[OOC] Jungle Fever: A Vietnam War Survival RP

[idlehands]

Holy crap...that's some research.

I found this. Might be of some use, goes over both military and Vietnamese terms and slang.

Vietnam Glossary

http://www.vietvet.org/glossary.htm

[HeySeuss]

Not really research; recollection from previous research. ;)

[idlehands]

Not really research; recollection from previous research. ;)

@HeySeuss

Impressive though, I do remember hearing how the M16 was really touchy and prone to jamming vs is the superior AK 47 that is truly all weather and retard proof.

[HeySeuss]

<Snipped quote by HeySeuss>

Impressive though, I do remember hearing how the M16 was really touchy and prone to jamming vs is the superior AK 47 that is truly all weather and retard proof.

@idlehands

The Army insisted on a type of powder that was not workable in the M-16 and that counted for a majority of the problems, though a chrome-lined bore to prevent barrel corrosion and a cleaner, less fouling sort of primer were also problems. Very early on, a forward assist was added to allow for the operator to chamber a round in case of feeding difficulty, but that wasn't much in the face of the fundamental problem -- the army wanted to slot in a type of ammo that was not going to work in the gun.

Not only that, magazines were inferior and the springs weren't strong enough to feed well.

In ideal conditions, the M-16 does a good job, though it is a precision instrument that assumes a trained operator that maintains his weapon. The AK is designed for East Bloc and Soviet conscripts with minimal training to be durable and keep working in the field. Accuracy is sacrificed, ergonomics are not a priority and so forth. The weapon is designed to function while pretty dirty, for example.

Different design philosophies at work, basically. In this case, the Soviet bureaucracy managed to produce an excellent weapon and not fuck it up with insane demands predicated on unrealistic expectations, such as trying to force a gun that's already been designed to fire a different type of ammo without redesigning it. The ammo is cheaper to redesign and produce, which is what happened -after- a lot of US troops encountered reliability problems with their weapons. It took Congress to basically start demanding the heads (and careers) of responsible parties to make that happen. Of course, back then, congress had a lot more veterans in the ranks too.

[RoadRash]

Yeah, true story. Most of the 'Nam vets I ride with still refuse to own an AR-platform rifle, even though the weapons have been massively improved. The modern incarnations of the rifles are outstanding, but those originals were definitely shit-sandwiches. I'm actually planning on having Davis snag an AK sooner or later. In the close confines of a jungle, the accuracy differences between the AK and M16 are negligible. A max-effective range of 400m is still a good bit farther than you'll be shooting in the trees.

[HeySeuss]

Yeah, true story. Most of the 'Nam vets I ride with still refuse to own an AR-platform rifle, even though the weapons have been massively improved. The modern incarnations of the rifles are outstanding, but those originals were definitely shit-sandwiches. I'm actually planning on having Davis snag an AK sooner or later. In the close confines of a jungle, the accuracy differences between the AK and M16 are negligible. A max-effective range of 400m is still a good bit farther than you'll be shooting in the trees.

@RoadRash

Yeah, they're way better now. Hell, I own an AR-15, pony Colt out of the same factory turning out the M4's for the military, using the same processes. I passed up on an AK, the semi auto kind, or an SKS because I've seen the damage that East Bloc ammo does to a weapon when it's not thoroughly cleaned out (corrosive primers), and I decided that I didn't want anything more complicated than a bolt action Mosin if I was going to be screwing with that. Kept reasonably clean, the AR works just fine. With good magazines and decent quality ammo, not a problem.

Anyway, the Viet Cong also fielded a lot of different weapons that weren't standard. Old French weapons, stolen American weapons, whatever they had access to in the last twenty to thirty years. America supplied a lot of weapons to the ARVN, and that means those weapons show up elsewhere. But VC units also used older Chinese and Russian type weapons as well; Mosin Nagant carbines, SKS'es, and quite a few M1 carbines (because Vietnamese troops found these guns handier than full sized battle rifles like the Garand.) One can also reasonably expect to see BAR's and M3 grease guns and the like, though the BAR isn't necessarily the weapon of choice for a lot of Vietnamese. DP28's and their derivatives might well show up alongside RPD's, ditto with the various Russian and Chinese/Vietnamese knockoffs of the PPSH burp guns. The French stuff include MAT-49's, MAS-49's and MAS-36's, as well as their various machineguns like the Mle 1924-29, though these are probably running out of ammo...except, perhaps the MAT-49 which fires 9mm.

RPG-2's were popular too; they were reloadable and din't have much range, but hey, like the man said, it's a jungle.

In the Central Highlands though, American troops could expect to encounter a lot of NVA/VNAF as well as VC, and probably a uniformity of weaponry and good ammo supply among the local VC, thanks to the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

[RoadRash]

Yup. I've got an AR and an AK both, I just make sure to scrub the hell out of the AK when I put that Wolf ammo through it. She's a great little gun though; ugly as sin but does the job.

I've got homework to bang out, but expect a reply in the next few hours, after I've finished the more time-critical of my assignments and worked out a good escape route in my head.

[Tearstone]

Great information on the weapons. It explains a lot as to why I always heard the AK series had trouble with feeding/jamming. The sad thing is, I've also heard and seen that the AK series were meant to be tougher and more rugged than the soldiers that used them, to the point that Russian soldiers used to do pushups ON the AK's, with pressure being put on the grip and mag well (with mag inserted) and all. I've heard stories of guys putting 10,000 rounds through the AK, pulling it apart, dipping a shoe lace in used 10w-30 motor oil and running it through the barrel and slapping it back together and putting another 10k rounds through it. If you upgrade the internals a bit, put match grade barrel on one, with match ammo, I hear you can get quite a bit of accuracy out of them.

As for the M-16's feeding and ammo problems, yeah... that I definitely knew about. That's why I went with the newer M16A1 for Eli. Chrome internals, forward assist, and the newest of the A1's also had the brass deflector. That's a little thing, but I don't feel like having 5.56 hickeys all the time.

Great info all around, HeySeuss and RoadRash.

I want to get both platforms when I get enough disposable income. I've been really really poor the last few years but that should be changing soon, which means I can start picking up some needs/wants that have a bigger pricetag.

Edit: Posting now...

[TomeBinder]

As a British person,

I started with a 177 Gat Gun at age 5.

Then at age 8 I got a .22 air rifle.

At age 11 I went paint balling.

At age 15 I realised how much my country sucks when it comes to gun ownership, so I took up archery. Which was fun but costly + hassle.

At age 23 I went clay pigeon shooting with some kinda pump action real gun. I remember the shoulder bruising.

And that's it. That's all I'll ever know of fire arms... still, thank God there's always wikipedia/youtube for me to go wank over. Oh, oh, and I have a deactivated Mills grenade. So yeah. On the plus side, at least there's only a 10% chance of a gun being real, if one ever gets pulled on me.

EDIT: Oh, and if the Queen ever calls me up to serve in a longbow levy for our future invasion of the U.S, I'll be ready.

[HeySeuss]

As a British person,

I started with a 177 Gat Gun at age 5.

Then at age 8 I got a .22 air rifle.

At age 11 I went paint balling.

At age 15 I realised how much my country sucks when it comes to gun ownership, so I took up archery. Which was fun but costly + hassle.

At age 23 I went clay pigeon shooting with some kinda pump action real gun. I remember the shoulder bruising.

And that's it. That's all I'll ever know of fire arms... still, thank God there's always wikipedia/youtube for me to go wank over. Oh, oh, and I have a deactivated Mills grenade. So yeah. On the plus side, at least there's only a 10% chance of a gun being real, if one ever gets pulled on me.

EDIT: Oh, and if the Queen ever calls me up to serve in a longbow levy for our future invasion of the U.S, I'll be ready.

@TomeBinder

I own two Lee Enfields, and enjoy the rifles immensely. Most of what I own is bolt action stuff.

[TomeBinder]

<Snipped quote by TomeBinder>

I own two Lee Enfields, and enjoy the rifles immensely. Most of what I own is bolt action stuff.

@HeySeuss

I held one. That's as close I got to an MKIII. History teacher had a deactivated one he kept in a glass case. I remember it being heavy and quite clumsy, but I guess that's what you'd expect from what - an 80 year old weapon? Beautiful thing to look at.

[RoadRash]

The majority of my long-guns are for hunting. Rifles of various sizes for different kinds of game (I prefer to do my hunting in Colorado during school breaks, and the .300 Win-Mag I use there for Elk would blow one of these little Oklahoma white tail deer in half.)

The AR is for coyotes on the family farm, and because they're great fun. I got the AK because I had deployment money to spend, and that's really the only reason. I love it, but it's not really a gun that I own for a reason.

I do have a shotgun specifically for keeping hoodlums out of my apartment (I'm in a part of town where that's a real problem). I got my concealed-carry permit when I left the Corps for much the same reason. When I'm out riding with my club, I carry my .38 or my little .380 Auto.

EDIT : @TomeBinder They're heavy partly because they're old, but also because that's part of the design. Remember, this was before high-capacity magazines, and close-quarters fighting was still a very common occurrence. You wanted a rifle that could stand up to regular bayonet use, and double as a club in a pinch. It's rare things go that direction in modern combat, but we still issue bayonets in the Marine Corps. I don't remember if the army does or not, but I had one in Afghanistan.

[HeySeuss]

<Snipped quote by HeySeuss>

I held one. That's as close I got to an MKIII. History teacher had a deactivated one he kept in a glass case. I remember it being heavy and quite clumsy, but I guess that's what you'd expect from what - an 80 year old weapon? Beautiful thing to look at.

@TomeBinder

Actually, I find the SMLE to be well balanced, good trigger and an excellent bolt. The recoil is actually quite gentle for a full sized rifle firing a full sized cartridge, and I have a Swiss K-31, Russian 1891/30, and Springfield 1903 to compare that to; working on getting a Yugoslavian M48 as well. I own the No.1 Mk III SMLE and the Enfield No. 4 Mk. II.

[RoadRash]

<Snipped quote by TomeBinder>

Actually, I find the SMLE to be well balanced, good trigger and an excellent bolt. The recoil is actually quite gentle for a full sized rifle firing a full sized cartridge, and I have a Swiss K-31, Russian 1891/30, and Springfield 1903 to compare that to; working on getting a Yugoslavian M48 as well. I own the No.1 Mk III SMLE and the Enfield No. 4 Mk. II.

@HeySeuss

The oldest rifle I fired was my buddy's 30-40 Krag. It was also the hardest-kicking weapon I've ever had the pleasure of subjecting my shoulder to. The bolt cycles beautifully, but oh man...It's like offering up your arm to an unhappy mule.

[TomeBinder]

<Snipped quote by TomeBinder>

Actually, I find the SMLE to be well balanced, good trigger and an excellent bolt. The recoil is actually quite gentle for a full sized rifle firing a full sized cartridge, and I have a Swiss K-31, Russian 1891/30, and Springfield 1903 to compare that to; working on getting a Yugoslavian M48 as well. I own the No.1 Mk III SMLE and the Enfield No. 4 Mk. II.

@HeySeuss

Heh, well yeah I guess you're talking to someone who doesn't handle them. To a 16 year old kid, it was a matter of "Imagine lugging this around all day!"

You ever fired that ww2 semi-auto German rifle? The K...43 was it? Do they even exist anymore? I always wondered how they compared to the Garand. History sources are ever so vague, and always obsess over manufacturing problems as opposed to in-detail combat use.

The majority of my long-guns are for hunting. Rifles of various sizes for different kinds of game (I prefer to do my hunting in Colorado during school breaks, and the .300 Win-Mag I use there for Elk would blow one of these little Oklahoma white tail deer in half.)

The AR is for coyotes on the family farm, and because they're great fun. I got the AK because I had deployment money to spend, and that's really the only reason. I love it, but it's not really a gun that I own for a reason.

I do have a shotgun specifically for keeping hoodlums out of my apartment (I'm in a part of town where that's a real problem). I got my concealed-carry permit when I left the Corps for much the same reason. When I'm out riding with my club, I carry my .38 or my little .380 Auto.

EDIT : @TomeBinder They're heavy partly because they're old, but also because that's part of the design. Remember, this was before high-capacity magazines, and close-quarters fighting was still a very common occurrence. You wanted a rifle that could stand up to regular bayonet use, and double as a club in a pinch. It's rare things go that direction in modern combat, but we still issue bayonets in the Marine Corps. I don't remember if the army does or not, but I had one in Afghanistan.

@RoadRash

Yeah that makes sense, I guess I never saw it that way.

[Tearstone]

Heh, I live in Oklahoma as well, RoadRash. You wouldn't happen to be in the western end of the state would you?

Posting is finished.

[RoadRash]

Northeast, actually. Near the Arkansas border. Hell, if you know anything about the schools out there, you can probably track me down.

Though if you read the previous conversation, I'd suggest a friendly email to let me know you're coming over ;) Haha

[Tearstone]

If I could travel that far, I would. We're on opposite ends of the state.

[RoadRash]

Ah, you're a panhandle cat? I like it out there. The riding isn't generally as pretty in terms of scenery, but I find that the weather is much better for it.

[Tearstone]

Not actually up in the panhandle. I'm on the west end but like right in the mid-line of the state.

Funny thing is, I'm actually from the Panhandle of Texas. And yeah, I agree the scenery isn't all that pretty here, but most of the time the weather is nice enough for riding, sometimes even in the winter. Buuuut then again, we get some bitter cold from arctic blasts, and we received more snow this year than I think we have for the last couple.