[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[Skallagrim]

An introductory subforum would be nice if people used it to learn and become an active participant. Many come here with the idea of starting a thread and fighting any which way. Those people have an idea of what they want and when the community doesn't respond they leave. Those who step into the chat with an introduction vanish shortly after. It is a tough line because the arena denotes different things to different people.

[ImportantNobody]

There could be an area in the multiverse itself to train newcomers so they could participate in the multiverse, developing their characters while learning at the same time.

[Skallagrim]

That only happens if they want to participate. If they want to start their own arena fight with friends they aren't interested in "our" arena elements.

[Descartes]

From my experience, combat happens frequently outside the arena anyway.

[Fallenreaper]

An introductory subforum would be nice if people used it to learn and become an active participant. Many come here with the idea of starting a thread and fighting any which way. Those people have an idea of what they want and when the community doesn't respond they leave. Those who step into the chat with an introduction vanish shortly after. It is a tough line because the arena denotes different things to different people.

@Skallagrim

<Snipped quote by Fallenreaper>

For reasons like this that I think we need some kind of Introductory subforum for people coming into the Arena here. A chance to really make sure everyone gets all the information they might need. Just expecting everyone to read every single thread with no real guidance on what they should and shouldn't bother to read is asking a bit much, I think. Also, It would offer a chance to post more relative threads. For example, I've been here for how long now? And I couldn't tell you where at in the Arena one could go and find the ruleset for T1. I mean, I'm sure it's there somewhere. I mean, I assume someone would have posted that by name. Perhaps even other rulesets.

@Impaqt

I actually... have saved rather a lot of threads, from preguild fall, saved into my flash drive. I think I even saved character sheets as well for reference in how some of the powers were explained, limited, etc. Namely as they helped a lot though they were varied for each player. Yes, if I like a CS I tend to draw aspects I like and such, as well as read them to see how detailed I should be in my own. Some of them were fairly well done.

There could be an area in the multiverse itself to train newcomers so they could participate in the multiverse, developing their characters while learning at the same time.

@ImportantNobody

Well, that would depend on a few factors. Namely how would you do that, like a sort of mentoring system or purely 'it's there so use it' tactics? The first, is an iffy one as I don't know the vet number or how dependable the newbies will be. You could have mentors that are too stressed to help teach newbies the ropes and ins and outs, while some newbies might up and vanish. However it has a better chance then the other. Mainly because in the 'it's there, so use it' tactics, you'll end up with Players often interacting alone or struggling to balance story telling and the arena aspect of it.

For me, I need a balance between normal rp and arena aspects. Usually the prior leaning into the latter resulting in a arena style fight then a lull for a while followed by another fight. I like to think of it as a sort of a plot of a novel. The fights are the raising actions, while there's normal rp leading up those points. It was one of the main reasons I enjoyed the arena was when Lyzan invited me into Insanity Isle with two friends of mine. It combined the two rp types nice and smoothly which allowed for conflict and story, increasing my enjoyment of the arena. It was namely a smooth transition from one to the other.

That only happens if they want to participate. If they want to start their own arena fight with friends they aren't interested in "our" arena elements.

@Skallagrim

That seems a bit unfair to me when you say it like that. Namely as I only battled with Lyzan, instead of joining the multiverse back before guildfall, in a pm because I knew him best. Some times comfort zone takes a higher position than risk to many people, like in my case before now. That didn't make what he taught different from your arena fights since they were the same basics. Mainly, the reason I stuck to only Lyzan because he was my friend and I wasn't afraid he would frown on my mistakes, get bothered by my questions, or get tired of teaching me. The same goes for Tearstone. I knew both would encourage me to think about my actions, sink into the scene and develop tactics outside the box. Especially no matter how unusual or unrealistic it was, and then explain to me several factors to increase my knowledge for the arena.

I think many reasons I frightened off opponents was because I asked details I considered important when I couldn't imagine a post fluidly. For example, during Yosh's last battle with Descartes which I asked, over skype, a bunch of questions about the attacks. Namely how high off the ground Raelis was hovering, where key things were, etc. Mostly to get a gist of the power, tactics and stuff that could be used even if my PCs don't have it. I like a challenge as long as there's some solutions.

<Snipped quote by Fallenreaper>

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you fight T1 style, without all your theoretical numbers.

P.S. I may or may not be drinking heavily tonight. While trying to respond to my NoW fight. Ha!

@Impaqt

Thank, I believe. I like to try to incorporate normal rp with arena style as it's a smoother transition than going purely arena. Earlier, I struggled so hard on Iron as I didn't have an actual story or world I could base him as well as being so rusty. Jacer's easier though I'm still iffy if I did him right or didn't put as much detail as I should. Mostly I have a habit that I put both strengths and weakness out front in a CS because it helps me feel better about the pc being balanced. Odd, likely, but true. XD Though Jacer is likely my most detailed one being at about 8 gdoc pages long and I've not even gotten into the back story and rp stuff really. >_<

[Skallagrim]

How is what I said unfair? If a few people come here and want to run a game where they face a gm run monster fest and not each other that certainly doesn't match our ranked element. If they come and want to have a rapid, T2 style match, with canon characters with friends and not detailed posts that again doesn't match "our" elements. That is not to say they might not want to join later, but their initial reason is not to join our competative ranks.

[Fallenreaper]

How is what I said unfair? If a few people come here and want to run a game where they face a gm run monster fest and not each other that certainly doesn't match our ranked element. If they come and want to have a rapid, T2 style match, with canon characters with friends and not detailed posts that again doesn't match "our" elements. That is not to say they might not want to join later, but their initial reason is not to join our competative ranks.

@Skallagrim

It might've been the tone I read it in and apologies for that. It just sounded like it was meant in a negative way which felt unfair to me. And, apologies.

[GreivousKhan]

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

Simpler yes, but rather limiting. Not to mention there's only so many elements you can use before you start to repeat. A base line and good CS tamplate, that can be modified if needed, might much easier for newbies as most I see are just learning the ropes. Like myself. Not to mention, having closely formatted CSes might allow it be to be easier to compared stats and create a positive habit while still allowing creative freedom. Also, maybe a list of powers examples considered too powerful for the tourney level might also help newbies scale their creativity to the proper levels. At least know what might be considered a bad idea or request ideas of how to limit it down. Creativity is just as much as part of the arena as actual writing and balance, at least last I knew.

@Fallenreaper

Exactly my thoughts I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, a format template with more carefully considered stat limits would be good for a fair tourny. Something interesting would be a base human template, with average strength speed and agility, and then the option to min-max on those stats, followed by a low level power.

Almost like a battle between DnD characters.

@MelonHead

I actually made a test format in OLDguild with that 5v5 that laid witness to the tragic horse incident of 2013, and have been thinking about remaking one for this guild complete with a basic class system of sorts. That mostly follows the TVtrops of Glass Canon and The Wall, etc, thus making characters allot more balanced overall, rather then them ending up with prefect strength, speed, and endurance.

Hopefully it will also prevent mini-maxing that Skalla managed, giving himself Godly in every skill set. >.>

Cause the gods forbid he make a character anyone has a chance against, but I digress. See where was this kind of feed back when I asked Chat months/weeks ago? I'll probably install in into the next 5v5 I do, and due to it being only Tier 1's as well as being a group match up (which people prefer going into if it's their first time it seems) it will be a prefect place for rookies to get their feet wet, if I can find the time with all the stuff going on.

[MelonHead]

Shots fired, but ultimately yeah I'd like to see balance in the form of -real- weaknesses and strengths in characters, like actual humans.

[Skallagrim]

My characters all have weaknesses Khan, you just need to learn how to fight.

[Descartes]

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever fought Skallagrim.

[Skallagrim]

I am like Rilla. I don't fight unless I need to.

[GreivousKhan]

My characters all have weaknesses Khan, you just need to learn how to fight.

@Skallagrim

I love when you talk dirty to me.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever fought Skallagrim.

@Descartes

How long have you been here anyhow?

[Descartes]

On old guild I was Yellow Reaver. I've been arena-ing for about 5 years now.

[Rilla]

Let's go down the magical list of things!

@Fallenreaper While it might be limiting and repeating, people tend to be different enough that, in theory, two people playing a fire type person could play them completely different. That would also make for a good fight. Using the same character to see how differently they are played. I did something similar with Luna, who used to RP here.

The thing about making a list is that there is always something forgotten. The basics are simple, basically, no extreme healing, teleportation, etc.

On the subject of Points, if I did make it with points, it would be similar to Bleach - Rising Stars, and focus more on

Strength, Speed, Magic Ability, Defense(split between magical and physical), and maybe intelligence or evasion/ or something, but stats aren't a good way to introduce people. The way I suggested, probably would be. As, personally, it keeps them from getting too fancy, which is where a lot of issues start.

[Fallenreaper]

In coming wall of text, and I tried to condensed it but I was enjoying the conversations a bit too much.

<Snipped quote by Fallenreaper>

Exactly my thoughts I couldn't agree more.

@GreivousKhan

I see.

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

I actually made a test format in OLDguild with that 5v5 that laid witness to the tragic horse incident of 2013, and have been thinking about remaking one for this guild complete with a basic class system of sorts. That mostly follows the TVtrops of Glass Canon and The Wall, etc, thus making characters allot more balanced overall, rather then them ending up with prefect strength, speed, and endurance.

@GreivousKhan

I'm not familiar with those TVtrops. I usually end up comparing my stats using real world examples that people could likely understand or get an idea of, namely say you know which is obviously stronger when it comes to someone with say bear strength vs someone has enough power to deadlift a small truck or two over head. Though I am guilty of ignoring key stat levels in favor of making it a good battle until it can't be or it's a weakness. Namely as most fights are never an actual ram fight (aka, lock horns and push) but mostly who can trap their opponent first.

The stat types I mentioned are also easily researchable or could have links supplied, along with the actually determined number mention. That's a factor which is missing when it comes to actually understanding and putting stats against each other, not to mention what influences affect strength and speed. I never realized, until Yosh explained it to me, about three key factors that can affect a hit's strength which is something not many newbies will put or take in account. That it's not just force but weigh, balance and other aspects to keep in mind. In some cases, getting more interest for some is merely as simple as doing some of the work for them to show them how. These are aspect missing currently to me which while it's great to ask others, people like to be less dependent and have better examples to use for their own attempts.

*One thing I think would be helpful is a link library or list of acceptable textual and number stats ranges for strength, speed, stamina and whatever else at a normal human level that helps determine a PCs level. Also I think more technical guides to when it comes to what needs to be considered in determining how hard a hit is, effects of different terrain on speeds and mobility, how to keep your balance while tossing and receive a hit and etc. AT least for those who want to apply them to battle. Actually having arena fighters put out their own discoveries and experiences out there in tutorials or briefs would help establish the basics of realism, at least for me. Once the newbies have sources to understand that line then they can begin to break them much easier while still producing balances. It's hard to go beyond something you've literally never actually done or have the money/means to learn and some arena newbies could have little to no experience at all in real combat/fighting/martial arts/etc. Which this makes it hard to understand what the body is, and I mean really, capable of and myths that we're lead to believe by movies and stories.

Sadly, I'll keep repeating and stressing this until the cows come home as I was and still am in that damn boat. :P

Hopefully it will also prevent mini-maxing that Skalla managed, giving himself Godly in every skill set. >.>

Cause the gods forbid he make a character anyone has a chance against, but I digress. See where was this kind of feed back when I asked Chat months/weeks ago? I'll probably install in into the next 5v5 I do, and due to it being only Tier 1's as well as being a group match up (which people prefer going into if it's their first time it seems) it will be a prefect place for rookies to get their feet wet, if I can find the time with all the stuff going on.

@GreivousKhan

Not sure? I know when I looked back on the some of the threads, some of the discussion seemed to have been all over the place. Also I wasn't around until recently questioning and help energize things btw. Though I look forward to seeing it as it sounds ideal Khan and might help stir some rookies in the arena though one question... What if you can't get 10 rookies? Are you going to allow vets and more experienced fighters into that? Mainly so they can help teach the rookies physics? :p

Shots fired, but ultimately yeah I'd like to see balance in the form of -real- weaknesses and strengths in characters, like actual humans.

@MelonHead

*points to above statement, the one with the little asterisk*

While it doesn't comment on the statement, the idea in the * paragraph would likely benefit with a list of limitations for a human level which could slowly be peeled away and replaced with others as newbies stem from realism. In some instances, some weaknesses are suppose to be widely known but it always helps to have them reiterated for those who forget or haven't a clue about it. We're all human after all... unless one of you are secretly an Alien AI. *pauses and glances squinting eyes at each of you* Right?

My characters all have weaknesses Khan, you just need to learn how to fight.

@Skallagrim

Considering you have one loss... someone was able to stand up to your PC. Just not sure who and details of it. Though I have to agree with Khan, you have some powerful CSes and seriously intimidating pcs.

@Fallenreaper While it might be limiting and repeating, people tend to be different enough that, in theory, two people playing a fire type person could play them completely different. That would also make for a good fight. Using the same character to see how differently they are played. I did something similar with Luna, who used to RP here.

The thing about making a list is that there is always something forgotten. The basics are simple, basically, no extreme healing, teleportation, etc.

@Rilla

True but in some cases isn't that one aspect that actually brings individuals to the arena in the first place? For me it was a rather big one. Not to mention a muse might not be able to work within confined themes and that's punishing someone for something a bit out of their control. At least to me. However I'm not putting this together and I could be completely wrong, I don't know or will state I know everything. It could do exactly as you want it to but it could also not.

One thing that does likely need be done is defining as the basic realism and levels. No matter what, that needs to be established. Even if you just do human level because I've seen adrenaline (guilty of it in the past myself) be the 'super' boost that allows over the top shenanigans.

I have already pointed out about some people not fully understanding some aspects do affect key things. Unless you aim on everyone battling identical arenas? Then that wouldn't an issue and my last state on it is moot.

On the subject of Points, if I did make it with points, it would be similar to Bleach - Rising Stars, and focus more on

Strength, Speed, Magic Ability, Defense(split between magical and physical), and maybe intelligence or evasion/ or something, but stats aren't a good way to introduce people. The way I suggested, probably would be. As, personally, it keeps them from getting too fancy, which is where a lot of issues start.

@Rilla

True but I usually thought it was usually due to balance. Some people don't list weaknesses along with their strengths for fear of it being used against them in a match. Some don't have weaknesses equal to their strengths. Sadly, with me... It's a habit I try to level out my weaknesses and strengths, giving a bit more strengths than weaknesses. It's something I won't break or stop as without the listed weakness, the PC feels too op to me. Personally, that's why I listed them so they can be used since every match will never be exacting the same and just because you had a weakness listed doesn't mean my PC doesn't have a way to protect or is not aware of it. They wouldn't have 'survived' this long if they didn't know how to defend against people would use it and every case is different because no single match is ever the exact same.

Sorry for the wall, guys, I really am so don't kick my ass. >,<

[Skallagrim]

In coming wall of text, and I tried to condensed it but I was enjoying the conversations a bit too much.

<Snipped quote by Skallagrim>

Considering you have one loss... someone was able to stand up to your PC. Just not sure who and details of it. Though I have to agree with Khan, you have some powerful CSes and seriously intimidating pcs.

Sorry for the wall, guys, I really am so don't kick my ass. >,<

@Fallenreaper

I lost to DJAtomika because I had to stop fighting at the time, I forfeited the fight. I have a lost before, I will lose again. I have powerful characters for a reason, most of them I have had in one iteration or another for years. I have made new characters here, characters with little or no power, but those tend to be overlooked and ignored, so I have stopped trying to appease people and their idea of fairness. If you want to fight me, you have to face what I have. *Shrug* At this point I have little to prove to anyone in terms of textual dueling.

[Fallenreaper]

<Snipped quote by Fallenreaper>

I lost to DJAtomika because I had to stop fighting at the time, I forfeited the fight. I have a lost before, I will lose again. I have powerful characters for a reason, most of them I have had in one iteration or another for years. I have made new characters here, characters with little or no power, but those tend to be overlooked and ignored, so I have stopped trying to appease people and their idea of fairness. If you want to fight me, you have to face what I have. *Shrug* At this point I have little to prove to anyone in terms of textual dueling.

@Skallagrim

Alright, I didn't mean to upset you as it sounds like I did. I merely stated they are intimidating which is true because I only have a human level PC, which as you pointed out with yours, is also being ignored or overlooked. I also said I think Iron's seriously outclassed by almost every single PC posted up PC within the character section of the RPGuild Ranking Headquarters, a fact I still think is true and that is mostly my mentality. I'm not yet confident enough due to lacking practice and rust. As for proving anything, I wasn't asking for it since I'm in it for story, fun and/or improvement than bragging rights if you will excuse me being blunt. If I can gain something positive from a match, despite the outcome, than that's much more than I had before. After all, I'm coming in here as just a rookie trying to gain insight to the arena and players within it to make my own judgement based on actual interactions.

[Skallagrim]

I am hardly upset. I have not started swearing. Hang around long enough and you will get to know everyones quirks.

[MelonHead]

I am hardly upset. I have not started swearing. Hang around long enough and you will get to know everyones quirks.

@Skallagrim

Yeah, people assume something similar about me a fair bit.