[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[MelonHead]

Not really. If you have a fire user, and I am in a corner what stops you from setting the building on fire to get me out of my hole and into a better place for you to engage me? If you use water what stops you from creating some water effect or darkness or any of the other magics people have. If you are locked in melee person but have a shield that can stop a giants blow, yeah you can move in and be safe. If you are a flier, well then I hate you because either I come out or it becomes a draw. There are many, many ways to fight a gun fighter. The issue is most people don't actually think and use the terrain to their advantage while gun fighters have to.

@Skallagrim

Well, because they're a melee character so they don't have all those options.

Fire would be a particularly useful tool, though if they move within sight of the gunman to use it they're going to get shot before their fire can kill them, the same as most magics.

I'm not saying gunmen can't be fought of course, I'm just pointing out that at equal tier levels someone with a gun is going to beat someone with a sword 9 times out of 10 just by the merit of their weapons capabilities, as opposed to any particular writing skill or originality of attack. Also, the range of terrain which favours a gunman is absolutely huge. Pretty much any area with line of sight longer than five meters the gun reigns supreme, until you get past its barrel it will kill you at any range up to 300 feet.

The compromise in my opinion that could potentially balance things in a tournament setting is by making guns a significant tier increaser, setting even a completely ordinary human at the level of a T2 or T3 character on the old system, ensuring that their body at least is fallible to offset the inherent power of a gun. For example, if you gave the Clockwork Man of mine an automatic weapon, he would be damn near unbeatable for anyone save those of a significant higher tier than him, due to his equally powerful physical characteristics.

Just an idea, I'm going to go get drunk, later.

[Innue]

Ok. So you are dealing with the player not the character. If a player is a dickhead, no matter what they use; magic, guns, or galaxies they will be a dickhead getting in the perfect hit, the never miss and the always on target shots. If you are fighting T1 there really is no inherent problems with gunfighters.

@Skallagrim

Forgive me for not believing balance should be derived from this. Bullets move too fast at tiers they are allowed to exist that they aren't ACTUALLY manageable.

Yes, if you are fighting T1 there are the inherent problems with guns which I've discussed ad nauseum. It is STILL dependent on the level of power being permitted.

[Skallagrim]

Innue that's fine the argument is going no where. You don't like guns fine. I do. It's all good.

[Innue]

Innue that's fine the argument is going no where. You don't like guns fine. I do. It's all good.

@Skallagrim

<--- Has a thread specifically about guns.

I just like them well moderated.

[LeeRoy]

Most characters in the Arena are basically immune to bullets.

Be it by movement speed, durability, precognitive movement, so on and so forth.

Basically, guns are worthless, and the argument that they need to be regulated is totally moot.

Considering that guns are very limited in what they can do.

Even if they have a bottomless clip, they can only fire at a certain speed. They can only travel in a straight line with a slight decay. They can only hit with so much force.

Guns don't kill people in the Arena.

People kill people in the Arena.

[Innue]

Most characters in the Arena are basically immune to bullets.

Be it by movement speed, durability, precognitive movement, so on and so forth.

Basically, guns are worthless, and the argument that they need to be regulated is totally moot.

Considering that guns are very limited in what they can do.

Even if they have a bottomless clip, they can only fire at a certain speed. They can only travel in a straight line with a slight decay. They can only hit with so much force.

Guns don't kill people in the Arena.

People kill people in the Arena.

@LeeRoy

This ONLY applies at significantly higher tiers of power unless the gun user is incredible incompetent.

[LeeRoy]

This applies to anyone above human levels, period.

[Innue]

This applies to anyone above human levels, period.

@LeeRoy

All I can legitimately say to this is no. Melon has done a fantastic job explaining it as well. I'd suggest you read through his comments on it if you haven't already done so.

[LeeRoy]

I strongly stand my ground on that point, mainly due to the writing styles that I've witnessed on this site and others. Anyone with abilities past those of human, can close the gap between them and a marksman quick enough that the usefulness of marksmen comes into question immediately.

As well, unless they're getting shot in the head on the very first turn of the fight. Which would be a low down, scumbag thing to do. No Supherhuman melee fighter is going to instantly die from a bullet wound either. Hindered, maybe, but die? Hell to the no.

Hell, a human can take more than one bullet and keep kicking. Bullets aren't a guaranteed instant kill even in real life. Guns aren't these all powerful sticks of death that everyone makes them out to be.

[Innue]

I strongly stand my ground on that point, mainly due to the writing styles that I've witnessed on this site and others. Anyone with abilities past those of human, can close the gap between them and a marksman quick enough that the usefulness of marksmen comes into question immediately.

As well, unless they're getting shot in the head on the very first turn of the fight. Which would be a low down, scumbag thing to do. No Supherhuman melee fighter is going to instantly die from a bullet wound either. Hindered, maybe, but die? Hell to the no.

Hell, a human can take more than one bullet and keep kicking. Bullets aren't a guaranteed instant kill even in real life. Guns aren't these all powerful sticks of death that everyone makes them out to be.

@LeeRoy

As stated, I don't agree with that being a balancing mechanism (the players) for weapons. The other issues still persist.

And no, you need to be significantly past human (by a lot) to dodge bullets at 50 feet. As I said before, you would be in a significantly higher tier with those kinds of abilities. Just because people haven't had others adhere to these things in the past doesn't mean it is balanced. I can do the math on the speed you would need to actually dodge them effectively at that range if you so wish me to.

[Vordak]

Leeroy, i dare you to say any of the tournament's participants can go up against a normal human with a machinegun and close the gap quick enough. Using cover? Sure, but not by outdoing them with sheer speed or durability, even if they are superhuman.

[Innue]

Leeroy, i dare you to say any of the tournament's participants can go up against a normal human with a machinegun and close the gap quick enough. Using cover? Sure, but not by outdoing them with sheer speed or durability, even if they are superhuman.

@Vordak

Even using cover would be difficult in terms of text roleplay.

[LeeRoy]

At 100 feet distance?
Handgun? You're going to get hit.
Semi-Automatic? You're going to be riddled with bullets.
Fully-Automatic? You're going to die.

At 50 feet distance?
Handgun? Easy enough. Might get clipped.
Semi-Automatic? You're going to get hit, but they're not going to chew through you before you reach them.
Fully-Automatic? You're going to be riddled with bullets, whether or not that kills you depends on what you are. As well, it depends on how well they can deal with the recoil of a fully automatic weapon, because that exists for normal humans.

At 10 feet distance?
Handgun? You won't even get shot.
Semi-Automatic? Might get clipped.
Fully-Automatic? You're going to get hit, but they're not going to chew through you before you reach them.

[Innue]

At 100 feet distance?
Handgun? You're going to get hit.
Semi-Automatic? You're going to be riddled with bullets.
Fully-Automatic? You're going to die.

At 50 feet distance?
Handgun? Easy enough. Might get clipped.
Semi-Automatic? You're going to get hit, but they're not going to chew through you before you reach them.
Fully-Automatic? You're going to be riddled with bullets, whether or not that kills you depends on what you are. As well, it depends on how well they can deal with the recoil of a fully automatic weapon, because that exists for normal humans.

At 10 feet distance?
Handgun? You won't even get shot.
Semi-Automatic? Might get clipped.
Fully-Automatic? You're going to get hit, but they're not going to chew through you before you reach them.

@LeeRoy

As I asked before, do you want me to preform the math?

[Giant]

Uh, howdy. First time posting in Arena. I kind of want to hone my combat/action writing, since I feel I don't practice it enough.

Anyone want to battle? I usually play human normal characters (in fact, with little to no combat training) so a combat with me would be a fairly chaotic, sloppy one.

[DJAtomika]

I'm thinking a demonstration is in order, during which(perhaps if Innue and Skallagrim) both can demonstrate their respective points during the posts.

It's one thing to explain it. Another to actually put it in motion.

@Rilla

I have been itching for a fight. Alright then.

@Skallagrim, since it's been so long, humour me. I challenge you to a demonstration duel. I have a modern day gun fighter and soldier, you use whoever you want.

I've read through the two pages worth of writing and I have to say it's an interesting debate, but I think the only to really settle this is in the arena.

So, Skall, I pit my Korean commando Cho Sun-Jin against whoever you choose. Maybe to figure out stuff, less a fight and more of a demonstration on this guns vs magic thing.

Also to shake off my rust. I have fought in forever. XD

[DJAtomika]

@Giant Or, alternatively, you, if you do so choose.

[LeeRoy]

The answer to your question is math of my own.

A normal human being with a BELOW average running speed of 10 mph. Can cross 10 feet in less than 1 second. As 10mph translates into 14 fps.

The person being rushed has less than 1 second to react. While that's not unreasonable, people can fire guns that quickly, we're talking about a superhuman and a normal human.

Let's amp the math up. 10 mph can cross 100 feet in about 7 seconds.

Let's amp the speed up. To Olympian levels.

20 mph.

100 feet in 3.5 seconds.

Record breaking speeds.

30 mph.

100 feet in 1.75 seconds.

Superhuman speeds.

50 mph.

100 feet in 1.3.

Let's put this onto Godfrey's flight speed.

60 mph.

1.13 seconds.

These would all still be under the LOW tier speeds listed in the Nexus of Worlds Multiverse hosted by Skallagrim a while back. These aren't even the peak of that Tier.

Your average sports car can move at 200 to 220 mph. So let's do the math at that.

.03 seconds to cross 100 feet.

I restate my point from before.

Guns don't kill people in the Arena.
People kill people in the Arena.

[Innue]

The answer to your question is math of my own.

A normal human being with a BELOW average running speed of 10 mph. Can cross 10 feet in less than 1 second. As 10mph translates into 14 fps.

The person being rushed has less than 1 second to react. While that's not unreasonable, people can fire guns that quickly, we're talking about a superhuman and a normal human.

Let's amp the math up. 10 mph can cross 100 feet in about 7 seconds.

Let's amp the speed up. To Olympian levels.

20 mph.

100 feet in 3.5 seconds.

Record breaking speeds.

30 mph.

100 feet in 1.75 seconds.

Superhuman speeds.

50 mph.

100 feet in 1.3.

Let's put this onto Godfrey's flight speed.

60 mph.

1.13 seconds.

These would all still be under the LOW tier speeds listed in the Nexus of Worlds Multiverse hosted by Skallagrim a while back. These aren't even the peak of that Tier.

Your average sports car can move at 200 to 220 mph. So let's do the math at that.

.03 seconds to cross 100 feet.

I restate my point from before.

Guns don't kill people in the Arena.
People kill people in the Arena.

@LeeRoy

You didn't take into account acceleration time - which is important for any of these calculations.

[DJAtomika]

Dammit not even five minutes from being awake and the debate has resumed.

At least lemme grab my popcorn first D: