[OOC] [Unranked] Sathanas Rex vs Melonhead

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by Sathanas Rex>

Not necessarily. While the momentum might lock his feet into place, Brennus is still free to pull away the sword with his arms, and he can do so wicked quick, taking into mind the nature of his attack.

@Vordak

Yeah, I'm not even worried about that part of the attack, speed was never something I was querying.

[Sathanas Rex]

I disagree, taking into mind the nature of his attack. If I understand what you're saying, of course.

The thing about it is that as Brennus' attack completes, he's been parried by Florian. To take any further action, Brennus needs to now bring his left foot forward to re-balance himself, considering how far ahead his right foot is. At this point, Florian has control of his sword arm. This is what I mean by the attack being slow.

And at this point, there's not a lot Brennus can do.

Even if he does jerk his arm back or sideways while off balance, his position doesn't change. Florian at this point can stab him anywhere he chooses.

[MelonHead]

I disagree, taking into mind the nature of his attack. If I understand what you're saying, of course.

The thing about it is that as Brennus' attack completes, he's been parried by Florian. To take any further action, Brennus needs to now bring his left foot forward to re-balance himself, considering how far ahead his right foot is. At this point, Florian has control of his sword arm. This is what I mean by the attack being slow.

And at this point, there's not a lot Brennus can do.

@Sathanas Rex

Uh... or he can just bring his right foot back, disengaging easily was the entire point of my attack, the movements involved are small and cautionary, hell, I even said at the end of my post that was the entire vibe of the move. Fuck me, Brennus barely even moved his upper body with the attack, he didn't turn his entire body into some rending instant kill with a wooden sword strike, he's not throwing a fucking sledgehammer blow.

Plus, Florian's sword was in a purposeful useless position to block an upper body attack, as he left the entire area exposed. This meant there was a time delay in carrying out his own move, so this idea that Florian is finished with everything infinitely quicker is to my perception illogical.

Anyway, I'm going to stop arguing about the situation before I've even made my post, though if you're so sure that the opening move had somehow offered you an instant grab you're going to be dissapointed I suppose.

[Vordak]

Ohohoho... Melon could totally try to end this fight right now. I'm not telling how tho.

Or not, actually.

[Sathanas Rex]

There are still some misunderstandings on my part then. I'm saying that the specific attack you used is not really cautionary, because of its long range. It's what happens when you move the back leg to accompany an attack. You kind of fly forward, to cover that much ground, and can be easily parried, even from an invite. It's an all out attack. It is because of this attack that I felt I could parry and move into a counter.

I understand you didn't want to throw yourself in an all out attack right off the bat. The fact you mentioned bringing the right leg forward to offer you extra momentum is what confused me. So if you re-word that attack slightly, I'll delete my post and think about the next best move.

I'd like this to be friendly, and for the spar to finish cleanly. I apologize if I've come across as needlessly stubborn or greedy haha.

[MelonHead]

There are still some misunderstandings on my part then. I'm saying that the specific attack you used is not really cautionary, because of its long range. It's what happens when you move the back leg to accompany an attack. You kind of fly forward, to cover that much ground, and can be easily parried, even from an invite. It's an all out attack. It is because of this attack that I felt I could parry and move into a counter.

I understand you didn't want to throw yourself in an all out attack right off the bat. The fact you mentioned bringing the right leg forward to offer you extra momentum is what confused me. So if you re-word that attack slightly, I'll delete my post and think about the next best move.

I'd like this to be friendly, and for the spar to finish cleanly. I apologize if I've come across as needlessly stubborn or greedy haha.

@Sathanas Rex

Most if not all engagements which start at significant range (like ours) with longswords seem to involve that step. I'm going off what I've seen in HEMA videos, because sword fighting is not my thing, but I fail to see your argument in watching these videos that the attack is 'easy to counter' (and honestly, I agreed to this fight with Brennus my spear and shield character, I didn't really appreciate having my weapons replaced with a sword, but hey ho.)

[Vordak]

There are still some misunderstandings on my part then. I'm saying that the specific attack you used is not really cautionary, because of its long range. It's what happens when you move the back leg to accompany an attack. You kind of fly forward, to cover that much ground, and can be easily parried, even from an invite. It's an all out attack. It is because of this attack that I felt I could parry and move into a counter.

I understand you didn't want to throw yourself in an all out attack right off the bat. The fact you mentioned bringing the right leg forward to offer you extra momentum is what confused me. So if you re-word that attack slightly, I'll delete my post and think about the next best move.

I'd like this to be friendly, and for the spar to finish cleanly. I apologize if I've come across as needlessly stubborn or greedy haha.

@Sathanas Rex

Florian can't get a fast enough stab from his parry position though, so Brennus can get out of his range by stepping backwards while disengaging.

A cut can be parried right after disengaging, while the chance of a grab is obviously rendered null no matter what.

[MelonHead]

From a more Arena perspective, you should probably add more important details, like which hand you're attempting to grab with.

[Sathanas Rex]

I saw a longsword was in his inventory, so I thought he knew how to use it and so I could do that D: oh dear. I'm sorry again, it seems this battle was flawed from the start.

I see your attack as a lunge, because of that range. If it is a lunge in gran passata, then I'm confident my counter is the textbook one, because it's been taught/used against me. If it's not a lunge, then I still don't quite understand.

edit: yeah, there have definitely been imprecisions in my posts. If you want we can restart from zero and I'll do my best to be detailed.

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by Sathanas Rex>

Florian can't get a fast enough stab from his parry position though, so Brennus can get out of his range by stepping backwards while disengaging.

@Vordak

Yeah, I'm fairly certain there is no basis for the assumption that Brennus 'has no options' other than the fact that his attack is apparently slow and easy to counter, which are interesting points to make on the flip side to an attack you've called 'covering distance fast' and 'high momentum'

The thing is, anyone could fight by simply googling someone's attack until they found the closest professional name for it, and then finding the counter and just saying 'my character performs -this-'

That's my problem with this so far, that and the slightly unfair manipulations of what I'm posting, and the lack of detail.

Hell, I find this whole thing pointless, if I was playing Brennus to character he would never have accepted any of this, right now he'd probably drop his sword and just beat the shit out of Florian hand to hand.

The fact that my character has a sword as a backup means he in IC knows how to use it, but I'm still learning sword-play (and for the most part see it as pretentious and stupid, I could easily kill an average swordsman in real life with a spear, so what's the point of it.)

[Sathanas Rex]

<Snipped quote by Sathanas Rex>

Florian can't get a fast enough stab from his parry position though, so Brennus can get out of his range by stepping backwards while disengaging.

A cut can be parried right after disengaging, while the chance of a grab is obviously rendered null no matter what.

@Vordak

This is true! I've seen incredibly skilled fencers do something like that, even from such an off-balance position like a gran passata. Florian is still at an advantage in this situation, because he could press forward aggressively, but it's definitely not an instant kill. Good catch.

[Sathanas Rex]

<Snipped quote by Vordak>

Yeah, I'm fairly certain there is no basis for the assumption that Brennus 'has no options' other than the fact that his attack is apparently slow and easy to counter, which are interesting points to make on the flip side to an attack you've called 'covering distance fast' and 'high momentum'

The thing is, anyone could fight by simply googling someone's attack until they found the closest professional name for it, and then finding the counter and just saying 'my character performs -this-'

That's my problem with this so far, that and the slightly unfair manipulations of what I'm posting, and the lack of detail.

Hell, I find this whole thing pointless, if I was playing Brennus to character he would never have accepted any of this, right now he'd probably drop his sword and just beat the shit out of Florian hand to hand.

@MelonHead

Oh dear, I've offended you. I'm sorry. I promise I'm not trying to manipulate this fight, and the lack of detail is an issue, I haven't been arena-ing for too long. The attack is fast in execution but can be parried. It's slow to recover from. Does that make sense?

The point of this fight was to help me get a hang of how the Arena works though, not playing a situation in character. I have certainly been reminded, repeatedly, to keep details in mind, and will do so in my next fights.

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

Oh dear, I've offended you. I'm sorry. I promise I'm not trying to manipulate this fight, and the lack of detail is an issue, I haven't been arena-ing for too long. The attack is fast in execution but can be parried. It's slow to recover from. Does that make sense?

The point of this fight was to help me get a hang of how the Arena works though, not playing a situation in character. I have certainly been reminded, repeatedly, to keep details in mind, and will do so in my next fights.

@Sathanas Rex

Meh, I'm not offended as far as I can tell, you haven't insulted me personally, I was just expecting a different sort of fight and was a little perturbed that you controlled my character in the opening post (that isn't generally done.)

I understand that a large overarm slash is slow to recover from, the same for a lunge, but I've tried to (apparently unsuccessfully) describe a quick darting in-and-out cutting attack which sacrifices -some- recovery speed for power, I don't think this should necessarily be something you should describe as an untenable situation for my character, at least certainly not in OOC. As it seems like you have real life experience, I'm sure you know more about sword fighting than me, but I know some things about debating, and your evidence thus far is what I would consider anecdotal.

[Skallagrim]

Fencing is not sword fighting we are discussing. Fencing fights along lines the type of sword fighting in the era Melon wants does not.

[Sathanas Rex]

Oh good, I didn't want to offend you. I wanted to present things nicely in the opening post, like a sort of story, which is why I took the liberty of doing so. Brennus didn't do anything compromising, I don't think, so it's probably fine, but it's true that not every forum does so comfortably. Sorry again.

Hrmrm you're right, I don't sound too convincing, and 'trust me' doesn't exactly cut it. I'll try to explain again. A forward lunge in gran passata (when you attack and simultaneously move your foot forward) is a fast attack that covers a lot of distance, but its downside is it takes forever and a half to recover from it. It's generally used when the opponent is in no situation to parry. It's not a quick darting in attack.

However, a quick darting in attack could be obtained by moving forward in passata, and then attacking, once both your feet are on the ground. You obtain a very similar result this way: covering distance and then attacking. It's split into two movements, but it's a lot safer, and closer to what you were describing?

Fencing is not sword fighting we are discussing. Fencing fights along lines the type of sword fighting in the era Melon wants does not.

@Skallagrim

It's true, this isn't at all historically accurate combat. Neither Melon nor I are using roman-era fighting techniques. I didn't think that was a requirement in the arena though. @Melonhead if you'd feel more comfortable using roman era spear-and shield, we can re-do this, no problem. I'd much rather fight and lose than debate for ages and not fight, if that makes any sense.

[MelonHead]

Actually, I'm attempting to use what would probably be as close as possible to barbarian longsword fighting (without the use of a shield, which was also taken from me) because that's how my character is trained, it tended to involve quick and frenzied assaults which favoured overpowering an opponent. Though apparently overpowering your character is impossible, his upper body strength far exceeds Brennus' own if he can keep his sword at bay with one hand while grappling.

[Sathanas Rex]

I understand now this is definitely not a combat situation Brennus is comfortable with. My mistake. I took too many liberties in the opening post.

Brennus would destroy Florian in a contest of strength, absolutely no questions. That move specifically doesn't require strength though, as Vordak said, which is why Florian was confident in using it. He stops Brennus' blade with the strong part of his own, and then grabs his wrist, preventing him from making any serious attacks, and then striking for the kill. Very quick and painless. That's how it would happen in the totally hypothetical scenario that is not the one described in this fight -- if you were to continue the example I offered, I mean.

[MelonHead]

To continue the hypothetical, because I am curious as to how my character could get out of this perceived 'untenable' situation is there anything stopping him from.

1. Crouching and dragging his sword down, before thrusting it into Florian's stomach.
2. Kicking Florian in the leg or balls if he's feeling particularly cruel with his left leg.
3. Pommel striking Florian in the face
4. Stepping back with his right foot
5. Dropping his sword and breaking Florian's hand/arm
6. Punching Florian in the face or stomach.

If Florian moves his sword to deal with any of these threats, he may have stopped Brennus, but Brennus' sword would have an open target to his head and neck, except for option 1.

This is a chance for you to show me something about sword fighting while I explain how in a purely Arena sense your posts are lacking some detail etc.

It's worth pointing out that your personal experience seems to have been somewhat restricted in what action you can take (I'm guessing fencing?) so though the situation may seem untenable in that strict regimented sense, there are probably a lot of ways you could essentially cheat to escape or gain an advantage. An example I always think back to is how kicking someone in the balls in MMA is disallowed, and immediately halts the fight, despite it being incredibly effective, or even doing the same in boxing. People who have real life experience have a lot of knowledge about what is essentially 'sport' and though its definitely applicable to a fight which is trying to represent real life, there are some 'cheat moves' that I will happily use, which are outside of that sporting environment.

[Vordak]

Brennus can still apply additional pressure to Florian's blade after he goes through with the initial attack though, even with both hands outstretched. Actually, he could lower Florian's blade low enough to attempt a stab to the head with his own.

Not to mention that my point about Brennus being capable to quickly disengage still stands true, so i'm rather skeptical in regards to whether the grapple will be successful or not.

EDIT: ninja'd by Melon

[Sathanas Rex]

Gladly!

I'm not sure how this would work in Arena, you can tell me that. In actuality though, in this hypothetical, none of these are possible for the following reason: footwork. This is the scenario, from the top, with your hypotheticals included. I just spent about two minutes demoing each with my brother -- it was very fun (though he died repeatedly):

Florian is in invite. Brennus throws himself with a gran passata, right foot forward. Florian intercepts and parries. He grabs his sword arm with his free hand. At this point, Brennus still has his left foot way back. It's discharged and so can't do anything. If he moves his left foot forward to recover balance, Florian stabs him. I determined that he could maybe punch him in the crotch, somewhat half-heartedly, but he'd receive a point to the face in response. He can't push himself back with his right leg because the grapple has connected.

Maybe, maaaaybe, Brennus could push himself back with his right leg the instant before Florian's grapple connects, but his leg isn't fully charged because it's so extended, and at this point Florian could throw himself at Brennus in fleche or something and gore him. So Vordak's previous suggestion isn't instant death, but it's still not optimal. The bit where I said extremely skilled fencers could do such a thing turns out to be a different attack.

Am I making sense?

edit: Though there has been an edit and a post in the time I posted this, I think it still stands. The hypothetical is in the scenario that Brennus throws himself all out, right? If it's not, then the fight is not over at all.