Radical Feminism, Misandry & the Rise of MGTOW

[Vilageidiotx]

The internet is made of people, don't forget that. Everybody on here is out there too.

[Dinh AaronMk]

The internet is made of people, don't forget that. Everybody on here is out there too.

@Vilageidiotx

Every Tumblrina, every slash artist on dA, every commenter on YouTube.

[Nilesapa]

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

Every Tumblrina, every slash artist on dA, every commenter on YouTube.

@Dinh AaronMk

Many people tend to segregate their online behavior from their behavior in real life. Of course, there's exceptions. In a English class I took over the spring, one of my peers openly had a pony shirt and argued with a member in my group about SJWs and feminism. It was a bit surreal.

Impacts aside, I see it as more productive to play video games than argue about what's in them all day on twitter or spend all day lurking said arguments. The arguments are just the same every time again and again. It's nauseous just to read or listen to internet gender politics. It's mind cancer spread contagiously through the internet and despite the illusion of importance it gives, it's all just a massive garbage distraction that is just going to lead everyone in a circus ride where everyone hates each other. I'm not surprised there are people who browse these shouting matches and conclude the human race (at least in the west and Japan) will slowly die off as men prefer the company of sex bots and women close themselves into hugboxes. Echo chambers are great at creating illusions of importance. Yet when I search anything outside this subset of the internet, suddenly it has no influence!

The idea that neo-reactionaries are gaining power and support has truth to it, but I see the whole online polarization with gender politics that's occurred in the past 5 years as more a symptom than a cause.

[Vilageidiotx]

It does have influence in limited places. Like MDK pointed out, the sort of internet gender politics we are talking about has taken root in academia.

[Dinh AaronMk]

It does have influence in limited places. Like MDK pointed out, the sort of internet gender politics we are talking about has taken root in academia.

@Vilageidiotx

And if people did not legitemately believe in what they're spouting then it wouldn't be as easy for people to market extreme-ism merchandise which exists and is apparently a sizable niche in their own rights. And often pretty ironic in their own nature.

[Dolerman]

Menenists and MRAs come across as whiny manchildren.

And I dont agree with radical femenism either.

Still not sure what Migtow is tbh.

[Loud Angry Dead]

Misandry, Misogyny, and Missingnos aside...

How about them gender equal salaries eh?

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I'm sorry... that wasn't fair, though it is a fair point. I do think something should be done to assist working mothers though. Some sort of state organized child care program. Think of the children man.... think of the children. I say this but I have no faith that it would be implemented correctly... or at all. That being said, who thinks it's nuts that we've gotten to the point where we would rather have strangers raise our kids than raise em ourselves? It's difficult to raise a family on a single paycheck these days after all. It's rather unavoidable that both parents tend to have to work to support them.

Not knocking working parents at all though. Both my parents worked themselves to the bone to provide for us after all. Can't say I really think I've missed out on the whole family bonding thing because it wasn't really a relevant life experience. I could just be absolutely crazy and not know it though.

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Sorry about that tangent.

[BrokenVeil]

Menenists and MRAs come across as whiny manchildren.

And I dont agree with radical femenism either.

Still not sure what Migtow is tbh.

@Dynamo Frokane

Men
Going
Their
Own
Way

They are kinda right...Some things they go a bit overkill on, but I think all groups like that are like that.

[Vilageidiotx]

Misandry, Misogyny, and Missingnos aside...

How about them gender equal salaries eh?

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I'm sorry... that wasn't fair, though it is a fair point. I do think something should be done to assist working mothers though. Some sort of state organized child care program. Think of the children man.... think of the children. I say this but I have no faith that it would be implemented correctly... or at all. That being said, who thinks it's nuts that we've gotten to the point where we would rather have strangers raise our kids than raise em ourselves? It's difficult to raise a family on a single paycheck these days after all. It's rather unavoidable that both parents tend to have to work to support them.

Not knocking working parents at all though. Both my parents worked themselves to the bone to provide for us after all. Can't say I really think I've missed out on the whole family bonding thing because it wasn't really a relevant life experience. I could just be absolutely crazy and not know it though.

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Sorry about that tangent.

@Loud Angry Dead

I agree completely, and that is part of what I meant when I said the problem of our generation (in the west) is going to be economics, not civil rights. It's not about what racial or gender demographic you are born to anymore, its about the general access to wealth.

[Darcs]

I'm not convinced that systematic oppression against anybody exists in the West.

@mdk

Yes. The West. As you imply with this statement though, there is an East.

(Also it does still exist in the West)

The closest we have are situations where people in impoverished areas aren't getting enough help -- but that's a far cry from the evil villain twirling his-or-her mustache and cackling as the oppressed are HELD DOWN. That shit don't happen here. Apathy is not oppression, and apathy is as close as we get. Congratulations, us!

@mdk

Okay but an apathy towards the plight of the downtrodden, who are held in that position by a system that is kept in power by your apathy is literally oppression of the downtrodden.

TLDR -- We need to figure out a better way to handle date-rape, soft harassment, and similar crimes. The system as it's set now is unfair to men, sure, but downright insulting to women -- two of the three examples I have from personal experience, the woman was told in no uncertain terms "It doesn't matter what you say now, you aren't strong enough to handle this on your own, and we don't care what you think you want, we're going to do what's in your best interest and you don't have a say in it."

@mdk

#thankspatriarchy

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They are kinda right...Some things they go a bit overkill on, but I think all groups like that are like that.

@BrokenVeil

Dog, their whole philosophy is that all women are cold shrews who only want them for their money so they choose to be virgins.

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I agree completely, and that is part of what I meant when I said the problem of our generation (in the west) is going to be economics, not civil rights. It's not about what racial or gender demographic you are born to anymore, its about the general access to wealth.

@Vilageidiotx

You say that like the two aren't intrinsically tied to one another.

[Mr_pink]

Prejudice against men is real, sure , but misandry implies it's more than prejudice and is more on a level that suggests men are oppressed just for being men. Which. They aren't.

@Mysaren

misandry
mɪˈsandri/
noun
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex).

It has nothing to do with oppression.

[Vilageidiotx]

You say that like the two aren't intrinsically tied to one another.

@Darcs

Yes, but approaching it as an issue of sex an race is going about it completely incorrect. It's like if somebody has cancer that is causing them to cough a lot. If you try to cure it by treating the cough, all you are doing is making it look less ugly. You have to treat the cancer.

Yes. The West. As you imply with this statement though, there is an East.

(Also it does still exist in the West)

We can't fix the east from here. We've tried, it doesn't end well.

And there is a difference between antiquated views that have not worked out of society yet and oppression that is systematic. For it to be systematic, you have to find how the entire society is upholding the oppression. And for it to count in the argument, it also cannot be a problem traced back to economics.

Okay but an apathy towards the plight of the downtrodden, who are held in that position by a system that is kept in power by your apathy is literally oppression of the downtrodden.

The point isn't apathy, but approaching this situation like an adult. If you go at it like we are being held down by easy to pin point evil forces (like the imaginary patriarchy) then you are making the situation worse by choosing to treat the conversation as nothing more than about how you are a good person.

When the problem becomes economics, it becomes too broad for the tumblr mistake to cover, because at this point the "oppressed" starts to include many of the people who you would normally include in the patriarchy. And the people who will slip into this oppressed group by the end of their lifetimes? That is a bigger group. It isn't a civil rights issue - the law is giving everybody the legal rights. It is an issue of means, and the ability to access the wealth that we produce.

[Darcs]

@VilageidiotxBut the fact of the matter is that these are issues that exist independent of an abrasive capitalist ideology, they aren't just symptoms of systematic economic inequalities. They are cancers in their own right, the divide between races and genders in America and the world, but have historical and socio-cultural origins that need to be addressed. That isn't to say that they aren't exacerbated by economic problems, because they are, but in the same vein, the opposite could also be said about social issues worsening economic issues.

By saying that we need to stop focusing on social issues and turn our gaze to the REAL problem that is the capitalist forces of evil, you fall victim to the same problem you accuse me of. You're oversimplifying the issue by splitting it into something that is starkly black and white. You're just swapping the (real) patriarchy with the classism that is the source of evil behind everything.

Trans*people are systematically denied recognition under the law as their gender, homeless people are pushed out of cities and forced further into their situation instead of being offered help, more black men go to prison to fuel the prison industrial complex, Big Pharma fights to get Obamacare repealed, women are still vocationally, socially, and culturally seen as inferior to men, instead of just different, we continue to drone strike the Middle East despite right-wing terrorism being the bigger domestic problem, and conditions on plantations worsen annually while DC does nothing about it. These are complex problems, and no single one really exists independent of the other. It really won't do to try fixing them with ignoring any aspect of them, be it social of economic.

Clearly the real problem here is the state. You should maybe consider becoming an anarchist.

[BrokenVeil]

@Darcs Depends on who you talk to. I think that a large amount are just virgin fuccbois, but the guys who start it were divorced and lost everything. I know some MGTOWs that chase tail, but don't intend to ever marry.

[HeySeuss]

Menenists and MRAs come across as whiny manchildren.

And I dont agree with radical femenism either.

Still not sure what Migtow is tbh.

@Dynamo Frokane

I'm not sure I've ever run into a 'radical feminist' as described in online forums, and I really get around.

[Vilageidiotx]

@VilageidiotxBut the fact of the matter is that these are issues that exist independent of an abrasive capitalist ideology, they aren't just symptoms of systematic economic inequalities. They are cancers in their own right, the divide between races and genders in America and the world, but have historical and socio-cultural origins that need to be addressed. That isn't to say that they aren't exacerbated by economic problems, because they are, but in the same vein, the opposite could also be said about social issues worsening economic issues.

By saying that we need to stop focusing on social issues and turn our gaze to the REAL problem that is the capitalist forces of evil, you fall victim to the same problem you accuse me of. You're oversimplifying the issue by splitting it into something that is starkly black and white. You're just swapping the (real) patriarchy with the classism that is the source of evil behind everything.

Trans*people are systematically denied recognition under the law as their gender, homeless people are pushed out of cities and forced further into their situation instead of being offered help, more black men go to prison to fuel the prison industrial complex, Big Pharma fights to get Obamacare repealed, women are still vocationally, socially, and culturally seen as inferior to men, instead of just different, we continue to drone strike the Middle East despite right-wing terrorism being the bigger domestic problem, and conditions on plantations worsen annually while DC does nothing about it. These are complex problems, and no single one really exists independent of the other. It really won't do to try fixing them with ignoring any aspect of them, be it social of economic.

Clearly the real problem here is the state. You should maybe consider becoming an anarchist.

@Darcs

OK, so let me clear up my language.

I think MDK was right because I feel that the processes that caused racism and sexism to flourish were the laws specifically keeping these groups down, and with those laws gone the divide is now entirely a mix of cultural divisions and lingering remnants of the old prejudices. It has not been that long since the Civil Rights movement and Second Wave Feminism, and a massive chunk of the voting population are people that were alive when those things were happening. I legitimately think that these are wounds time is healing. Honestly, I would go as far to say that "women are still vocationally, socially, and culturally seen as inferior to men" isn't even true in the western world. It just doesn't hold up when you consider that the number of women in higher education is starting to supersede the number of men.

But the economic issue is completely ignored. Or, at least it is ignored in the United States, and this might be where the disconnect is. We dance around it, we pretend that it isn't there, we cherry pick statistics and fall back an Reaganomic fallacies to avoid the fact that wealth in the western world is slipping out of the hands of the majority, and that young people now will generally live poorer lives than their parents did. And the effects of this? Angst, a willingness to find other groups to blame. People blaming there problems on other races, or sexes, or cultural groups (Blacks are draining resources, or whites are hoarding all the access, or white men are holding everybody else back, or mexicans are taking all our jobs. Hell, there are some motherfuckers out there who blame it one women in the workforce). And this gets proliferated by academics, armchair feminists, tea-party neocons, and internet libertarians who do not want to find a fix that involves something as broad as everything. It is easier to draw lines in the sand, to say that our problems are caused by Group A and if only we thwart Group A everything will be OK. And so, to use speech that might be too Marxist for everyone else's comfort, you end up with a proletariat that is so divided upon itself that it cannot see to its own interests.

But division is sexy. Whoever the fuck it is that is doing it, Tumblr feminists or /pol/ style racists, popular conservative media or academic liberalism, everyone is attracted to pushing people apart so they can claim sole victim status in the economic woes of modern America. And that is simply not helping. If you look at Ferguson and turn it into an issue of black vs white, you create a division that furthers the problem. There is a situation where corruption and a lack of resources has caused a community to take to the streets, but if they look at whites instead of city hall and the national economy that utterly failed them, and if whites in turn grow defensive and start chalking everything up to hooliganism, than absolutely nothing has been fixed. And as these governments fail all of us in turn, we all blame each other.

It's not even like i'm turning this into another "Group A" situation and saying that the problem is the ultra wealthy. It isn't that simple. The ultra wealthy are tumors, but they are tumors caused by the larger disease of our entire world philosophy, and we are as much to blame for their existence as they are. They are a symptom of the same problem that killed the Roman Republic, the codification of our economic code into a moral one so that we cannot change with the times. We have to accept that hard work and material success and liberty and social consciousness have no value outside of what they do for promoting universal human happiness, which should always be our one unmovable cardinal law. And when we have shed all the shit and accept that, when we've decided to focus on rearranging our economic model to fit that goal, all other things will fall into place.

[Darcs]

@Vilageidiotx okay we actually completely agree on most things in this argument, I see where it is we differ now



ALSO;

We can't fix the east from here. We've tried, it doesn't end well.

I actually disagree. I think the internet provides a unique opportunity for people to organize and significantly improve each others lives. Maybe I'm an optimist for thinking a more globalized society is a good thing, I don't know.

With stories like these happening, I can't help but think we can fix the world if we work together.

But that probably makes me sound gay

[Vilageidiotx]

Good, we have a quorum then.

[Gurren1]

Why can't we all be nice to each other instead of playing the oppression game. On another note though it makes me happy to see Guild hasn't been taken over by SJWs(like some other sites) and that discussions like this don't turn into a full on circlejerk or hostile.

[ASTA]

@VilageidiotxBut the fact of the matter is that these are issues that exist independent of an abrasive capitalist ideology, they aren't just symptoms of systematic economic inequalities. They are cancers in their own right, the divide between races and genders in America and the world, but have historical and socio-cultural origins that need to be addressed. That isn't to say that they aren't exacerbated by economic problems, because they are, but in the same vein, the opposite could also be said about social issues worsening economic issues.

By saying that we need to stop focusing on social issues and turn our gaze to the REAL problem that is the capitalist forces of evil, you fall victim to the same problem you accuse me of. You're oversimplifying the issue by splitting it into something that is starkly black and white. You're just swapping the (real) patriarchy with the classism that is the source of evil behind everything.

Trans*people are systematically denied recognition under the law as their gender, homeless people are pushed out of cities and forced further into their situation instead of being offered help, more black men go to prison to fuel the prison industrial complex, Big Pharma fights to get Obamacare repealed, women are still vocationally, socially, and culturally seen as inferior to men, instead of just different, we continue to drone strike the Middle East despite right-wing terrorism being the bigger domestic problem, and conditions on plantations worsen annually while DC does nothing about it. These are complex problems, and no single one really exists independent of the other. It really won't do to try fixing them with ignoring any aspect of them, be it social of economic.

Clearly the real problem here is the state. You should maybe consider becoming an anarchist.

@Darcs

Inequality does not, cannot, and will not exist. Empirical and analytical evidence decrees that humans are inherently unequal. Social stratification is principally founded on the disparities in cognitive capability, emotional stability, and physiological prowess that can be plainly perceived in any given human population.

@Vilageidiotx okay we actually completely agree on most things in this argument, I see where it is we differ now



ALSO;

<Snipped quote>
I actually disagree. I think the internet provides a unique opportunity for people to organize and significantly improve each others lives. Maybe I'm an optimist for thinking a more globalized society is a good thing, I don't know.

@Darcs

This will only yield comparatively fruitful results in only a paltry integer of societies across the globe. Said societies are comprised of non-clannish peoples that have a distinctive penchant for exhibiting affective empathy.

There is a fundamental genetic reason why the lion's share of the world's most progressive and liberal civilizations are Western and Northern European states. Collectively, they spent about 800 years cleansing the alleles of their more violent and psychopathic members from their genetic pool and marrying outside of their immediate kinship circles.

The degree of kin-selection matters. Genes matter. Mating patterns matter.

Being dominated by clannish peoples (with the Middle East being quite known for engaging in cousin marriage), I don't see the Middle East or Africa suddenly accepting that homosexuality is normal, that transgender people deserve a safe space in the contemporary world, and that women need to be unshackled from the potent, malevolent grip of patriarchy.

If you want them to embrace your egalitarian philosophy and its keystone principles, you're going to have to radically genetically engineer them to be something that they are clearly not.

To give you an idea of what you're up against, homophobia is apparently hereditary:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2292426/

The rest can be attributed to environment, but since a people determines the environment that they reside within, you might be looking at a self-created echo chamber that reinforces homophobia.