[OOC] The Sun Will Never Set (A Statisticless NRP)(It had a good run)

[Cyclone]

WWII saw surface to air missiles in development but I don't think they were ever fielded. But shortly afterwards several nationa developed effective ground-based anti-aircraft missile systems.

Since Tin has almost no airforce as of now (they have no friendly nations to purchase the aircraft from) yet I mentioned that the government poured money into one or two military projects (one being the development of good submarines) I figured I'd have anti-air missiles be the other project. Granted this would make Tin relatively advanced in the category of anti-aircraft technologies, but that makes sense considering how badly they need that. With almost no fighter craft and their enemies in Avalia having a really good air force, it makes sense that Tin would have freaked out and came up with a way to mitigate their lack of air superiority.

So what I'm asking for is permission to have (slightly) advanced technology in this specific area. I think that in the real world missiles that could be fired from the ground and shoot down planes were developed by the early 1950's so this isn't too far from the general tech level.

And if this is fine, @Hael since your nation is also lacking in the air department do you want to have an international ballistics program between Tin and KalMea? That way we could both have oversized fireworks that can shoot down those pesky airships.

[Willy Vereb]

WWII saw surface to air missiles in development but I don't think they were ever fielded. But shortly afterwards several nationa developed effective ground-based anti-aircraft missile systems.

Since Tin has almost no airforce as of now (they have no friendly nations to purchase the aircraft from) yet I mentioned that the government poured money into one or two military projects (one being the development of good submarines) I figured I'd have anti-air missiles be the other project. Granted this would make Tin relatively advanced in the category of anti-aircraft technologies, but that makes sense considering how badly they need that. With almost no fighter craft and their enemies in Avalia having a really good air force, it makes sense that Tin would have freaked out and came up with a way to mitigate their lack of air superiority.

So what I'm asking for is permission to have (slightly) advanced technology in this specific area. I think that in the real world missiles that could be fired from the ground and shoot down planes were developed by the early 1950's so this isn't too far from the general tech level.

And if this is fine, @Hael since your nation is also lacking in the air department do you want to have an international ballistics program between Tin and KalMea? That way we could both have oversized fireworks that can shoot down those pesky airships.

@Cyclone

WW2 had used anti-air missiles but your issue would be pretty much that they're unguided.
Anti-air missiles are also pretty far in the "aviation tech tree".
I can understand that you try for balance and to avoid being overwhelmed by the superior tech of others but actual guided missiles would be pretty much a gamebreaker.

If you want effective air defenses then invest in cannons on anti-aircraft mounts.
It also makes a lot of sense because Avalia pretty much sports a huge fleet of airships.
Such monstrosities would require you to use big anti-aircraft cannons to effectively bring down.
Something like the famous 88mm Flak 40, for example.
Side benefit that they are also pretty damn good fixed anti-tank defenses.
You can also try to cover anti-fighter defense by using quad-mounted AA machineguns.
These are all fine and reasonable for your nations. And should mostly do the trick.

...And man, you'd need AA defenses if I we actually face each other in battle. V-1 like flying bomb attacks can be nasty and that's what my airships can do.

[Cyclone]

Guided missiles can be outran or outsmarted ( I've heard it said that the early infrared heat-seeking ones could be tricked by aircraft dumping containers full of hot coals) so I'm not so sure that it would be as game breaking as you say.

Overall a decent wing of fighters seems infinitely more dangerous than a few primitive ground to air missiles, especially since it would take a lot to bring down an airship, as you said.

[Alfhedil]

And not only that, but you can have them imported from a nation that just so happens to produce them in bulk, Eisenkreis! :D

[Willy Vereb]

Guided missiles can be outran or outsmarted ( I've heard it said that the early infrared heat-seeking ones could be tricked by aircraft dumping containers full of hot coals) so I'm not so sure that it would be as game breaking as you say.

Overall a decent wing of fighters seems infinitely more dangerous than a few primitive ground to air missiles, especially since it would take a lot to bring down an aircraft ad you said.

@Cyclone

The fact you actually need to trick them instead of the missiles only being effective in suppressive fire is telling enough.
Sure, for the sake of near-100% success even modern batteries unload dozens of missiles on a single aircraft but it's far better than what they had in WW2.

Guided missiles also mean you have a reliable rocket technology with decent range and that you can miniaturize various technologies which WW2 era militiaries usually could only dream of.
The only known guided AA missile in WW2 was basically as big as the V1 if not larger and required an entire building to control.

Even ignoring these, missiles are a bad idea for your nation because they require decent technology base and industry while shells could be pretty much created by even primitive levels of industrialization. Third World countries nowadays can create thousands of guns and swarms of ammunition with limited tools and purely manual labor.

That and I can't see why you need guided missiles instead of relying on the same kind of AA defenses as what everybody else has.

[Cyclone]

@Willy Vereb

Well argued.

Fine...

Oversized AA machine guns it is. No cool missiles.

[Willy Vereb]

Oversized AA machine guns it is. No cool missiles.

@Cyclone

I give you one chance to reconsider.


Seriously, big-ass guns, big-ass artillery and these are all linked to a long line of battery pouring exploding brass to the skies.
What part isn't cool in that?

[Cyclone]

@Willy Vereb

You hear a whoosh. A blast of wind and smoke rustles your hair and then violently pushes against your body as the great missile propels itself into the air at incredible speeds. Its victim, a puny bomber, attempts evasive maneuver, but to no avail; the guided missile follows it like a hound before finally coming into contact. For a brief moment the sky is illuminated by a second sun, a massive fireball, and then the plane is no more: nothing but a clusterfuck of deadly debris that is now raining down on the enemy's heads.

Missiles are better.

[Alfhedil]

@Willy Vereb

You hear a whoosh. A blast of wind and smoke rustles your hair and then violently pushes against your body as the great missile propels itself into the air at incredible speeds. Its victim, a puny bomber, attempts evasive maneuver, but to no avail; the guided missile follows it like a hound before finally coming into contact. For a brief moment the sky is illuminated by a second sun, a massive fireball, and then the plane is no more: nothing but a clusterfuck of deadly debris that is now raining down on the enemy's heads.

Missiles are better.

@Cyclone

Could be feasibly done in setting, Eisenkreis has sophisticated radar systems, and it would be pretty easy to rig up a propulsion system in a missile to guide it according to a target lock from either the main station, or a miniature radar device inside the warhead itself.

[Cyclone]

Or I could just have unguided missiles. These zeppelin-esque airships would be huge, slow-moving targets. I think that I'll have mobile artillery platforms that are conventional AA guns, but that some of my navy's larger ships (and maybe some specialized anti-airship ground defenses) would use rockets of some sort.

Even if they aren't guided.

[Willy Vereb]

@Willy Vereb

You hear a whoosh. A blast of wind and smoke rustles your hair and then violently pushes against your body as the great missile propels itself into the air at incredible speeds. Its victim, a puny bomber, attempts evasive maneuver, but to no avail; the guided missile follows it like a hound before finally coming into contact. For a brief moment the sky is illuminated by a second sun, a massive fireball, and then the plane is no more: nothing but a clusterfuck of deadly debris that is now raining down on the enemy's heads.

Missiles are better.

@Cyclone

That weirdly sounded like some elvish propaganda.
So I answer back in Tin fashion.

All guns blazing in unison like the breath of the divine dragon, roaring proudly for hours, turning the skies into a realm of smoke and flames. All for the same cost you invested in that tricky rocket fireworks.
The Spirit of the Dragon is with the guns!
Adjar Akbar!

Or I could just have unguided missiles. These zeppelin-esque airships would be huge, slow-moving targets. I think that I'll have mobile artillery platforms that are conventional AA guns, but that some of my navy's larger ships (and maybe some specialized anti-airship ground defenses) would use rockets of some sort.

Even if they aren't guided.

@Cyclone

And you gain almost nothing from it, then.
Rockets are good for interceptor aircraft because it makes the weapon system light yet still effective.
There's nothing an unguided missile system can do which a cannon could not perform even better.
Especially compared to WW2 era rockets and their not so great accuracy.
But yeah, airships won't be as mobile.
That's why you want entire batteries of AA artillery to bring them down. It's a cheap, proven and effective method.
Albeit the altitude of these airships would make it a bit difficult.

Again, I can't see why you want missiles for AA defense.

<Snipped quote by Cyclone>

Could be feasibly done in setting, Eisenkreis has sophisticated radar systems, and it would be pretty easy to rig up a propulsion system in a missile to guide it according to a target lock from either the main station, or a miniature radar device inside the warhead itself.

@Alfhedil

Yeah, and then why not we add laser cannons for point defense?
Better yet, let's fight out the entire battle in space.
Seriously, if you wish to destroy the setting, radar-guided missiles as a common air defense is a good way to go.
That's practically why Voltus banned jet fighters (even if a bit unjustifiably since WW2 jet fighters weren't all that good).

Anyways, this beautiful mix of tactics and strategy which you're attempting to destroy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4HKyyp0ERQ
Seriously, it has all sources of amazing potential.

[Cyclone]

@Willy Vereb

Because missiles create a big fiery explosion. It's the difference between shooting tiny holes into an absolutely enormous balloon and doing nothing, or reenacting the Hindenberg's explosion with a fiery kaboom that engulfs the entire airship in a great inferno of death. Not to mention that a missile could probably reach much greater altitudes.

Adjar Akbar!

HE MISSPELLED 'AJDAR'! BURN THE INFIDEL!!!

And for the last time they are supposed to be like Mongols! Not Arabs/Muslims! Albeit there is some Timurid (and hence Persian) influence in there, and if you didn't notice I actually named Babur after the founder of the Mughal Empire.

[Willy Vereb]

@Willy Vereb

Because missiles create a big fiery explosion. It's the difference between poking a tiny hole in a balloon and reenacting the Hindenberg's explosion. Not to mention that a missile could probably reach much greater altitudes.

<Snipped quote>

HE MISSPELLED 'AJDAR'! BURN THE INFIDEL!!!

And for the last time they are supposed to be like Mongols! Not Arabs/Muslims! Albeit there is some Timurid (and hence Persian) influence in there, and if you didn't notice I actually named Babur after the founder of the Mughal Empire.

@Cyclone

Ajdar Akbar means, "Ajdar is the Greatest!" or replace Ajdar with the Dragon if you prefer.
It fit especially since your second greatest inspiration seems to be the Ottoman Empire.

[Cyclone]

@Willy Vereb

What? Sure, I have Janissaries, but if you look at the big picture I don't see that much resemblance to the Ottomans. Ottomans were somewhag secular and highly tolerant (at least compared to the Seljuk, Holy Roman Empire, etc.), not to mention rather technologically advanced.

I say that the Tinites are more like the Moors.

[Willy Vereb]

@Willy Vereb

What? Sure, I have Janissaries, but if you look at the big picture I don't see that much resemblance to the Ottomans. Ottomans were somewhag secular and highly tolerant (at least compared to the Seljuk, Holy Roman Empire, etc.), not to mention rather technologically advanced.

I say that the Tinites are more like the Moors.

@Cyclone

Well, that might be more accurate to say, yeah.
As for Ottomans being advanced, they weren't so much by the early 20th century. Of course they were not on Tin's level and as you say their culture was nowhere as rigid or bound by traditions. So in retrospect my previous claim is void.
Anyways, I still can't see why's it a problem I used a mutation of a Muslim phrase for a fantasy nation whose culture and religion resembles the Mongols and the middle east.
It just fit so I added it to the end.

[Alfhedil]

<Snipped quote by Alfhedil>Yeah, and then why not we add laser cannons for point defense?
Better yet, let's fight out the entire battle in space.
Seriously, if you wish to destroy the setting, radar-guided missiles as a common air defense is a good way to go.
That's practically why Voltus banned jet fighters (even if a bit unjustifiably since WW2 jet fighters weren't all that good).

Anyways, this beautiful mix of tactics and strategy which you're attempting to destroy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4HKyyp0ERQ
Seriously, it has all sources of amazing potential.

@Willy Vereb

Better yet, how about we not be a dick, and direct a post full of snark at someone who was offering interaction in the IC through the development of something for someone else's nation? Seriously, what the hell is your problem? Pages back, when I put forth that Eisenkreis put effective AA down through the use of extensive cannon batteries, you put me down and the very idea of it, yet now you are pushing Cyclone to do exactly that promoting it as the idea of cool.

[Meiyuuhi]

While I don't condone his sarcasm (which is fairly rude), I would say the only reason he complained about your AA cannons is because you were saying nothing could penetrate them. Now he's arguing for them because AA missiles are OP. A distinction exists.

Now please let this argument rest so we can move forward. Wars belong in the IC.

[Willy Vereb]

<Snipped quote by Willy Vereb>

Better yet, how about we not be a dick, and direct a post full of snark at someone who was offering interaction in the IC through the development of something for someone else's nation? Seriously, what the hell is your problem? Pages back, when I put forth that Eisenkreis put effective AA down through the use of extensive cannon batteries, you put me down and the very idea of it, yet now you are pushing Cyclone to do exactly that promoting it as the idea of cool.

@Alfhedil

It isn't me who causes problems but you.
You appear to cause a scene whenever somebody dares to correct you. Just chill.

Anyways, I know it didn't happen yesterday but at least try to remember what were we talking about.
You said your defense will absolutely bring down any aircraft and I corrected you. Then you started throwing a long rant which had little to do with the topic and almost had the OOC burst up in flames.
I mentioned that if you try to make your AA defense even better you may include something like the late WW2 radar guided rocket.
Huge and needs an entire building on the ground to control but if it's almost a religion for your people to absolutely never let anyone through then maybe they don't mind the expenses.
I never said that WW2 AA defense was anything I don't like. It was a rather unique situation back then and it makes you respect the AA crew and bomber pilots in WW2 to go through such elaborate measures.
Whether you portray this accurately or go with the "Hollywood type" representation, the operation of large groups of AA batteries give you chance for an enjoyable action scene.

Your suggestion to have guided missiles with their own radar would practically change WW2 to Cold War era.
Like I said, you may as well mount laser cannons then or arm your infantry with rayguns. It wouldn't matter after this.
I may have been somewhat harsh but you should do a self check yourself. Whenever you respond back it only aggravates the situation.
If it hurts so much for somebody to disagree with you then just ignore my post and avoid this whole issue.

While I don't condone his sarcasm (which is fairly rude), I would say the only reason he complained about your AA cannons is because you were saying nothing could penetrate them. Now he's arguing for them because AA missiles are OP. A distinction exists.

Now please let this argument rest so we can move forward. Wars belong in the IC.

@Mihndar

I am fully in support of this.
The GM even said in the first post that he doesn't wish to see any heated arguments in the OOC.

[Meiyuuhi]

If you are fully in support of what I just said you will delete your above response to Alfhedil and let it drop as I said. Or at least omit offensive terms such as "long rant" and speak civilly.

If you are not, then you will prove him correct.

[Alfhedil]

You know what? Forget it.