[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[Rilla]

It's adorable you think I can sticky things.

becauseicant

[Skallagrim]

Sooooo. . . Yer useless then?

[Rilla]

When you want a fight ranked, remember my uselessness. :(

[Skallagrim]

Pffft. . . I don't fight. I am an old man just sippin' my gin'n juice watching you get beat up.

[Rilla]

Bumping this:

So, as we prepare for the next season of our Arena stuff, I had some stuff I wanted to open up discussions for.

1)There is still no ETA on the upcoming system changes on Mahz' side for the ranking system. So, his current one will suffice as the global system, and I, or another, will handle the season by season rankings. Wagers will be nixed in terms of points, however you can still bet a weapon or item.

2) There has been talk that the current T1 system doesn't work for most, or all, of us. I am wondering why no other system has been proposed, or much talked about. When we wanted a different tier system we got one, though it sort of fell in our laps. Is that what we are also hoping for here?

3) In terms of tournaments, I am an advocate for one of the following:

3a) Either accepting the GM's acceptances
or
3b) Gms offering a discovery phase wherein all tournament participants can chime in on characters before the matches start.

Once matches start then there should be no mention of folks being OP. It really detracts from the actual matches, and in one point, caused one person to drop out. We have to trust that the GM knows what he/she is doing

4) What changes would you like to see in next years ranking system? I am in favor of everyone fighting everyone once, instead of cycling through the same few people. It'll open up people to new fights and keep people from farming points from one person.

5) I am still looking to host the Rookie Tournament, but there are also plans for me to move so my internet access may be dodgy around Thanksgiving and forward. I still want to do a preset character tournament, in terms of powers, but leave physical attributes open to the character creators.

6) What other types of tournaments would you guys like to see. or would you even really like to have the rankings continue?

7) ALso, next month I'll make the thread for the Super Card in December. Has anyone else wanted to join it? I'm confirmed for the show, but not sure who I'll be facing. I think Skally and Melon are set to battle each other there as one of the main events.

-- Possibly more to come ---

[Vordak]

I am all hands for including a discovery phase. While in the end, all is in the GM's hands, a discovery phase can provide a bulk of additional information that they may have overlooked, allowing for a higher-quality re-evaluation.

I don't see what problems you guys have with T1 though. I am satisfied with a bare-to-bone T1, where all preps, defenses and ect. are stripped away to be entirely replaced with common sense, information and logic, since i never really did understand them anyways. Pepper it with some kindhearted leeway and scrupulously detailed character sheets, and you're good to go. What's more to ask for?

[Vordak]

Leeway is fleeting, to be honest. Sometimes its there and sometimes its not. Personally, I'm willing to allow some stuff to happen, if it makes sense, but others may not be so forgiving.

That's why I think fights, competitive or not, have become far too technical to be much fun. Too many numbers, to the point, if you play them straight, you may not be able to do much. Now everything is can you actually do it, blahblahblah.

Rilla

On the topic of balancing out characters - staying true to the number values in their abilities is not top priority. Being a good sport is. A healthy dose of benevolence from both participating sides might be all we need to cure a majority of the problems that arise.

[Descartes]

I might run a high-lander style "tournament" to focus on pumping out as many fights as possible and geared towards newbies.

[Rilla]

I am all hands for including a discovery phase. While in the end, all is in the GM's hands, a discovery phase can provide a bulk of additional information that they may have overlooked, allowing for a higher-quality re-evaluation.

I don't see what problems you guys have with T1 though. I am satisfied with a bare-to-bone T1, where all preps, defenses and ect. are stripped away to be entirely replaced with common sense, information and logic, since i never really did understand them anyways. Pepper it with some kindhearted leeway and scrupulously detailed character sheets, and you're good to go. What's more to ask for?

@Vordak

The pure and complete answer for every possible scenario, in an easy to read format so I ain't gotta read everything.

I am fine with charges and stuff, because it keeps people from going MAGICSPAMMUTHASUCKER

[Skallagrim]

You are okay with change as long as others do the work. I say offer an alternative to T1, and let's evaluate it.

[Skallagrim]

@Rilla Go get me sticky.

[Rilla]

ask Ruby or Heyseuss. I'm heading into work. hahah. work until 2. bed. work at 9.

[Fallenreaper]

Hider

So, as we prepare for the next season of our Arena stuff, I had some stuff I wanted to open up discussions for.

1)There is still no ETA on the upcoming system changes on Mahz' side for the ranking system. So, his current one will suffice as the global system, and I, or another, will handle the season by season rankings. Wagers will be nixed in terms of points, however you can still bet a weapon or item.

I’ve not got much to say on that currently, though it’s good to hear.

2) There has been talk that the current T1 system doesn't work for most, or all, of us. I am wondering why no other system has been proposed, or much talked about. When we wanted a different tier system we got one, though it sort of fell in our laps. Is that what we are also hoping for here?

From what I’ve seen and after mulling over it, I’m currently starting to believe it’s not T-1, but the fact not everyone understands it as well as others are assuming or have a firm grasp on it. Taking that in mind, I think reasonably, Logic dictates over any established rule . However, it seems to have been overlooked in many cases from what I’ve observed recently as a third party. This has likely lead to issues and beliefs that the T-1 system doesn’t work.

In addition, it’s not exactly easy to distinguish talk about Tiers or T-1 from each other, at least to me. I think mainly because both topics usually end up following each other rather often shifting from one to another shortly after. Don’t believe me, look back on the conversations in different thread and you’ll see T-1 or Tiers shortly following in the conversation which makes clarification over the actual problem an issue.

I understand, to an alright level, the T-1 basics and how to apply them in combat on a base level. Aka as a human PC. That isn’t hard when using a weapon I’m familiar with, but I agree with Melon. The T-1 examples cover the basic, often with merely melee, and has little to no decent examples that cover how important the basics are in a match that includes magic. This makes it very difficult, unless you just leap in, to actually understand and apply it with that addition. It also doesn’t explain what happens when a magic prep is blocked, interrupted, fails/succeeds against a defense of higher/lower value or how a magic prep it is considered successful, something that many newbies need to understand before having the confidence to leap in.

In addition, realistically an individual or being of higher intelligence will never simply do one thing at a time. As fair as it might be, they would try to win the battle and likely try to do 2-3 actions per post from preparing an attack/spell to actually lashing out to wound at the same time.

Logically, at least in my head, doing too much at once can lead to weakening the effect/power of some things (multitask has its limits folks even for geniuses) or making it less accurate due to split focus. Then again, I’m still learning this and yet to step into the arena officially, which means I can be wrong in believing that is how reality works.

Now moving onto the issues of the Tiers. We all, in some form or way, agree that the Tier system is completely flawed and rather...shitty as it doesn’t seem to do what it is originally meant to. And a few have stated that bitching about it won’t change it so rather than be a broken record, let’s fix this issue by seeking out the main problems with the Tier system.

So the main questions that need to be answered are some that are pretty basic:

What is the Tier System’s sole purpose?

Why is it necessary?

What influences does it, if any, have over fights in the arena? Both in noncompetitive and competitive, tourney and non?

Can we do without it and how well would that work for the arena over all?

The examples are too vague or less specific. Well, what would be better ones or the best options to replace them? How do those match up with created original PCs?

Are they distinct enough for everyone to see the difference between each tier/level and not blend/confused them?

Does it help with PC creation if a player is aiming for a key tier/level for their character?

What are some possible fixes and how can we obtain them? (Be very, very specific and provide examples on this question to prove your point. A hard and heavy motto I relay to others I work with is simple: if you take things away or have issues with something, you better be prepared to provide something in return. Else, it is pointless to even address it at all if you can’t be part of the solution.)

There’s likely better or more questions that can be addressed for the Tier system, but these, to me, keep slipping under the discussions and seemed often overlooked. They are also the first to come to my head as well when thinking of it and how to create a new one. A good start is answering those questions in a clear way for many people’s understanding.

3) In terms of tournaments, I am an advocate for one of the following:

3a) Either accepting the GM's acceptances
or
3b) Gms offering a discovery phase wherein all tournament participants can chime in on characters before the matches start.

Once matches start then there should be no mention of folks being OP. It really detracts from the actual matches, and in one point, caused one person to drop out. We have to trust that the GM knows what he/she is doing

I see a few issues either way, to be honest, and no clear way to solve them for either method.

However, option 3b feels more like setting an individual up for a lynching mob then anything to me. Especially if the group is a bunch of newbies and they spot a PC that seems ‘unbeatable’ then aim to nerf said individual quite badly. They will likely want to rip that PC apart and that could be in the worse way. People are almost rarely pleasant in their statements when it comes to issues they have, especially when not directly acknowledged or addressed, and it’s very hard to determine the tone over the net. Most times, it’s assumed negative which leads out to full flaming each other rather than solutions. Currently, I'm completely calm and reasonable while writing this but I bet someone will read it negatively at some point and think I'm trying to start an argument. Yes, everyone in the arena has a right to their opinion. However how you address things reflects on the arena and players in it more than I think people realize.

Yes, Rilla's b3) option gets the bad blood out earlier and allows the GM to realize which Players might be the most problematic, but it doesn’t mean the feelings won’t still linger. Or influence the match in some way. Especially if it delays a tourney from even getting started due to addressing more than one individual's issues. I can see it could put extra stress on the GM before the actual fight has even started and that doesn’t mean it won’t carry over.

Though be honest, the only way to see if this method will work is by creating a mini event and requesting volunteers that don’t interact regularly enough to establish trust. If they aren't too comfortable with their fellow players or don't even trust each other to be fair, this method I feel causes more issues than it solves. For example: if you put Rilla as Gm with players being Melonhead, Skallagrim, IN and Khan in that situation then it would most likely work out fine without issues. The question is: Will that work in most cases? With complete strangers and seasoned fighters, without more issues than it solves? If not, it’s not a very fitting solution.

As for Yosh's suggestion and the views on that from others, I can see both points pretty well as I’ve had experience with having multiple GMs who’s styles don’t really match and not all mesh well. However, I feel the mention of delaying a tourney from starting is a bit moot. The reason I stated this is because compared to getting 3 individuals to cooperate compared to several players agreeing or at least accepting the terms, the prior is a lot less time consuming because only those 3 or so individual’s opinion matter. While in the later you have half a dozen people who could and likely will continue arguing just for the sake of it which can literally take forever. It’s just like getting players to vote on something and trying to be fair by getting an answer from everyone: bigger pain than it’s worth.

The 3 or so GM grading might best work if the GMs were using the same basic system to grade each CS, all sharing their results and determining if the character entering will match up against everyone else's’ to make the fights interesting and fairest they can be. Usually that means to me stripping the PCs down to their natural abilities (Aka, omitting magic, equipment and anything that is normally removed during a strip search) and determining the advantages there, then going to equipment stage, magic stage and finally any additions that don’t belong in any of the earlier ones. Determining how each thing alters the limitations or increasing advantages based on what is added and if it is still reasonably counterable. IF at the end or at any level that advantage hasn’t a possible counter by most the players in the tourney then make a note and present it as something to address. Yes it sounds simple but I’m aware it’s likely more complicated than I can wrap my head around.

4) What changes would you like to see in next years ranking system? I am in favor of everyone fighting everyone once, instead of cycling through the same few people. It'll open up people to new fights and keep people from farming points from one person.

I think it would be nice to give a reason for branching off away from the same individuals over and over, through keep in mind some personalities might not mix well. Through how many people are actually within the ranking system? Who are we able to seek out and request a fight from for ranking? There’s no real list of people that I have been able to see or know if they are active. So those involved with the Ranking system might be much smaller than you think, which can be an issue because you would have to fight the same person many times or end the season prematurely.

5) I am still looking to host the Rookie Tournament, but there are also plans for me to move so my internet access may be dodgy around Thanksgiving and forward. I still want to do a preset character tournament, in terms of powers, but leave physical attributes open to the character creators.

That sounds like you can expect a number of Hulk natured PCs in that one to me. Everyone will be gunning for the max stats, or at least the competitive ones. Unless you have some sort of limit or way to prevent that, anyone that isn’t physically at their peak will depend mostly on their magic to win which can be good or bad. Yes, I didn’t exactly state if this was good or bad but I felt that was an issue to bring up to be honest. Not to mention what about magic that actually assist physical stats?

As for during that time, why not plan out the Tourney and use that to provide CS examples, establish limits to max physical power, rules, etc. And also reflect on the issues in the last tourneys that other players have held, determining a way to prevent those from becoming one in yours? Interest check and post advertisement might also be a good to get as much fresh blood as possible, including what determines a newbie from a seasoned fighter.

6) What other types of tournaments would you guys like to see. or would you even really like to have the rankings continue?

• Pure Melee: Both using just fists and basic weapons, common weapons. Roman Gladiator style a bit.
• Low level magic: Minor magic that’s on the much lower end of the magic classification. Minor element bending to illusions, street level magic, etc.
• Monster: tourney actually based off creatures, from humanoid to not so much with a reasonable limit. (curious how many people would be willing to give this a shot actually.)
• Team Tourneys: I understand this would be a bit harder as you risk people vanishing or dropping and leave people without a partner, but doesn’t mean I don’t want to see that any less. Personally it might be fun to see the different pairing and characters people create together for it.

Those are a few I’m willing to toss out as any others, I would have trouble figuring out balances and limitations.

7) ALso, next month I'll make the thread for the Super Card in December. Has anyone else wanted to join it? I'm confirmed for the show, but not sure who I'll be facing. I think Skally and Melon are set to battle each other there as one of the main events.

Super Card? *tilts head* I have no idea what that is…

@Rilla I’m also still working on that post for the rp, brain is just a bit mushy now after writing this. >,< And I'm pretty sure I've reiterated some points that others have made and I apologize for that. However in my defense, it's not easy reading through about 2-3 pages worth of conversation and trying to cover it all in under 5 pages on a gdoc which is what that all came out. Also, I tried to keep it polite as possible and it might've came off as rambling because to be honest, these are my thoughts after being a backseat lurker for a bit.

*braces to be chewed out or torn to pieces*

[GreivousKhan]

*braces to be chewed out or torn to pieces*

@Fallenreaper

I'm sorry but when did you think we started caring about your opinions noob. :P

Anyway....

1)There is still no ETA on the upcoming system changes on Mahz' side for the ranking system. So, his current one will suffice as the global system, and I, or another, will handle the season by season rankings. Wagers will be nixed in terms of points, however you can still bet a weapon or item.

A)Don't have much to say about this really.

2) There has been talk that the current T1 system doesn't work for most, or all, of us. I am wondering why no other system has been proposed, or much talked about. When we wanted a different tier system we got one, though it sort of fell in our laps. Is that what we are also hoping for here?

A)I think T1 one is perfectly fine, its just that most people have no real understanding of it really. For example, the prep section is what is really confusing people. I mean people seem to think you can charge any thing. When in fact the truth is - as far as the Eden version goes- you only prep abilities that specifically NEED preps. I also think only one ability should be allowed to be prepped at a time. Common sense does not really cover that, as one would believe if they have a separate generator, that system should be able to charge up alongside another ability they have. (Mostly true when you start introducing advanced technology really)

3) In terms of tournaments, I am an advocate for one of the following:

3a) Either accepting the GM's acceptances
or
3b) Gms offering a discovery phase wherein all tournament participants can chime in on characters before the matches start.

Once matches start then there should be no mention of folks being OP. It really detracts from the actual matches, and in one point, caused one person to drop out. We have to trust that the GM knows what he/she is doing

A) I agree with there being no complaining long after characters are accepted and matches start, specially later into the tournament. To this effect, I think we should just ban argumentative British people. :P

4) What changes would you like to see in next years ranking system? I am in favor of everyone fighting everyone once, instead of cycling through the same few people. It'll open up people to new fights and keep people from farming points from one person.

A) A cycling system might be interesting but how would you go about implementing it and what form would it take? Like a cool-down time before you can fight that person in a ranked match again?

5) I am still looking to host the Rookie Tournament, but there are also plans for me to move so my internet access may be dodgy around Thanksgiving and forward. I still want to do a preset character tournament, in terms of powers, but leave physical attributes open to the character creators.

A) I feel a tournament is not the way to go about getting new people in. To ruble with new folks is you have no idea if they can even be reliable. A few dropouts in a tourney can be disastrous.

6) What other types of tournaments would you guys like to see. or would you even really like to have the rankings continue?

A) would need to give this one some thought. I think mid, low, and high tiers have all be done already at some point between new guild and old.

7) ALso, next month I'll make the thread for the Super Card in December. Has anyone else wanted to join it? I'm confirmed for the show, but not sure who I'll be facing. I think Skally and Melon are set to battle each other there as one of the main events.

A) What is this super-card? 0.0

[Skallagrim]

The supercard is the end of the year story based fighting to set up next years potential character storylines.

[GreivousKhan]

The supercard is the end of the year story based fighting to set up next years potential character storylines.

@Skallagrim

Is this just one 1v1 fight or a few?

[Skallagrim]

Its a lot of one vs one but if you can come up with a brawl scenario it could be worked in.

[MelonHead]

A) I agree with there being no complaining long after characters are accepted and matches start, specially later into the tournament. To this effect, I think we should just ban argumentative British people. :P

@GreivousKhan

Never question authority.

or else

[Fallenreaper]

<Snipped quote by Fallenreaper>

I'm sorry but when did you think we started caring about your opinions noob. :P

@GreivousKhan

No one said you had to care, part of the reason I put the 5 page reply in a hider, though last I checked you all were interested in my thoughts on stuff concerning the arena. :P

I'm only trying to solve issues that I see and keep in mind logic. We aren't exactly simple organisms and while it might be more balanced and easier, it sort feels like Logic is taking a back seat in this regards.

Taking what I've seen in the tourney and other such stuff:

A few questions that come to mind about preps.

• What usually requires a prep? Just magic or can other abilities that aren't physically defend-able require them?
• Is only magic that needs it?
• What sort of things can be considered not needing a prep and why?
• What sort of descriptions can be classed as preps for magic or an ability?
• What happens when you do a prep, can you still defend yourself while doing it or when someone goes to attack, in order not to get hit do you have to stop? Would that just cancel out all the preps?
• Is a prep's time based on the power level of it and if you cast it premature, should it have a penalty? Or just lowered in power that is possible?
• How do you determine when an interruption is successful?

These are only a few questions off the top of my head that I don't know where or how to find the answers to.

[Rilla]

What usually requires a prep? Just magic or can other abilities that aren't physically defend-able require them?

Usually just magic, but anything can be prepped. Any ability you possess, unless stated as passive, and even then, can use a prep to make it stronger. That's what preps, and sometimes interchangably charges, are for. To increase the power, or other stated /thing/ of an ability.

Is only magic that needs it?

No, but primarily it's what its used for. Preps on other things affect different stuff. You can prep a gunshot by making it more accurate, you can prep a sword swing to make it more powerful(often doesn't matter, as some folks will just swing full force anyway).

What sort of things can be considered not needing a prep and why?

Mostly things that normally don't need one. You don't need to prep a gun, but you can. Passive abilities as well. Skills, which I classify as different than magic.

What sort of descriptions can be classed as preps for magic or an ability?

Basically anything, a sharpening focus, a complex movement, anything, so long as you note that it IS specifically being used to prepare an ability. For example:

Kei'taro's preps are noted by his tattoos beginning to glow as specific to the ability. If Alphonse wanted to sharpen the edge of his blades using Chi, then they might glow light blue.

What happens when you do a prep, can you still defend yourself while doing it or when someone goes to attack, in order not to get hit do you have to stop? Would that just cancel out all the preps?

You can, depending on what you need to do for a prep. If your prep requires you to focus intently for x amount of seconds, then you can't defend, or if you do, it cancels it. For me, it only cancels out the most recent of preps. So if I've already prepped twice, going for three, and you manage to stop me - I still have two preps, just not the third. This could, obviously, be different for others.

Is a prep's time based on the power level of it and if you cast it premature, should it have a penalty? Or just lowered in power that is possible?

The longer you prep, the strong your attack will be/the sharper your accuracy(if using a gun), etc., etc. If you use it with one prep, it won't be as strong as someone who casts it with two preps. Now, if you have it written that you can cast your magic without a prep, but it has a cost, be sure to factor that in as well.

How do you determine when an interruption is successful?

An interrupt is successful when it's logical, basically. If someone is trying to do too many actions in a post, you can interrupt between any one of them if possible. If I'm throwing 100 punches(Stated in a post), you can stop me at 2, 5, 43, 78, 99, whichever number you want if possible. If you can successfully do that, without metagaming, godmodding, or otherwise cheating, then you're successful. It basically will cancel out the entirety of my post after the point in which you interrupt me. So if you stop me at 43, then I have 57 punches that just aren't there anymore.

All answers are based on my own interpretation of T1, @Skallagrim, @Melonhead, DJ, even @Vordak may have a different view on each question. @Fallenreaper