American, not African American?

[The Nexerus]

Yes, and there are also specific businesses and economical practices that give preferential treatment to Africans or Jews or Asians or... you get the idea. You've successfully established that racist people exist, and some of them are employers.

The point that I expressed remains. The only codified racism in the Western world is affirmative action, and affirmative action is almost invariably directed against Europeans.

[Rare]

Magic Magnum said
Yes, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to at least discuss it.

So you want racism out of history books? Racism is apart of history as war is, it's bad but it played their role during the time of man. I'm not from racism and all (once more). But my stand on this topic is that you say "African-American" as a former way and you say "Black" in a informal way. Think of it as the Spanish way of saying 'you', there is tú, the informal way of saying you; 'usted' is the formal way of saying it. In short, use "African-American" as a way to show manners and use "Black" as a normal means of talking.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Rare said So you want racism out of history books?

No, my point is _______ topic should not be shunned from discussion because it worse somewhere else, or because there are also other issues going on.

Rare said Racism is apart of history as war is, it's bad but it played their role during the time of man. I'm not from racism and all (once more). But my stand on this topic is that you say "African-American" as a former way and you say "Black" in a informal way. Think of it as the Spanish way of saying 'you', there is tú, the informal way of saying you; 'usted' is the formal way of saying it. In short, use "African-American" as a way to show manners and use "Black" as a normal means of talking.

Except this entire thread has gone through why the term African American doesn't work.

[Dervish]

Rare said
Of course it's an issue in our country, but not a major one to America. They need to fix the economy, the Elections are coming as well, and many other issues that was served to America. I'm against racism towards everyone, but you can't get raid of it forever. People are going to be who they want to be or are not matter what you do to fix it. That's including being racism.Of course we can decrease the number of racism, but we can't wipe it all forever. It's like smoking, you can't make it disappear no matter what you do.

The fact there's city-wide riots happening in St. Louis and Ferguson as we speak because two black teenagers got shot by cops kind of implies that America still has problems with race relations. I'd say that qualifies as a major issue.

[So Boerd]

ASTA said
Not exactly sanctioned by law, but specific business and economical practices largely favor whites in the US and actively suppress the advancement of those persons unaffiliated with a white racial background. Instead of overt racism, it's covert, and consequently keeps the public uninformed and ignorant on the issues that minority groups face in this nation. Worse yet, it keeps the teeming white population fixated on small-scale problems while their beloved white government persists in caring little for them or their ethnic plight.

>White Government

>Black President, Black AG, Black president immune from critiscm because of skin color, affirmative action legal and endorsed.

[Kidd]

Rare said
So you want racism out of history books? Racism is apart of history as war is, it's bad but it played their role during the time of man. I'm not from racism and all (once more). But my stand on this topic is that you say "African-American" as a former way and you say "Black" in a informal way. Think of it as the Spanish way of saying 'you', there is tú, the informal way of saying you; 'usted' is the formal way of saying it. In short, use "African-American" as a way to show manners and use "Black" as a normal means of talking.

Actually "African-American" doesn't apply to everyone who is "black." They are not always interchangeable. And you thinking they are kinda show cases the issue.

And what are you talking about with the history lesson exactly? I literally don't understand your point. Also starting your point with "I'm not racist, but..." probably means you're at least a little racist.

[ASTA]

So Boerd said
>White Government>Black President, Black AG, Black president immune from critiscm because of skin color, affirmative action legal and endorsed.

Obama is half-black. I guess if you're going by the One Drop rule then yes, he's a black president. Or if you take into account his willingness to idenitify fully with his black racial background then I suppose you're even more correct.

However, Obama isn't immune to criticism. A brief gander at the news and a quick stroll through the internet will tell you that.

The Nexerus said
Yes, and there are also specific businesses and economical practices that give preferential treatment to Africans or Jews or Asians or... you get the idea. You've successfully established that racist people exist, and some of them are employers.The point that I expressed remains. The only codified racism in the Western world is affirmative action, and affirmative action is almost invariably directed against Europeans.

I'm not concerned with Europe. I'm concerned with the US. And given Europe's less-than-stellar historical dealings with the racial groups that you've listed (and those that are implied but were not mentioned), I'm finding it incredibly difficult to sympathize with any European that is 'harmed' by affirmative action given that said European is most likely benefiting from the generations of conquest and expansionism that saw the various old empires of that landmass rise to economical and martial prowess.

Also, I strongly doubt a privileged majority is harmed by affirmative action considering minority groups in the US are still fighting an uphill battle even with these 'advantages' people enjoy pointing out. Actually they aren't even advantages. They're more like 'equalizers' if anything, but even using that phrase is being exceptionally generous.

[The Nexerus]

ASTA said I'm not concerned with Europe. I'm concerned with the US. And given Europe's less-than-stellar historical dealings with the racial groups that you've listed (and those that are implied but were not mentioned), I'm finding it incredibly difficult to sympathize with any European that is 'harmed' by affirmative action given that said European is most likely benefiting from the generations of conquest and expansionism that saw the various old empires of that landmass rise to economical and martial prowess.

Also, I strongly doubt a privileged majority is harmed by affirmative action considering minority groups in the US are still fighting an uphill battle even with these 'advantages' people enjoy pointing out. Actually they aren't even advantages. They're more like 'equalizers' if anything, but even using that phrase is being exceptionally generous.

You are so horrifically ignorant and racist that I'm not even going to attempt to force rationality on you. You are too long gone, and too firm in your belief that everyone with a pale skin tone is basically Hitler.

[Lo Pellegrino]

The Nexerus said
You are so horrifically ignorant and racist that I'm not even going to attempt to force rationality on you. You are too long gone, and too firm in your belief that everyone with a pale skin tone is basically Hitler.

Not sure you understand what that word means, mate. And they're pointing history, not calling all white people Hitler. Don't be offended by the repetitive, harmful decisions of the groups they're talking about, learn from those bad decisions and do better. That's it.

As a Puerto Rican I know that a majority of my ancestors were wiped out or enslaved, then raped and used for cattle. Simple fact. While I don't view every pale skinned person as Hitler as you mention, I do notice the huge differences in the way I am treated compared to my pale skinned counter parts, and I'm very anxious when having these types of conversations in a room full of white people. All too often is the response defensive, as if we're talking about you, when we're talking about a systematic problem. Ending racism means everyone needs to swallow the bitter reality that we've taught some fucked up things and even if it sucks to admit it, we need to change that behaviour. That simple.

[ASTA]

The Nexerus said
You are so horrifically ignorant and racist that I'm not even going to attempt to force rationality on you. You are too long gone, and too firm in your belief that everyone with a pale skin tone is basically Hitler.

I'm not calling every single pale-skinned individual on the planet a Hitler clone; you said that. But you toting affirmative action as some sort of terrible anti-European agenda is extraordinarily pathetic when it's far from being that in reality. As I previously said, it's an equalizer, a supplement, which aims to actually assist minority groups in finding work or taking advantage of services and privileges that their white peers receive by default. And women (including white women) benefit from it. Even with this, they don't get special treatment, they aren't placed ahead of their white peers and they sure as shit aren't free from racial discrimination. I find it disturbing that a law is required for people to at least have a chance at standing on equal footing when placed side-by-side with those of European background.

And when it comes to Europe's history and the economic boom that it has reaped from its exploitation, subjugation and slaughter of native peoples, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. Especially when the negative impact European empires had on other peoples throughout the world still persists to this day.

Honestly, do I need to fetch links and stats to back this up or is this common knowledge like I hope it is?

[So Boerd]

ASTA said
I'm not calling every single pale-skinned individual on the planet a Hitler clone; you said that. But you toting affirmative action as some sort of terrible anti-European agenda is extraordinarily pathetic when it's far from being that in reality. As I previously said, it's an equalizer, a supplement, which aims to actually assist minority groups in finding work or taking advantage of services and privileges that their white peers receive by default. And women (including white women) benefit from it. Even with this, they don't get special treatment, they aren't placed ahead of their white peers and they sure as shit aren't free from racial discrimination. I find it disturbing that a law is required for people to at least have a chance at standing on equal footing when placed side-by-side with those of European background. And when it comes to Europe's history and the economic boom that it has reaped from its exploitation, subjugation and slaughter of native peoples, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. Especially when the negative impact European empires had on other peoples throughout the world still persists .Honestly, do I need to fetch links and stats to back this up or is this common knowledge like I hope it is?

1. So, what, Europeans are guilty by "corruption of blood?" Unconstitutional. Why don't we have anti-Aztec affirmative action or pro-Scandinavian affirmative action in Southern Greenland or pro-Neanderthal affirmative action everywhere or pro-European affirmative action in Mongolia? History is history. I'm Asian, mind you, and we Koreans didn't have it easy.

2. Colonization was not a zero-sum game. Can you honestly tell me that the African tribes, some of whom had not even invented the WHEEL, mind you, would be better off today if nobody brought technology to them?

[Lo Pellegrino]

So Boerd said
1. So, what, Europeans are guilty by "corruption of blood?" Unconstitutional. Why don't we have anti-Aztec affirmative action or pro-Scandinavian affirmative action in Southern Greenland or pro-Neanderthal affirmative action everywhere or pro-European affirmative action in Mongolia? History is history. I'm Asian, mind you, and we Koreans didn't have it easy.2. Colonization was not a zero-sum game. Can you honestly tell me that the African tribes, some of whom had not even invented the WHEEL, mind you, would be better off today if nobody brought technology to them?

So Boerd you're suggesting slavery had positive outcomes. Step and consider that thought for a moment, and ask yourself, is that really an argument you expect to catch favour with those of us whose grandparents and beyond suffered because of the ramifications of such? I mean, seriously mate.

BTW: I'm Puerto Rican. My mother and her parents before her were born on the island formerly known as Borikén and their roots go back centuries. Our history is blended. Our ancestors, the Taíno, a branch of the Arawakan people, were the original inhabitants of Borikén and one of the first populations Columbus came upon. He didn't bring the wheel though. He actually managed to wipe out about 80% of the Taíno in less than a century. Those who survived fled to the mountains or were enslaved and raped by the Spaniards or forced to reproduce with the African and other Native American slaves. Would we be better off today if no one brought us technology? I don't know about that, but I do know there'd probably be a whole lot more of us.

Also, again, read what I said above.

As a Puerto Rican I know that a majority of my ancestors were wiped out or enslaved, then raped and used for cattle. Simple fact. While I don't view every pale skinned person as Hitler as you mention, I do notice the huge differences in the way I am treated compared to my pale skinned counter parts, and I'm very anxious when having these types of conversations in a room full of white people. All too often is the response defensive, as if we're talking about you, when we're talking about a systematic problem. Ending racism means everyone needs to swallow the bitter reality that we've taught some fucked up things and even if it sucks to admit it, we need to change that behaviour. That simple.

[So Boerd]

So Boerd you're suggesting slavery had positive outcomes. Step and consider that thought for a moment, and ask yourself, is that really an argument you expect to catch favour with those of us whose grandparents and beyond suffered because of the ramifications of such?

Korean here, I'll hold my "historically abused" credentials up against anyone else's, including a still existing Russian-installed state that is the most brutal in history. You imply that I am saying if I were doing it all over again in the 1500s, I would advocate slavery. Of course not. That is an absurd and baseless allegation. But it cannot be denied that as a consequence, writing, the wheel, and numerous other inventions were introduced. (Yes, I know paleolithic was not universal). Was it "worth it"? Hell no. But it happened.

Therefore, Africans were not materially held back by Europeans and are entitled to no material compensation now, even if I accept this antiquated "corruption of blood" argument used to condone Jewish genocide.

[Lo Pellegrino]

So Boerd said
Korean here, I'll hold my "historically abused" credentials up against anyone else's, including a still existing Russian-installed state that is the most brutal in history. You imply that I am saying if I were doing it all over again in the 1500s, I would advocate slavery. Of course not. That is an absurd and baseless allegation. But it cannot be denied that as a consequence, writing, the wheel, and numerous other inventions were introduced. (Yes, I know paleolithic was not universal). Was it "worth it"? Hell no. But it happened.Therefore, Africans were not materially held back by Europeans and are entitled to no material compensation now, even if I accept this antiquated "corruption of blood" argument used to condone Jewish genocide.

So Boerd, antiquated it might be if the systems of oppression didn't remain active today. But they are... so, it's not exactly an out-dated thing.

Nobody is talking about material compensation. We're talking about redefining the values assigned to individuals based on their colour and background. They are currently skewed to the extreme and that is a problem. You say that this way of thinking is what condoned the Jewish genocide, but I'd say that more coloured individuals have been incarcerated and murdered unjustly largely due to an accident of birth. We live in a world where walking into a room while dark skinned can identify you as a threat. That's more likely to cause another racially driven genocide, in my opinion.

[So Boerd]

Lo Pellegrino said
So Boerd, antiquated it might be if the systems of oppression didn't remain active today. But they are... so, it's not exactly an out-dated thing.Nobody is talking about material compensation. We're talking about redefining the values assigned to individuals based on their colour and background. They are currently skewed to the extreme and that is a problem. You say that this way of thinking is what condoned the Jewish genocide, but I'd say that more coloured individuals have been incarcerated and murdered unjustly largely due to an accident of birth. We live in a world where walking into a room while dark skinned can identify you as a threat. That's more likely to cause another racially driven genocide, in my opinion.

Weren't we talking about affirmative action?

[Rare]

Well, if you think about it, slavery did have good outcomes. One, Economically, slavery was very beneficial to the landowners for whom they worked. Since they did not have to pay wages (although some did provide basic necessities) they enjoyed a larger bottom line (profit) This speaks to political advantages. Directly or indirectly, these profits were used to build the infrastructure of countries that had slavery. Two, it helped out the New World alot. I mean, slavers helped grew the population in the New World- 9.4 and 12 million arrived in the New World. The rich and wealthy people wouldn't give up anything and travel to the New World as well. And three, it founded the cultures, traditions, and the customs of slaves. Where would we be without jazz, folk tales, and many other famous things?

Such there were tons of very bad things that happened towards slaves and changed them forever; but, you got to think deep in this topic. Since the concept of "slavery" is as old as man himself and has not been limited to any race or class of people throughout history, you might well say that, socially speaking, this practice is the foundation for even modern laborers. Those of us who work for someone other than ourselves contribute greatly to the wealth of only a small percentage of our population here in the US.

(Again, I'm not racism, just saying the facts).

[So Boerd]

Rare said
Well, if you think about it, slavery did have good outcomes. One, Economically, slavery was very beneficial to the landowners for whom they worked. Since they did not have to pay wages (although some did provide basic necessities) they enjoyed a larger bottom line (profit) This speaks to political advantages. Directly or indirectly, these profits were used to build the infrastructure of countries that had slavery. Two, it helped out the New World alot. I mean, slavers helped grew the population in the New World- 9.4 and 12 million arrived in the New World. The rich and wealthy people wouldn't give up anything and travel to the New World as well. And three, it founded the cultures, traditions, and the customs of slaves. Where would we be without jazz, folk tales, and many other famous things? Such there were tons of very bad things that happened towards slaves and changed them forever; but, you got to think deep in this topic. Since the concept of "slavery" is as old as man himself and has not been limited to any race or class of people throughout history, you might well say that, socially speaking, this practice is the foundation for even modern laborers. Those of us who work for someone other than ourselves contribute greatly to the wealth of only a small percentage of our population here in the US.(Again, I'm not racism, just saying the facts).

Negative economic impacts. You had people who didn't care about the quality of work as they were not rewarded doing the work and a bunch of unproductive people whose work they took.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Kidd said Also starting your point with "I'm not racist, but..." probably means you're at least a little racist.

ASTA said I'm finding it incredibly difficult to sympathize with any European that is 'harmed' by affirmative action given that said European is most likely benefiting from the generations of conquest and expansionism that saw the various old empires of that landmass rise to economical and martial prowess. Also, I strongly doubt a privileged majority is harmed by affirmative action considering minority groups in the US are still fighting an uphill battle even with these 'advantages' people enjoy pointing out. Actually they aren't even advantages. They're more like 'equalizers' if anything, but even using that phrase is being exceptionally generous.

The best equalizer is honestly having no equalizers.

I understand the desire to have one, but it makes hiring practices bias.
Now, instead of hiring someone strictly on skill and abilities (Race not entering the equation) there is now a quota to fill.
If you were to get two applicants, one was white and very skilled and the other was black and not so skilled you may be forced to hire the less skilled person strictly due to their skin colour.

It's effectively job discrimination based on race, but in favor of the minorities. Now, if you were a minority would you rather stop being one because you've proven yourselves to be skilled and capable? Or would you rather stop being one because you were hand-holded and given special treatment?

The Nexerus said You are so horrifically ignorant and racist that I'm not even going to attempt to force rationality on you. You are too long gone, and too firm in your belief that everyone with a pale skin tone is basically Hitler.

I find it Ironic that it's the guy with the Grammar Nazi pic who is calling others Hitler as an insult.

Rare said Well, if you think about it, slavery did have good outcomes.

One, Economically, slavery was very beneficial to the landowners for whom they worked. Since they did not have to pay wages (although some did provide basic necessities) they enjoyed a larger bottom line (profit) This speaks to political advantages. Directly or indirectly, these profits were used to build the infrastructure of countries that had slavery.

Two, it helped out the New World alot. I mean, slavers helped grew the population in the New World- 9.4 and 12 million arrived in the New World. The rich and wealthy people wouldn't give up anything and travel to the New World as well.

And three, it founded the cultures, traditions, and the customs of slaves. Where would we be without jazz, folk tales, and many other famous things?

1. Benefited the few, harmed the many. It's a practice Spock would of been hugely disappointed in.
Yes it may have had some economic benefit by allowing a few people to contribute more, but it more than evens out to the negatives when you look at all the people who could have been successful workers, business men, apprentices etc whose ability to contribute was greatly stifled by being reduced to a slave.

2. Because they were the only ones with any power/authority to do so. Slaves had no rights, they had no say to move somewhere, or no resources to contribute. Because they were never given the chance.
Plus the New World's major contribution of population wasn't even slaves, it was immigrants looking to start a new life. Something that there was plenty of.

3. Say what? Slavery took people away from the culture and basically destroyed it, reducing the slaves to... well slaves. They didn't make their culture by being slaves, some may have held onto some of their culture for when they were freed, or as some comfort when enslaved. But that culture could of been introduced far better by simply accepting them as immigrants.

[Dervish]

My dad was a foreman for a big amusement park in the heavy duty mechanic and ride maintenance division so he was responsible for hiring new workers. He told me he never read the name of the applicant so it would be bias free and based entirely off of skills and experience and how well they put together a resume and cover letter. In my opinion, it's the best way to do it. His shop had all sorts of ethnic backgrounds but they were all damn good workers with a great relationship.

I think things like affirmative action are bullshit because you don't solve discrimination with more discrimination. If an applicant was only presented as their skills, experience, and effort into applying for the job and there were new hire protection programs in place so things like gender and race bias were penalized if proven after a submitted complaint, then shit would go so much smoother.

Saying white people don't deserve a fair and even shot at a job in an affirmative action society because of something their ancestors did is all kinds of fucked up. Make things even, not try to make up for shit that happened decades or centuries ago.

[HollywoodMole]

Rare said
Well, if you think about it, slavery did have good outcomes. One, Economically, slavery was very beneficial to the landowners for whom they worked. Since they did not have to pay wages (although some did provide basic necessities) they enjoyed a larger bottom line (profit) This speaks to political advantages. Directly or indirectly, these profits were used to build the infrastructure of countries that had slavery. Two, it helped out the New World alot. I mean, slavers helped grew the population in the New World- 9.4 and 12 million arrived in the New World. The rich and wealthy people wouldn't give up anything and travel to the New World as well. And three, it founded the cultures, traditions, and the customs of slaves. Where would we be without jazz, folk tales, and many other famous things? Such there were tons of very bad things that happened towards slaves and changed them forever; but, you got to think deep in this topic. Since the concept of "slavery" is as old as man himself and has not been limited to any race or class of people throughout history, you might well say that, socially speaking, this practice is the foundation for even modern laborers. Those of us who work for someone other than ourselves contribute greatly to the wealth of only a small percentage of our population here in the US.(Again, I'm not racism, just saying the facts).

Listing "benefits" to the enslavement of thousands isn't okay...