Why are dwarves so unpopular?

[Halvtand]

I’ve been roleplaying for quite some time and in that time I’ve noticed a trend.
Elves are among the most popular races to play, with the familiar human running for second place. Dwarves are among the most unpopular, and I’ve seen people asking to play as an orc or other “minority”-race rather than playing as a dwarf.
for a while now I’ve been working on a fantasy game, and one goal of the game is to make the dwarf race enjoyable to play, more appealing to the general playerbase.

To be frank, I’m stuck.
Personally I already enjoy the dwarven race, so maybe I’m a bit blind to the problems of these guys. I’m sure that this question has been debated all over the guild several times, but with the reset all that is gone. I’d like to open the question once again.

Why are dwarves so unpopular among fantasy-players? What is the major problem/s?
What do you think it would take to make them fun to play for “everyone” like the elf or human race?

[RBYDark]

I think from a general standpoint, dwarves aren't played as frequently because there's not an obvious subplot/characterization hook built into the species. They are not conventionally attractive due to their smaller size and the jokes about even the females being bearded - for those hoping to pursue a romantic subplot, it can be difficult to find a partner - nor are they particularly oppressed - an orc character, for instance, can bemoan the slaughter of their race, or an elf mourn for the forest.

From a 3.5e D&D standpoint, I just like the charisma-based classes and dwarves get a -2 penalty in that stat, so I don't play dwarves at this point. Otherwise, mechanically speaking, they seem quite good and can't speak for others. I guess maybe classes like orcs seem more intimidating and powerful.

That said, you really can't please everyone, unfortunately, so you probably shouldn't worry about it too much. Maybe consider subplot hooks related to the race? I'm just guessing though.

[Mr_pink]

I always play a Dwarf, after all

[Assallya]

My problem with Dwarves and Halflings are their lower movement rates. Not only do I prefer skirmishers but I've often found myself being chased by vastly superior odds. Dwarves simply can't outrun their orcish enemies and then the group has to choose between turning to fight or leaving the dwarf behind as a speed bump.

[Ellri]

we tried playing a drunkard dwarf once, but couldn't do it because we could not delve into its personality properly. But then, the same has happened with other races, so...

It may be harder for people to see how they can abuse the dwarves' physical traits, perhaps?

[Corsair]

Because the Dwarven archetype is a dull one, only really well suited to being comic relief, and if you move too far outside that archetype you're not playing a Dwarf, you're playing a dwarf, as in midget.

[ethanjory]

Dwarves are freaking awesome. Everyone plays elves because elves are overpowered and need nerfed. I blame Tolkien.

[Halvtand]

RBYDark said
I think from a general standpoint, dwarves aren't played as frequently because there's not an obvious subplot/characterization hook built into the species. They are not conventionally attractive due to their smaller size and the jokes about even the females being bearded - for those hoping to pursue a romantic subplot, it can be difficult to find a partner - nor are they particularly oppressed - an orc character, for instance, can bemoan the slaughter of their race, or an elf mourn for the forest.From a 3.5e D&D standpoint, I just like the charisma-based classes and dwarves get a -2 penalty in that stat, so I don't play dwarves at this point. Otherwise, mechanically speaking, they seem quite good and can't speak for others. I guess maybe classes like orcs seem more intimidating and powerful.That said, you really can't please everyone, unfortunately, so you probably shouldn't worry about it too much. Maybe consider subplot hooks related to the race? I'm just guessing though.

I just love how you brought up their appearance as a drawback of the race. It's a bit funny to think about how shallow our own fantasies can be.
You talk about subplot and characterizaion as well, a good point. If I understand you correctly you mean that dwarves are less fun to play because they're not very unique as individuals?
Not to be the argumentative type about this, but isn't that the players choice? I mean, I haven't encountered any system that I can think of that specifically tells you how to play your character. So by extension that would make the dwarves lacking in individuality because the players want them to be like that. Or am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?

Assallya said
My problem with Dwarves and Halflings are their lower movement rates. Not only do I prefer skirmishers but I've often found myself being chased by vastly superior odds. Dwarves simply can't outrun their orcish enemies and then the group has to choose between turning to fight or leaving the dwarf behind as a speed bump.

So basically you down want to have a drawback to overcome?

Ellri said
we tried playing a drunkard dwarf once, but couldn't do it because we could not delve into its personality properly. But then, the same has happened with other races, so...It may be harder for people to see how they can abuse the dwarves' physical traits, perhaps?

Could you perhaps expand this a bit? How were you not able to delve into its personality? Was it the character itself, the setting, mood, the rest of the group... something else?

By ”abuse”, are you talking about minmaxing (getting the highest score possible in whatever you find useful) or punishing the character itself for its low or high values?

Corsair said
Because the Dwarven archetype is a dull one, only really well suited to being comic relief, and if you move too far outside that archetype you're not playing a Dwarf, you're playing a dwarf, as in midget.

This is an excellent example of the point I was trying to get across to RBYDark about customization and individuality, how would you react to that?

ethanjory said
Dwarves are freaking awesome. Everyone plays elves because elves are overpowered and need nerfed. I blame Tolkien.

I heartily agree, but I feel that the blame should be placed more on Peter Jacksson, just watch the hobit-movies and the elf-jerking is quite apparent.
As a contranst, why do you love dwarves so? What about them gets your roleplaying-stiffy on?

[RBYDark]

Nah, you understood me rightly; that's why I said you shouldn't worry over it. The lack of attention to dwarves is really a player thing more than anything - they could work on the dwarf individually and create interesting characterization and plot hooks, but it requires a bit more work.

Again, though, it's just my theory, based on years of dealing with other aspects of the fantasy genre and extrapolating from there*.

*a free-for-all fantasy rp where attractive angsty vampires showed up a lot along with other characters fitting the same mold.

[Ellri]

If you intend to make someone really fond of strong, stout ales, you won't go for a pointy-eared elf, thats for sure.

[Blaze96]

I actually liked playing a dwarf, got a few fun times out of their naturally impressive strength and constitution in D&D next. Pair that with heavy armor, champion fighting style, and a warhammer and you can be a god until mid-levels certainly. The slower speed actually came in handy as some of the faster characters botched their roles and needed help getting up in an escape. While the faster characters booked it out, my dwarf was far enough back he could help them up without turning back. Also lead to a great scene of my character jumping out of a tree to smash in a hellhound's skull. Beating him one on one with no backup. Also, you can get some decent characterization and friction out of them. Like my character hates an Avenging Paladin because my dwarf's people were conquered and enslaved by a dragon. So while my dwarf is kind of trying to restore his people here's this guy talking about building a chapel to his god in their hometown, and trying to convert as many people as possible to a god who can generously be described as lawful neutral from what my character has seen.

[Syben]

Really, what other race can submerge themselves in a barrel of ale, and finish it too?

That's all I need to know.

[DELETED324324]

Dwarves aren't played because people want to be what they can't be and that is perfect. Elves are easily considered a "Perfect" race, humans can be made "Perfect" but dwarves are gruff, dirty, and loud mouthed drunkards so thus far from that perfection sterotype.

[Corsair]

I would dispute that. Anyone who's played Perfect knows that Perfect is boring as all hell, and the idea of Elves as perfect is a rather flawed one. They aren't perfect in Tolkien, that's for damn sure. Evil, selfish, cruel Elves abound in Middle-Earth. They appear perfect in LotR because their major representatives are the two most noble members of their race - Elrond and Galadriel. Legolas comes across as an arrogant, racist dick who through the course of the story has his rough edges - edges placed there by his father's dickish nature - worn away.

[Ellri]

even knowing that perfect ain't much fun, people strive for it. ain't that a nice paradox?

even though its not really true, a lot of people do believe that elves are superior to dwarves. one nice option to avoid that is to craft an RP where elves aren't available while dwarves are.

[Halvtand]

Blaze96 said
I actually liked playing a dwarf, got a few fun times out of their naturally impressive strength and constitution in D&D next. Pair that with heavy armor, champion fighting style, and a warhammer and you can be a god until mid-levels certainly. The slower speed actually came in handy as some of the faster characters botched their roles and needed help getting up in an escape. While the faster characters booked it out, my dwarf was far enough back he could help them up without turning back. Also lead to a great scene of my character jumping out of a tree to smash in a hellhound's skull. Beating him one on one with no backup. Also, you can get some decent characterization and friction out of them. Like my character hates an Avenging Paladin because my dwarf's people were conquered and enslaved by a dragon. So while my dwarf is kind of trying to restore his people here's this guy talking about building a chapel to his god in their hometown, and trying to convert as many people as possible to a god who can generously be described as lawful neutral from what my character has seen.

Nice story. Good example of how you can turn a drawback (slow) into an advantage.

Enalais said
Dwarves aren't played because people want to be what they can't be and that is perfect. Elves are easily considered a "Perfect" race, humans can be made "Perfect" but dwarves are gruff, dirty, and loud mouthed drunkards so thus far from that perfection sterotype.

That's a good point you're making, and talking about this with others in my gaming groups I've formed a similiar view myself. Playing av elf is kind of like ”easy-mode”, while dwarves have higher demands on character gaming and planning to make them work. But do you think that the problem is that the elves are ”good” rather than that the dwarves are ”bad”?

Corsair said
I would dispute that. Anyone who's played Perfect knows that Perfect is boring as all hell, and the idea of Elves as perfect is a rather flawed one. They aren't perfect in Tolkien, that's for damn sure. Evil, selfish, cruel Elves abound in Middle-Earth. They appear perfect in LotR because their major representatives are the two most noble members of their race - Elrond and Galadriel. Legolas comes across as an arrogant, racist dick who through the course of the story has his rough edges - edges placed there by his father's dickish nature - worn away.

That is very true, but it is easy to make the elves perfect. Just make them a bit more liberal and accepting of other races and you've got the full package.

Ellri said
even knowing that perfect ain't much fun, people strive for it. ain't that a nice paradox?even though its not really true, a lot of people do believe that elves are superior to dwarves. one nice option to avoid that is to craft an RP where elves aren't available while dwarves are.

I have thought of that too, but I think that if elves aren't in the game then people will flock to the humans, and ”all-human” doesn't go along with ”fantasy” in my mind. I've also had a thought of a game where the elves are the primary enemy, and describing them as beautiful, but also vile and deceptive. Very old norse. In this one I fear that people won't even give it a chance because their perfect precious darling elf has been turned into the villain. Would be fun though, just to see what happens.

[Sturmgeschutz]

*Walks through the door and takes hat off* 'scuse me, I'm new here but I saw this on the main page and thought I'd add my two pennies.

I had a similar discussion a lifetime ago on another forum, and oddly enough, the consensus boiled down to this:

Dwarves aren't in any way sexy.

Yup, that's what the bright bulbs over at Blizz came up with, and I sort of concurred.

I guess, thinking about it, didn't they sex the dwarves up in the hobbit movies? I haven't seen them, but I remember someone saying the main wasn't the "fat, bulbous nosed and bearded compact war machine Dwarves are supposed to be. In fact, he was more like a short human."

If that's the case, it lends the non-sexy theory a bit of um... strength? The idea that people will only play characters that they (perhaps in the darkest recesses of their minds) find sexy. I think Sigmund Freud floated a theory where anything creative we do is just our libidos being channelled into other means. Though that's straying from the beaten path.

But hey ho, that's just what I have to add.

[Ellri]

True. Sex sells.

Dwarves don't actually need to be bulky to be strong.

[vancexentan]

I personally don't usually play dwarves just because I'm not a fan of being the race. I don't have anythin' against dwarfs it's just that they don't come off as something I enjoy playing. In say DnD sense if I want a mage they're almost always better as humans and elves. If I want a beserker I'd want to pick a human or orc. A dwarf is always very stout and has a lot of health and stuff it's just that humans get early bonuses in exchange for lacking things and Orcs...well they're freaking orcs you don't fuck with a orc holding a massive sword.

[Rtron]

Dwarves are awesome.

vancexentan said Orcs...well they're freaking orcs you don't fuck with a orc holding a massive sword.

Same thing goes for a Dwarf holding a warhammer! XD