Not sure how I missed Kidd's reply to me last time, my bad. :/
Also, I was not expecting to have to defend MRA's as much as I'm about to below... :/
But I will disclaim before I start, I am not an MRA but a Gender Egalitarian. It's just that I am seeing MRA getting a lot of shit and criticism they honestly don't deserve to be getting so I feel the need to defend them here.
Kidd said
That's not true. Feminism stands alone, whether or not MRAs are around to bitch about. The MRM is literally a counter movement to feminism. It's equivalent to "allies" demanding recognition in the LGBTAQ+ community. Or white people claiming they're oppressed because minorities are finally being given equal opportunities. It's literally, "this isn't about me for once so I'm going to throw a tantrum."
Not really, Feminism always finds something invest most of their time arguing against. Gamers, Patriarchy, Atheists who aren't Atheists+ etc.
I will admit, I'm not entirely sure what the difference between MRA and MRM is meant to be though, they've both always seemed to be interchangeable terms for the same group/movement.
And you're half right in regards to MRA/MRM being the equivalent to allies wanting recognition in an LGBT community.
Except it's not so much a case of say the ally randomly walking up and going "Hey guys, where's my straight pride!?". But a case of the ally always coming to the LGBT club meetings, always being kind and supportive, but then suddenly being told "Their opinion doesn't matter, and their presence is merely tolerated because they are Hetero", and then being treated with suspicion and distrust for their sexuality because it's not LGBT. And then that ally stands up and says "That ain't cool guys, I want to be your friend but you're treating me like shit". It's not a matter of say Straights or Whites getting mad about equal opportunities, it's them getting mad because they are treated such hate and suspicion because the minorities are so quick to see them as an enemy and discount their opinions.
Kidd said
On top of that, feminism continues to push for women's rights. Men have been assaulted, murdered, raped, and denied opportunities (see Boy Scouts, Ferguson, prisons, gay rights) by other men but instead of talking about this, MRAs continue to whine about how feminism is hurting straight white men. The MRM insists too much on discussing how women are oppressing men when it's men oppressing men. I've never ONCE seen these issues breached by a MRA unless it was to somehow twist the finger back at feminism.
Actually MRA have been pretty on top of male vs male abuse. But it does get less attention than say females abusing men, I'll grant you that. But there is a reason for that.
People are already fully willing to believe a male can be an abuser, but they are not as willing to believe a woman can be an abuser. Especially if the victim is a male.
If you bring up a case of say "This man raped that man" to court, the male victim would probably face social stigma and harassment but the case would still be treated with some seriousness and validity. But if it was a man raped by a woman? It's more like the court will rule the man had raped the woman and sentence the male victim to jail, rather than sentence the actual rapist. You can see a similliar thing is child custody, women almost always get the child, even if their is irrefutable proof that the father would make the better parent. This is clearly a backwards system, and although male vs male abuse is bad it's not something the court is nearly as twisted and broken about compared to when the abuser is a woman. So priorities get made, MRA diverts is focus, attention and resources to the fights that are more in need at the time.
Kidd said
I've already talked about my experience in anthropology with you, and one of the things we discuss in cultural anthropology is womens' rights, so my experience goes beyond googling statistics and arguing on the internet.
And so have I. A very large portion of my ECE classes boil down to classmates and teachers having long discussions on how "Men are violent", "Woman have it all bad", "How my classmates fear letting a man change a babies diaper. Because the man might molest the baby..." >.<
You'd be surprised how much of what is supposed to be training you to work with children turns into a "Let's have a pity party because we're all women except for Gwazi!".
Kidd said
To reiterate my overall point, the MRM is men expressing issues with how men are treated. Men are treated in these ways primarily by other men. But feminism becomes the scapegoat even though it already has, is, and continues to take a stand against these exact issues. Example: the MRM blames feminism for false rape accusations because they think women use it to gain power over men. However, feminism takes just as much issue with false rape accusations because they affect how seriously rape victims are taken.
And there is a reason for this, and it's the reason I don't affiliate myself with either group.
Feminism focuses on women, MRA focuses on men. And because we set up separate group for the different sexes rather than simply fighting for equal human rights it creates a hostile and enemy culture between MRA and Feminists, cause the whole set up essentially teaches them to see each other as enemies for supporting the 'other side'.
As for your rape case example, that actually is a serious issue. The way rape courts currently work they always assume by default that the woman is the victim and the male is a rapist. It's filled with such gender and cultural stigma that the male essentially becomes thrown into a "Guilty until proven innocent" situation, even if he was the one who got raped. So while most women are wonderful human beings who would not ruin a persons life in such a way, there are some shitty women (because humanity always get's it's bad eggs from both sexes) who will take advantage of this. May it be for fame, attention, revenge, money etc.
And much of the time feminism will come in and say something along the lines of "This woman was raped! How could you be so cruel and insensitive as to doubt her after this traumatic experience!?". I mean, I'm sure you've seen Anita before and the way she paints every single female in video games as a victim. You know there are feminists out there who are not beyond playing the victim card for just about anything. They are not the majority, but there is enough of them that it causes very serious damage, damage that get's many lives ruined because people are too afraid of being 'immoral' to actually look at the evidence or be subjective in the case. Hell even when men are declared innocent they reputation is often still ruined because of all the people who look at it as a case of "The rapist got away".
Kidd said
As for the MRA treating women with respect...Only if their opinions align.
And once again, same thing with feminism.
You see women treating men with respect in feminism, but only if their opinions align.
The second there is disagreement that man is going to be swarmed with "Privileged White Cis Male" comments and accusations.
The same applies women who are seen as giving in to gender roles (Ex: Those who choose to stay at home, or choose to work with children) or those seen as "Exploiting women/giving women a bad name" (Anyone who wears revealing clothing) for not aligning with feminism.
