[OOC] RPGuild Ranked Tournament

[Vordak]

You either overestimate projectiles or underestimate powered melee fighters. Simple strafing is already enough to complicate aiming with a normal gun - unless you have an iron grip and perfect control over your body, in which case you could easily keep the barrel steady and land the bullets more or less precisely while moving. However, add the decreased projectiles speed as a factor, and the difficulty increases exponentially. One has to take into account the time it will take the bullet to actually the opponent, which at 30 meters - a dangerously close distance - will equal to roughly half a second. Considering that their target would have to move only about 1 meter to avoid being hit, that is a lot of time for a bullet to reach a moving target.

EDIT: hadn't read your second comment before posting this. I worry the same about facing guns in this tournament, however, 250 fps is too low of a speed in my opinion. Also, my point about bullets not able to simply kill on touch still stands true.

[Tuujaimaa]

Human-level restrictions on neural processing are something you have not taken into account. In order to react to something, you will require approximately 0.33 seconds to process any sufficiently complex reaction (i.e. one that utilises the CNS over simple motor neurons).

Given the nerf, this is still not enough time to adequately react to a bullet being fired at you. You will be hit before you can react to it. Complex reactions - such as processing someone firing a gun at you - may take more time. Even if you have "advanced senses", your body still has an inherent lag that cannot be bypassed due to the process of using neurotransmitters and the nerve impulses themselves requiring this baseline of time to complete.

If you think that guns are remotely balanced without restricted projectile speeds in combat, you have not been fighting properly for the past <insert time you have been fighting here>. You have been writing prose.

[Skallagrim]

Innue, I am not going to argue. I simply will withdraw. It's you're tournament I respect your decision.

[Innue]

Innue, I am not going to argue. I simply will withdraw. It's you're tournament I respect your decision.

@Skallagrim

Thank you for letting me know.

[Vordak]

Well, i believe that is just the average human reaction speed you are talking about. A trained fighter might be able to react at speeds twice as fast; not he would need to, as he can simply throw off the gunners aim beforehand, moving in zigzags and rolling between cover. There is no need to react to the shot if you use preventive measures that simply don't let them lock their aim on you.

Plus, i think we're talking about characters with various powers and/or gadgets that can help them further encumber their opponent's aim.

[Innue]

Well, i believe that is just the average human reaction speed you are talking about. A trained fighter might be able to react at speeds twice as fast; not he would need to, as he can simply throw off the gunners aim beforehand, moving in zigzags and rolling between cover. There is no need to react to the shot if you use preventive measures that simply don't let them lock their aim on you.

@Vordak

Even at 10x the reaction time, it is still an instant hit. You also can only throw off the gunners aim if they are incompetent. I don't like relying on that to balance my combat. If necessary, I will demonstrate at that range why they are completely unfair at this tier.

[Vordak]

Well, i'll agree with you now. Although i am skeptical towards your statement about not being able to fool and mislead a competent gunner, i guess it does require an amount of speed and skill unavailable at this tier. Even if i still feel as aiming a gun and killing with it is harder than you make it sound, it may be just that i underestimate the control someone experienced has over their firearm.

EDIT: i'd like to submit a character of my own soon. Is there still time before you start the tournament?

[MelonHead]

Human-level restrictions on neural processing are something you have not taken into account. In order to react to something, you will require approximately 0.33 seconds to process any sufficiently complex reaction (i.e. one that utilises the CNS over simple motor neurons).

Given the nerf, this is still not enough time to adequately react to a bullet being fired at you. You will be hit before you can react to it. Complex reactions - such as processing someone firing a gun at you - may take more time. Even if you have "advanced senses", your body still has an inherent lag that cannot be bypassed due to the process of using neurotransmitters and the nerve impulses themselves requiring this baseline of time to complete.

If you think that guns are remotely balanced without restricted projectile speeds in combat, you have not been fighting properly for the past <insert time you have been fighting here>. You have been writing prose.

@Tuujaimaa

You don't react to a bullet being fired at you. That would be like reacting to a sword the moment it touches your skin.

You see someone about to point a gun at you, you move.

[MelonHead]

There is always the option of just standing behind something, most bullets can't penetrate a rock.

[Vordak]

There is always the option of just standing behind something, most bullets can't penetrate a rock.

@MelonHead

PUSH DAT ROCK IDO

BORE THAT PESKY MAC LEOD TO DEATH AND MAKE HIM LEAVE

[Tuujaimaa]

<Snipped quote by Tuujaimaa>

You don't react to a bullet being fired at you. That would be like reacting to a sword the moment it touches your skin.

You see someone about to point a gun at you, you move.

@MelonHead

Except it isn't. Your concept does not translate adequately into this scenario.

In order for your stated scenario to work, you would have to immediately move at 250 feet per second in a direction that you are swinging the sword.

[Vordak]

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

Except it isn't. Your concept does not translate adequately into this scenario.

In order for your stated scenario to work, you would have to immediately move at 250 feet per second in a direction that you are swinging the sword.

@Tuujaimaa

no

plz dont

i thinks one heated debate is enough for today

also you failed to respond to the actual point melon made and instead poked at his hastily made up metaphor

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

Except it isn't. Your concept does not translate adequately into this scenario.

In order for your stated scenario to work, you would have to immediately move at 250 feet per second in a direction that you are swinging the sword.

@Tuujaimaa

No, you've just misunderstood my metaphor. You don't wait until the moment where dodging is impossible to dodge something.
Regardless, I actually agree that modern day firearms and futuristic firearms have no place in a tournament with medieval and fantasy opponents, I made that argument a few days ago.

[Innue]

@MelonHead

Your scenario is more akin to reacting to someone drawing a sword.

[Innue]

<Snipped quote by Tuujaimaa>

No, you've just misunderstood my metaphor. You don't wait until the moment where dodging is impossible to dodge something.
Regardless, I actually agree that modern day firearms and futuristic firearms have no place in a tournament with medieval and fantasy opponents, I made that argument a few days ago.

@MelonHead

Yes, which is why I did incorporate a speed limit on these weapons. It is hopefully going to allow these items to exist in this type of tournament at the same level as other weaponry.

[Tuujaimaa]

<Snipped quote by Tuujaimaa>

No, you've just misunderstood my metaphor. You don't wait until the moment where dodging is impossible to dodge something.

@MelonHead

Let's compare the two scenarios side by side:

A gun is drawn. -> The gun is aimed. -> The gun is fired. -> The bullet travels at its stated feet per second, giving you no reaction time.

A sword is drawn. -> The sword is aimed. -> The sword-wielder moves to melee range. -> The sword wielder attacks.

Do you understand the disparity?

[Vordak]

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

Let's compare the two scenarios side by side:

A gun is drawn. -> The gun is aimed. -> The gun is fired. -> The bullet travels at its stated feet per second, giving you no reaction time.

A sword is drawn. -> The sword is aimed. -> The sword-wielder moves to melee range. -> The sword wielder attacks.

Do you understand the disparity?

@Tuujaimaa

Quit poking at that poor metaphor and actually address melon's point about not letting them have their gun pointed at you instead if you want to instigate an actual discussion.

[Vordak]

Tuujaimaa, don't get me wrong. Even though i have shown a harsh attitude towards you, i do not resent you in any way. Right now, im just pointing out that you seem to be rather antagonizing towards Melon's words. Perhaps, i am doing so in an unnecessarily snarky manner.

[Innue]

@Vordak

I can demonstrate why that isn't effective at this tier.

However, for explanation's sake, the reaction to the motion of the raising of the weapon doesn't work because adjustments to the gun's position need to change to adjust for the actions of the opponent are easier to make compared to the actions required by the one being targeted. After the initial aim, you aren't reacting to the weapon being raised, but the incredibly small movements they make with their arm to alter the bullets path. It is also entirely possible to chain both of these actions into a single post without room for be interrupted.

Even considering the former scenario, it is a 1.01666666666777 seconds to react at 50 feet. Needed reactions following that are even smaller. Given the complex actions required to effectively avoid bullets, you get into many scenarios where it isn't possible to deal with these weapons.

At higher tiers of power, this can become less of an issue. But even Melon agrees that modern weapons would not belong in this tier - thus I structured the tournament in a way that would allow a wider variety of characters to participate.

EDIT: For further explanation, I have made the mistake of not regulating projectile speeds in threads in the past. Experience gained from running my pbp game demonstrated especially why reaction speed and projectile speed are important when creating a balanced environment. It is not some animus against gun users, but actual experience spending effort balancing combat incorporating modern technologies, medieval weapons, and magic that led me to this solution. Trust me, the 250 fps restriction compared to what I have used in the past is very, very generous.

[Skallagrim]

Guys stop. Innue made the ruling no need to continue the arguing.