[OOC] The Relics (No Plot/Fantasy/Character Driven/Worthy of Skepticism)

[Ellri]

Crossbows = nono because someone wanted knights in shiny armor. There's no central church here with the power that the church had in the middle ages, so there's no authority that could issue same ban on heavy crossbows that was issued in the middle ages. Without such a ban, all those noble knights in their expensive (and shiny) plate armor will find themselves pin-cushioned by the companies of easily trained crossbowmen. In the middle ages, crossbows ended up banned because the nobles found themselves awfully vulnerable to such weapons and convinced the church to ban them.

If wearing heavy armor (especially like Markul), arrows have to strike just right to cause harm, if the angle is wrong, they ping off plate armor. Crossbows have slightly shorter range, but more force, so they perforate thicker armor. thus, wherever you mentioned that bit about markul not being affected by arrows Freeshooter, we didn't react, because it made some sense. You could probably have him react in the future, even if it is only in irritation at how harmless they are to him.

[Maki Casanova]

Oh Sep, sorry, that wasn't for you, I was actually agreeing with you. xD I gotta work on my formatting and addressing sometimes.

Sparks, we need your GM powers!

[Assallya]

Well, a bit of criticism there. Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy skepticism. My original concept involved "Gold". The idea that the only thing she could touch and be touched by was gold. This greatly suited the thief concept, Then I envisioned just how ridiculously invincible that would be. With a pair of gold daggers she'd be able to cut through any armour, ignore any attacks and be a proper nuisance until every noble out there who could afford it was coating their armour in gold plating. Once I envisioned her walking through an entire army of serfs unmolested I gave the idea up. Thus I considered the two more popular likely prospects, something people normally carried, wood and iron/steel. The iron aspect seemed better in theme. If we want to go back to gold though... I'm all for it :)

Another point I neglected to mention was that she can't lift a letter from a private room or even strike a person while intangible. She can only touch iron. How is it that much a stretch from not being able to lift up a letter to not being able to wear clothes. The other part I like is how the cloak she wears isn't quite natural. It flows through the body in addition to around the body which is kind of creepy. (Some of you will note and thus I should point out that I am aware that would likely mean she'd have to be super careful solidifying lest the cloak be solidified inside her and kill her. I decided on dramatic license If that's an issue we can lose the cloak, I mean, writing it makes me want to abandon it for the sake of logic.)

The strange part I think that comes later is the assumption that she walks around nude all the time. The first thing I put into the appearance section was commoner's clothing. She only has a problem with clothing while "working". Secondly, there seems to be an assumption that an assassin would engage in prolonged combat with armoured individuals. Armour meant everything in medieval combat. You would literally allow strikes against your own body, bracing for the impact, just as you would using a shield. If such a situation arose an assassin would be getting the hell out of dodge, in the case it'd involve dropping through the floor and swimming through the earth. Why take on the lord's man-at-arms when you can come back in a fortnight and try to take the man in his sleep?

The toe ring aspect? The main reason she wears it down low is because it's harder to snatch from her. The ring is one of her vulnerable spots, the only part of her able to be touched by the flesh of others. Indeed, as was pointed out, most of the other bangles, rings, armlets and whatnot are there to confuse the specific location of the device. As a sidenote, why does anyone think that toerings are a modern invention? Earrings in men were very common up until the "Gentleman" movement in the Victorian age. Any sort of gaudy ostentatious display of wealth was welcomed by lords in the medieval ages. I mean... a necklace of gold bars? Seriously? That could not have been comfortable.

Let's see. What else was brought up. Crossbows? I don't really care. The sort of crossbows that could pierce proper full plate weren't much of a concern for long. Heck, even full plate wasn't around very long since muskets came soon after. We're talking about "siege crossbows" here though. They involve a stirrup and crank and they were a right terror. Unfortunately they were incredibly difficult to conceal and, in addition, had to be fairly close up to penetrate full plate. Full plate was angular by nature, turning arrows away instead of stopping them. The main reason crossbows were illegal wasn't that they were able to penetrate armour it was that they were ambush weapons and a terror to the poor bastards in their chain mail escorting the taxes. Heck, most weapons were illegal if the local lord could justify it including any sort of sword and often bows. After all, one couldn't have the serfs hunting down the local game or there would be none left for the lord when he chose to... errr... hunt... If you can call the brush beating circus that followed an actual hunt. Not that any of that matters to Sevine. She can't use crossbows while using her ring. Too much wood.

Crap... gotta go to work. Ended up using my breakfast time writing this. I apologize if I missed anything. Oh crap. Nations. No real fealty. I do like the idea of being in a city under siege with skyrocketing prices but I was going to ask Guilty Spark were I would be most effective.

[Guilty Spark]

Anybody take issue with her rebuttal?

[Assallya]

*grins*

I do. Dang arrogant patronizing- Oh wait... that's me.

As an afterthought, concerns are okay but suggestions or ideas are better. I'm starting to think "organics" should be the limiting factor. Thus a fist is more dangerous to her than a sword? It would allow her to wear clothes, carry paper and use fire hardened wooden daggers, bows and the like. She could ignore metal armour while still being flummoxed by leather and make her a more able combatant.

[Freeshooter92]

Ellri said
Crossbows = nono because someone wanted knights in shiny armor. There's no central church here with the power that the church had in the middle ages, so there's no authority that could issue same ban on heavy crossbows that was issued in the middle ages. Without such a ban, all those noble knights in their expensive (and shiny) plate armor will find themselves pin-cushioned by the companies of easily trained crossbowmen. In the middle ages, crossbows ended up banned because the nobles found themselves awfully vulnerable to such weapons and convinced the church to ban them.If wearing heavy armor (especially like Markul), arrows have to strike just right to cause harm, if the angle is wrong, they ping off plate armor. Crossbows have slightly shorter range, but more force, so they perforate thicker armor. thus, wherever you mentioned that bit about markul not being affected by arrows Freeshooter, we didn't react, because it made some sense. You could probably have him react in the future, even if it is only in irritation at how harmless they are to him.

Right, but a normal person would still be staggered by the force of the things, Marky barely flinched.

[WilsonTurner]

Freeshooter92 said
Right, but a normal person would still be staggered by the force of the things, Marky barely flinched.

Yea, this is something that I hate about movies and books and roleplays and stuff. It doesn't matter how strong or invincible you are- you need MASS to combat FORCE. If you shoot an arrow or a crossbow bolt at stone, then the stone will not move because it pushes back with the exact same force. If the rock pushed back with more force, then it'd move forward. If it was pushed backwards, it didn't push back enough. Mass is what causes that push-back force.

So if you're some giant Titan dude thing, and you run at a wall covered in cannons, you will not continue running. Cannons -> giant humans = pistol -> human. It will hurt. And you will fall. So if you're a regular size guy, and someone takes a hammer and whacks your cheek really hard, the hammer will not stop cold. It may not do any damage, depending on what your Relic does, but it WILL move the person, and probably snap their neck to the side. You throw a spear at someone, and even if it doesn't penetrate, they will probably fall on their ass, unless it's dodged.

I also hate how people seem to percieve space. In order to move in a zero-g environment you may need one of several things:
Something to push off of
Something to throw or launch
A gas or liquid to be ejected from a container in a high-velocity stream

See, if you take a F-15 fighter, make it all space-proof with sealed stuff and special engines and stuff that allows it to fly without air or without compromising its innards, then it may just be able to fly in space. The problem is that
A) Wings and flaps have no affect where there is no air to use them on; they work by redirecting air into different directions to change the aerodynamic-y-ness of the plane so it can become more like a screw, and tilt one way or another, or more like a quarter-circle, and go up, down, left, or right. Because space has very, very little matter in it, flaps and the like would only work on a very, very massive scale, in which the weight and mass of the entire object would be so high, even in space, that it would simply be unable to change course.
B) You need some kind of thruster, jet, or valve forward, backwards, left, right, up, and down. That way you can accelerate, but because it's space, you'll just keep accelerating with the thruster on. So if you turn the thruster off, you won't continue accelerating, but you will continue on your current velocity. Using the backwards jet will counteract the newtons of force put out by the forward jets, and will slow you down.

really basic physics and stuff. 101.
If you are a giant brute wearing heavy armor, an arrow or crossbow will be like a push. If you are an average sized guy wearing chainmail or some other mediumly-heavy or light armor, it will stagger you or put you on your ass. If you are a very small person, you are going to be flat-backed. You will be in pain. That is, if it didn't kill you.

[Assallya]

WilsonTurner said
Yea, this is something that I hate about movies and books and roleplays and stuff. It doesn't matter how strong or invincible you are- you need MASS to combat FORCE. If you shoot an arrow or a crossbow bolt at stone, then the stone will not move because it pushes back with the exact same force. If the rock pushed back with more force, then it'd move forward. If it was pushed backwards, it didn't push back enough...

...If you are a giant brute wearing heavy armor, an arrow or crossbow will be like a push. If you are an average sized guy wearing chainmail or some other mediumly-heavy or light armor, it will stagger you or put you on your ass. If you are a very small person, you are going to be flat-backed. You will be in pain. That is, if it didn't kill you.

Errr... no complaints about the latter parts but this introduction is entirely incorrect. An arrow has very little mass (21 grams on average for a modern arrow) striking at only 20 m/s. That's an abysmally low kinetic energy. If weren't for the cutting force, a type of mechanical advantage, applied to the kinetic energy it would be simply an irritant. When two masses collide the kinetic energy imparted is directly inverse to their masses. When a car hits a human the car is mostly unmoved and the human goes flying. Thus, if shooting an arrow at an immovable object like a wall or a steel plate, the arrow's energy is impacting itself, causing it to bounce off. The wall is NOT pushing back. It's a wall. Walls do not push anything.

Even a gunshot, which has a similar mass but much higher velocity and thus greater kinetic energy does not cause a person to be thrown back. In real life, people shot dead simply drop straight down like someone letting go of a sack of potatoes. If a person goes flying backwards it's not because of the bullet, it's probably because they were leaning backwards when struck. Not even with the impressive .50 caliber sniper rifles cause knockback! Check out Mythbusters Episode 38. Myths Revisited for the proof.

Thus, our invulnerable Evoker is perfectly roleplayed according to physics... though in terms of narration I would agree that some mention should have been made, a dismissive glance, a smirk or whatnot but that's entirely stylistic and according to taste.

[Freeshooter92]

Calling it now, the Empress is a Decepticon.

[WilsonTurner]

I'm not talking of a regular bow or arrow, but of a large, strong, powerful bow. The type that fires a large arrow, for a long distance. Although, I may have exaggerated, though I still doubt that one would be simply unmoved by any arrow that is meant to kill.

And yes, a wall does push back if you push on it.
If I were to walk up to the wall I am currently facing, and put five Newtons of force into it, then there are two real things that could happen. Either, A, the wall collapses or moves under the force, or, B, the wall pushes back with the exact same amount of force to prevent it from moving. That, or the curriculum that the state of Texas teaches is entirely wrong. Or at least my part of the state of Texas.

[Assallya]

Fact: A .50 caliber sniper rifle does not cause a person to be thrown back. The mythbusters tested this in episode 38 with a pig suspended in the air, a mere poking of a finger was capable of dislodging it. They fired every manner of firearm at it and it did not fall or go flying. They then they put a bullet proof vest on the pig to maximize the kinetic absorption and achieved the same result. If that level of kinetic energy doesn't do it... I don't really see any arrow doing anything, no matter how powerful the bow nor how heavy the arrow.

As for the Texan curriculum, perhaps, in an obscure manner what you say can be deemed correct but that is decidedly not a good way to describe it. It's not a push, it's a transfer of kinetic energy. Think of a Newton's Cradle. The kinetic energy is transmitted along the balls via a conductive medium, like electricity through a wire. There's no "pushing". In this case, an arrow striking a near immovable object the kinetic energy is transmitted to immovable object but must be dispersed in some fashion. (Conservation of energy) Since it can't move the immovable object, deform the object, or otherwise do work the energy then gets transferred back to the arrow. One could call that a "push" but it's not very accurate. The wall isn't pushing you back with the same force... you're pushing against yourself; The wall is simply a conductive medium.

[Maki Casanova]

Sep, extra butter on my popcorn please. *claims chair right beside Michael Jackson*

[AlidaMaria]

We have a second Ellri now, dear me, the facts! *claps while grabbing some of Maki's popcorn and sitting down besides her*

[Sep]

Maki Casanova said
Sep, extra butter on my popcorn please. *claims chair right beside Michael Jackson*

Silly people, you don't have butter on popcorn...

[Sep]

Also for you and your few garments Assallya



:P

[Ellri]

We really don't care for arguments today. Going about nearly nude when working is illogical. Unless you're a plain and simple whore working at whoring. Even then, if you're at all outside a warm building, you'll quickly catch hypothermia going about dressed in metal bands. Unless you try to godmod yourself out of any situation potentially involving direct combat (which we rather doubt you will), you'll eventually come into a situation where you're forced to fight prolonged.

Only being affected by iron isn't really logical, and it is very much overpowered. Not quite as OP as only gold, but still OP. We'd recommend going with metals instead. Perhaps refined metals being more effective against her than raw ore or contaminated ones. That'll make hiding a bit more challenge. We'd also suggest being able to take certain objects with you into the walls you're fond of hiding in. I.e. your peasant clothes.

Or the opposite. Rawer materials are harder to pass through, metals are resistant. That would explain why she doesn't fall through floors / Stairs / the ground).

The best way to hide being an evoker is by looking like everyone else, not by having dozens of potential relics on you. If someone wants to steal your relic, they will remove all objects they think could be it, not one at a time. And to be sure they do that, they would strip off any garments to be sure nothing is hidden underneath. And it is at that time the toe ring will become very suspicious.

As the crossbow discussion was all done some 60-80 pages back, we're not in the mood for going through it again.

[Sep]

Will get a Tyrell/Kheris post up later.

[Sep]

I definitely recall seeing a Myth post...

With a boat or something and us finding a river....

[Sundered Echo]

You were dreaming it Sep.

Free, I have started that collab. It took a little longer than expected, sorry about that.

[WilsonTurner]

Stop dreaming.

I thought I did, but I realized that I had lost inspiration and never finished the post.