as a gender-neutral singular. I'm saying that we have a reference of "their" being used as a gender-neutral singular in Chaucer, but there are no references of "his" used like that, so it's actually much safer to assume that "their" was the common usage, at least with the knowledge that we have at the moment. You might say that we can look into somewhat later English literature to find uses of "he/his" and "they/their" as a gender-neutral singular and weigh which one is used most often, and I'll point to the many examples of "they/their" as the gender-neutral singular by respected writers of the fifteenth and sixteenth century, and the lack of examples of the other.

I was considering mentioning that, but I thought you would note that that corresponds to our use of "it". In fact, in Middle and Old English, nouns actually did have genders, so the neuter pronoun "hit" corresponded to nouns considered neuter, not both masculine and feminine.

As an aside, I'll cite Susanne Wagner in "Gender in English Pronouns: Myth and Reality" where she states that "there was an extended period of time in the history of the English language when the choice of a supposedly masculine personal pronoun (him) said nothing about the gender of the referent." This could be taken to mean that "him" referred to both males and females, but her next statement clarifies: "It could be masculine, male, neuter, or asexual..." No mention is made of "him" ever referring to females. Therefore, even though you could perhaps say that the neuter "hit" is related to the masculine "him", you could not say in any capacity that either was related to the feminine "sche[o]". Therefore, we're back to the challenge of finding a gender-neutral singular pronoun that referred to both females and males.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by whizzball1
Raw
Avatar of whizzball1

whizzball1 Spirit

Member Seen 3 yrs ago

These arguments somewhat annoy me. Not going to lie. I don't find them amusing nor entertaining at all. But, I'm not on OOC all the time so I can't complain.


I was just about to say that it's not an argument, but David beat me to it.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Extra
Raw
Avatar of Extra

Extra Maki

Member Seen 8 days ago

<Snipped quote by Extra>

I was just about to say that it's not an argument, but David beat me to it.


Whatever.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Legend
Raw
Avatar of Legend

Legend

Member Seen 9 days ago

<Snipped quote by Legend>

M249 SAW.


What now?

<Snipped quote by Legend>

It's not safe to assume the rest of them used "his" as a gender-neutral singular if there are no references that use "his" as a gender-neutral singular. I'm saying that we have a reference of "their" being used as a gender-neutral singular in Chaucer, but there are no references of "his" used like that, so it's actually much safer to assume that "their" was the common usage, at least with the knowledge that we have at the moment. You might say that we can look into somewhat later English literature to find uses of "he/his" and "they/their" as a gender-neutral singular and weigh which one is used most often, and I'll point to the many examples of "they/their" as the gender-neutral singular by respected writers of the fifteenth and sixteenth century, and the lack of examples of the other.

I was considering mentioning that, but I thought you would note that that corresponds to our use of "it". In fact, in Middle and Old English, nouns actually did have genders, so the neuter pronoun "hit" corresponded to nouns considered neuter, not both masculine and feminine.

As an aside, I'll cite Susanne Wagner in "Gender in English Pronouns: Myth and Reality" where she states that "there was an extended period of time in the history of the English language when the choice of a supposedly masculine personal pronoun (him) said nothing about the gender of the referent." This could be taken to mean that "him" referred to both males and females, but her next statement clarifies: "It could be masculine, male, neuter, or asexual..." No mention is made of "him" ever referring to females. Therefore, even though you could perhaps say that the neuter "hit" is related to the masculine "him", you could not say in any capacity that either was related to the feminine "sche[o]". Therefore, we're back to the challenge of finding a gender-neutral singular pronoun that referred to both females and males.


First correction: no uses that you are aware of. An all-encompassing blanket statement is often false. My point is that I'm not going to dig through old books to find it because it's not worth the effort, and people actually did put in the work to find "they" in older literature. But if you can only account for one or two instances, it is likely that the rest are the alternate form. If it happened to be common throughout those works, nobody would bother to go and find each instance because they would be abundant.

As I said and cited, it corresponds to "his," despite being neutral. The neutral term merged with a masculine one.

Previous statement.
There's an issue with that argument. In the case that's mentioned, the gender is known, rendering the gender neutral term useless. However, if it's related to someone who made a food, it would be understood that the term is gender neutral if, for example, the statement was "Give my regards to whoever made the food, for he did a good job." If we knew that the host's wife made it, we wouldn't use he, similar to why we don't use it when referring to childbirth.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Legend
Raw
Avatar of Legend

Legend

Member Seen 9 days ago

<Snipped quote by whizzball1>

Whatever.


Is it bothering you that much?
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by whizzball1
Raw
Avatar of whizzball1

whizzball1 Spirit

Member Seen 3 yrs ago

<Snipped quote by whizzball1>

Whatever.


I'm sorry if I'm annoying you, but at this point I'm genuinely curious as to which one of us is right, and I'm determined to follow this discussion to the end. The method I most like of disproving something is by disproving every argument that it is true, and therefore if I happen upon an argument that a traditionally masculine pronoun has been used as a gender-neutral singular pronoun prior to Chaucer's use of a plural pronoun as a gender-neutral singular pronoun that I cannot disprove, I will rethink my position. (Still never going to stop using "they" and "their" for that, though, because me likes it.)
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Legend
Raw
Avatar of Legend

Legend

Member Seen 9 days ago

<Snipped quote by Extra>

I'm sorry if I'm annoying you, but at this point I'm genuinely curious as to which one of us is right, and I'm determined to follow this discussion to the end. The method I most like of disproving something is by disproving every argument that it is true, and therefore if I happen upon an argument that a traditionally masculine pronoun has been used as a gender-neutral singular pronoun prior to Chaucer's use of a plural pronoun as a gender-neutral singular pronoun that I cannot disprove, I will rethink my position. (Still never going to stop using "they" and "their" for that, though, because me likes it.)


I still wish we had a Foundation of Grammar that defines what is correct and incorrect in English. I don't like fluidity.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Extra
Raw
Avatar of Extra

Extra Maki

Member Seen 8 days ago

<Snipped quote by Extra>

Is it bothering you that much?


<Snipped quote by Extra>

I'm sorry if I'm annoying you, but at this point I'm genuinely curious as to which one of us is right, and I'm determined to follow this discussion to the end. The method I most like of disproving something is by disproving every argument that it is true, and therefore if I happen upon an argument that a traditionally masculine pronoun has been used as a gender-neutral singular pronoun prior to Chaucer's use of a plural pronoun as a gender-neutral singular pronoun that I cannot disprove, I will rethink my position. (Still never going to stop using "they" and "their" for that, though, because me likes it.)


Just continue on. I shouldn't have voiced something that wasn't neccessary.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Legend
Raw
Avatar of Legend

Legend

Member Seen 9 days ago

<Snipped quote by Legend>

<Snipped quote by whizzball1>

Just continue on. I shouldn't have voiced something that wasn't neccessary.


No, seriously. I don't want you to feel like you can't speak your mind.
1x Like Like
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by whizzball1
Raw
Avatar of whizzball1

whizzball1 Spirit

Member Seen 3 yrs ago

<Snipped quote by Heroic>

What now?

<Snipped quote by whizzball1>

First correction: no uses that you are aware of. An all-encompassing blanket statement is often false. My point is that I'm not going to dig through old books to find it because it's not worth the effort, and people actually did put in the work to find "they" in older literature. But if you can only account for one or two instances, it is likely that the rest are the alternate form. If it happened to be common throughout those works, nobody would bother to go and find each instance because they would be abundant.

As I said and cited, it corresponds to "his," despite being neutral. The neutral term merged with a masculine one.

Previous statement.
There's an issue with that argument. In the case that's mentioned, the gender is known, rendering the gender neutral term useless. However, if it's related to someone who made a food, it would be understood that the term is gender neutral if, for example, the statement was "Give my regards to whoever made the food, for he did a good job." If we knew that the host's wife made it, we wouldn't use he, similar to why we don't use it when referring to childbirth.


But if "he" was common throughout those works as a gender-neutral singular pronoun, as in the usage you mention at the bottom of your post, then it would certainly be mentioned at some point, because it is definitely relevant to the debate about GNSPs. However, in my searches, I haven't found anyone saying that "he" was used when the gender was unknown.

Now that I fully understand what you're trying to say here, that is definitely interesting. My citation from Wagner is still relevant, that "him" said nothing about gender (except that it isn't feminine).

I notice that you keep saying "we". Yes, we, in Modern English, would use that, because that became natural to us after it was pushed in the nineteenth century. But the issue we're debating is--did they of Middle English use that?

Um. I would have continued writing that paragraph, but at this exact moment I have just realised that, in light of what you just noted, my citation from Wagner basically means that it's likely that, in Middle English, they used "him" if they didn't know the actual gender. The problem still remains that we don't have any literary references from that time attesting to this, and this understanding is an inference based on the personal pronouns of that time, but it's enough to make me rethink my position, as I mentioned in my response to Blitz, because I can't reasonably contradict you without stretching my interpretation of my citations.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by whizzball1
Raw
Avatar of whizzball1

whizzball1 Spirit

Member Seen 3 yrs ago

<Snipped quote by whizzball1>

I still wish we had a Foundation of Grammar that defines what is correct and incorrect in English. I don't like fluidity.


So do I. But because there are so many factions, contradictions abound, especially in this case, where Oxford, Cambridge, and Chicago support the usage of "they" as a GNSP, but the American Psychological Association, Purdue University et al. oppose it. Every faction seems to contradict every other faction in some part of their styles.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Extra
Raw
Avatar of Extra

Extra Maki

Member Seen 8 days ago

<Snipped quote by Extra>

No, seriously. I don't want you to feel like you can't speak your mind.


It is fine.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Legend
Raw
Avatar of Legend

Legend

Member Seen 9 days ago

<Snipped quote by Legend>

But if "he" was common throughout those works as a gender-neutral singular pronoun, as in the usage you mention at the bottom of your post, then it would certainly be mentioned at some point, because it is definitely relevant to the debate about GNSPs. However, in my searches, I haven't found anyone saying that "he" was used when the gender was unknown.

Now that I fully understand what you're trying to say here, that is definitely interesting. My citation from Wagner is still relevant, that "him" said nothing about gender (except that it isn't feminine).

I notice that you keep saying "we". Yes, we, in Modern English, would use that, because that became natural to us after it was pushed in the nineteenth century. But the issue we're debating is--did they of Middle English use that?

Um. I would have continued writing that paragraph, but at this exact moment I have just realised that, in light of what you just noted, my citation from Wagner basically means that it's likely that, in Middle English, they used "him" if they didn't know the actual gender. The problem still remains that we don't have any literary references from that time attesting to this, and this understanding is an inference based on the personal pronouns of that time, but it's enough to make me rethink my position, as I mentioned in my response to Blitz, because I can't reasonably contradict you without stretching my interpretation of my citations.


Refer to your second paragraph to answer this question.

When I make an argument about older Englishmen, using "we" places me within their time. Yes, the concept applies.

My point exactly. Though to match you there, I can't argue with actual examples because I don't read Middle English books. Regardless, this is close enough to discussed out in my eyes if it makes Blitz uncomfortable.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Legend
Raw
Avatar of Legend

Legend

Member Seen 9 days ago

<Snipped quote by Legend>

So do I. But because there are so many factions, contradictions abound, especially in this case, where Oxford, Cambridge, and Chicago support the usage of "they" as a GNSP, but the American Psychological Association, Purdue University et al. oppose it. Every faction seems to contradict every other faction in some part of their styles.


Which is why we need one board of English speakers.

<Snipped quote by Legend>

It is fine.


Please?
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Extra
Raw
Avatar of Extra

Extra Maki

Member Seen 8 days ago

<Snipped quote by whizzball1>

Which is why we need one board of English speakers.

<Snipped quote by Extra>

Please?


It. Is. Fine.
↑ Top
5 Users and 17 Guests viewing this page
© 2007-2024
BBCode Cheatsheet