[OOC] Dragonball: Final Hours

[BCTheEntity]

@Halvtand Holy shit. I really like that idea. I mean, the third option for increasing an android's power level would be "get a mechanic to increase your ki throughput directly", and I think one of the DBZ movies did a similar thing with the Super Android 13! movie, but it definitely works as a character concept. You'd best make that character, good sir. And now, in exchange for my feedback, can I ask you what you think of my idea regarding the Buu-like absorption ability for a Majin?

[Halvtand]

@Halvtand Holy shit. I really like that idea. I mean, the third option for increasing an android's power level would be "get a mechanic to increase your ki throughput directly", and I think one of the DBZ movies did a similar thing with the Super Android 13! movie, but it definitely works as a character concept. You'd best make that character, good sir. And now, in exchange for my feedback, can I ask you what you think of my idea regarding the Buu-like absorption ability for a Majin?

@BCTheEntity

Of course, and thank you for the feedback. I'll check out that movie and see if I can pick anything up.
This this technique isn't one of my favourite parts about DBZ it does seem to be an important part of Majin Buu's character and should've been passed on to his children.
As I remember from the series the technique itself did not require a lot of preparation, but as you yourself states, it is potentially very broken. With that in mind I would probably bump it up to a level three even though the description for level two seems a bit closer to the anime. I would add an extra limiter in that another player must accept to be "hit" because it can completely devastate the character otherwise, and those things never end well. To push it up to level four is in my opinion too much as it would make the technique potentially unusable, the whole point is that it comes as a surprise. If you have to stand around and chant "chocolate beam" for a while it will spoil the effect.

[BCTheEntity]

<Snipped quote by BCTheEntity>

Of course, and thank you for the feedback. I'll check out that movie and see if I can pick anything up.
This this technique isn't one of my favourite parts about DBZ it does seem to be an important part of Majin Buu's character and should've been passed on to his children.
As I remember from the series the technique itself did not require a lot of preparation, but as you yourself states, it is potentially very broken. With that in mind I would probably bump it up to a level three even though the description for level two seems a bit closer to the anime. I would add an extra limiter in that another player must accept to be "hit" because it can completely devastate the character otherwise, and those things never end well. To push it up to level four is in my opinion too much as it would make the technique potentially unusable, the whole point is that it comes as a surprise. If you have to stand around and chant "chocolate beam" for a while it will spoil the effect.

@Halvtand

To be fair, you kind of have to be able to turn into a liquid form to use absorption in that manner at all, since otherwise, you're just kind of... awkwardly pressing yourself up against the target. As for the Chocolate Beam, that struck me as being magic-based rather than ki-based, given that what it did was pretty far beyond anything ki had been shown to do before then, and it (un)fortunately doesn't look like it has a parallel in the mystic techniques listed. But yes, trying to absorb other PCs should probably be something the players agree upon before it goes down in character, not least because at least one variant of it pretty much permanently kills them unless somebody pulls a Vegito to rescue them; I might also suggest, given how it's likely that even the combined power of every single member of the Majin race would be utterly insignificant to the original Buu, that perhaps attempting to absorb somebody far stronger than the Majin itself would lead to severe personality warping even if they then spit the target back out in the manner I described, resulting in a personality shift that could probably only be reverted by some pretty powerful magic.

[Halvtand]

Android posted, give it a look.

[BCTheEntity]

@Halvtand It looks good. However, I seem to recall it being said somewhere that characters are only allowed to start with a single level 3 ki technique? Also, I'm still waiting for additional critique on my Majin absorption ability, specifically from @Thess to confirm that such an ability would be allowed in a character at all.

[Halvtand]

@Halvtand It looks good. However, I seem to recall it being said somewhere that characters are only allowed to start with a single level 3 ki technique? Also, I'm still waiting for additional critique on my Majin absorption ability, specifically from @Thess to confirm that such an ability would be allowed in a character at all.

@BCTheEntity

Can't say I've seen such a rule myself, but I'll see if I can find it or maybe the GM finds me first.

[Thess]

@BCTheEntity I have thought over the absorption ability. Specifically, I did not give the race the ability since it seemed so broken. However, I have had an idea about making it work. Rather than permanently absorbing a character, you absorb them and spit them out, but temporarily obtain their techniques and abilities, in a Rogue-esque fashion. Though I would say no boost in actual terms of power.

@Halvtand I did say only one level 3 technique, I am approving the Namekian you created with two level 3 techniques simply because the character is technically two people that could each have had a level 3 technique. I will look over the android later, though I do like the initial idea of a fusion based line of androids. I will also say that no one in this game will be reaching anywhere near Super Saiyan God's level of power, though the potential may be left there so that other androids could be made with the ability.

[BCTheEntity]

@Thess I mean, it was also broken on Buu, very obviously so, on account of him being a magic-powered superweapon. But, uh... it seems like a reasonable compromise, but not ultimately worth utilising in terms of risk if it's not actually going to make the target a non-threat, whether or not they survive as a separate entity to the absorber. I'll probably come up with something else, in that case... oh, here's another idea I had that I may not have mentioned yet: maybe it's possible for a Majin to have more than one power out of their possible Body Manipulation suite, either by training themselves to utilise the new ones natively or through emulating them as standard ki techniques, but starting with more than one takes up as many additional technique slots as there are extra powers? So if you started with body enlargement normally, then also had transforming into a liquid, the liquid transformation would take up a technique slot as if it were a level 2 ki technique, either because it is a level 2 ki technique, or (and I prefer this explanation) because the time the Majin would have had to train another ki technique was instead used to improve their body manipulation abilities so they could do more stuff with themselves. And, of course, training themselves to perform any Body Manipulation tricks that they didn't start with would also be possible, if time-consuming in the context of game time passage, though most Majin wouldn't necessarily have had the concentration or initiative to realise doing that was even possible in the first place, so that'd be a neat distinguishing feature for such a protagonist.

[BCTheEntity]

@Thess Uh, Thess? I suggested something for Majins in my previous post. I'm just making sure you saw it, is all.

[Thess]

@BCTheEntity I did and I was considering it until I finished reading over the android character sheet. I think it is a really good idea.

@Halvtand Alright, I accept the android character but you are going to have to remove one of the level 3 Ki techniques.

[BCTheEntity]

@Thess Alright, cool, I just wanted to check that we hadn't been forgotten about. I shall make my Majin character tomorrow. And then we'll see who's got the most protagonistic protagonist of all, THESS THE SAIYAN EXPERIMENT GUY.

[Halvtand]

I did say only one level 3 technique, I am approving the Namekian you created with two level 3 techniques simply because the character is technically two people that could each have had a level 3 technique. I will look over the android later, though I do like the initial idea of a fusion based line of androids. I will also say that no one in this game will be reaching anywhere near Super Saiyan God's level of power, though the potential may be left there so that other androids could be made with the ability.

@Thess

Sorry about that, must've missed that part completely. I've put one of the techniques in a hider to save it for later.

About the power level:
Yes, I suspected that we wouldn't reach those levels. Lore-wise that would be a theoretical optimal scenario, but as I state next, there is no way of knowing just how many androids that can still be used. In game terms, what I'm actually saying is that the character will be able to keep up with the main protagonist cast power-wise during the game.

Also: Namekian posted in character-tab for anyone to see.

[BCTheEntity]

@Halvtand Uhhh... do... Namekians actually, like... have life partners...? I mean, if you want to fluff them like that, go ahead, but, uh... I was always just under the impression that they were kind of asexual and/or aromantic. And also only had the one gender, making "male-type Namekian" seem like tautology. Really, I'm just thinking that their whole reproduction method and biology precludes stuff like, uh... like romance. Is all I'm saying. I will also say that Namekian fusion seems to result in an absurd power increase, given the two examples we see of it in the anime, which suggests to me that both Harkon and Limac had absurdly low power levels for their race prior to fusion. Other than that, I wouldn't necessarily suggest that anything is wrong with the character sheet, though miniature Destructo Discs as level 2 techniques seems potentially excessively powerful if they can be produced practically at will, and Healing is absolutely a Mystic technique, so that's something that might want changing.

Oh, and @Thess? I just noticed that you've finished your sheet for the Makaioshin of Pride. It's good. Good job.

[Halvtand]

@Halvtand Uhhh... do... Namekians actually, like... have life partners...? I mean, if you want to fluff them like that, go ahead, but, uh... I was always just under the impression that they were kind of asexual and/or aromantic. And also only had the one gender, making "male-type Namekian" seem like tautology. Really, I'm just thinking that their whole reproduction method and biology precludes stuff like, uh... like romance. Is all I'm saying. I will also say that Namekian fusion seems to result in an absurd power increase, given the two examples we see of it in the anime, which suggests to me that both Harkon and Limac had absurdly low power levels for their race prior to fusion. Other than that, I wouldn't necessarily suggest that anything is wrong with the character sheet, though miniature Destructo Discs as level 2 techniques seems potentially excessively powerful if they can be produced practically at will, and Healing is absolutely a Mystic technique, so that's something that might want changing.

@BCTheEntity

Thanks for the feedback, and normally I would agree with you on pretty much everything here. Let me explain myself.
Life partners: Yes, this is a new one. While all the prominent Namekians we've seen have not been much for hugging, I thought about this for a while and came to the conclusion that while Namekians reproduce asexually, there is no reason for them to lack the feeling of love. After all it was the enormous heartbreak of having all his beloved children slain that killed Guru. So if they can feel love, then they might also feel deeper love for certain members of the race. They may not be able to do the nasty, but they can care for each other and have the type of nurturing and loving relationship that makes romantic comedies as a genre unwatchable.

Male-type: In a world filled with strange people and fanfiction that blatantly disregard canon one can never be too careful. In fact, Namekians doesn't even have one gender, they have none. Male-type describes the social gender that humans would assign this person. So in short, it's your standard Namekian. Also, it's easier to talk about the guy as a "he" instead of an "it".

Fusion: You are correct, this fusion did give Harkon an absurd PL increase. While Limac was a fairly strong warrior of about 800-1000 PL, Harkon was a PL-retard of ca 150. Basically, all he could do was heal, and then hope that the guy he brought back to the front could kick enough ass to save him. The only reason Harkon was even sent to the front was because of his healing ability. Otherwise he'd be back home, getting ready to murder the children in case the makaioshin attacked.

Minidisc of doom: Indeed a potentially broken technique in itself. Thess also reacted to this one.
The thing is that the three disc-techniques are closely related and works pretty much the same way. The smaller disks are faster, but at the same time easier to dodge because of their small size. The larger are slower, but might be harder to avoid due to the area they occupy. All disc-techniques are also about as accurate as a space duck with a jetpack. Once thrown they will go along the intended trajectory without fault. A single step to the side can be enough to dodge.
Like Krillin's D-disc these techniques are best suited for backstab-tactics.
Also, I expect people to dodge them all the time. I'm not the kind of player who wants everything to hit/damage/work/be awesome. DB is all about launching your most powerful shit at someone, only to find that they miraculously dodged or blocked it. Come to think of it, I don't even expect it, I demand it.

Not very mystic healing: Yes, I wrestled with this one myself. Healing is one of the mystic arts, and that's all good. But thinking about the series made this hard. In this game you have to learn the arts, and train them to a certain point. At first I wanted the healing ki to be a genetic mutation caused by breeding between the castes, which couldn't work for obvious reasons... I settled for it being a rare ki-form and went along with that.
The thing that made me place the healing as a ki technique in the first place was Dende.
This snotling didn't show us anything in the way of magic training or even ki-manipulation. Then, after he was touched in his special place by Guru, he was suddenly able to get people back from the brink of death, multiple times. All Guru did was unlock his full potential, the same trick that gave Krillin nothing more that a tiny power boost.
So, instead of writing in magic training just for this one thing (borderline powergaming) I decided to handicap myself (or the character) by making it into a ki technique. I won't get a new one for a good while and pretty soon Harkon will be one of the weakest protagonists in the game which everyone else will have to protect (story and role playing elements!).

So.. Yeah, I think that's most of it. Do let me know what you think. I'm not perfect, maybe it is better to do it in another way. This just made sense to me while I was planning and writing.

[BCTheEntity]

@Halvtand
1. I imagine being near the end of his rope in the first place may also have had something to do with Guru's first "death". That being said, you make a reasonable point, and I suppose there might well be precedent for Namekians to feel romantic love in that case.

2. But they all look like human males. At least all the ones that show up in canon do, anyway. In any case, the distinction is moot, I feel - you don't need to say they're "male-type Namekians", precisely because they all are.

3. I mean... when I say absurd, I mean really a whole hell of a lot of power is gained from Namekian fusion. Nail had a power level of 42000, and Piccolo presumably didn't have much more than that, if he wasn't in fact weaker; yet their fused state escalated Piccolo's power level to more than a million, most likely at least 1.2 million or so given the difference between how he does in his fights against Frieza's second and third forms. Even if we assume that Piccolo miraculously reached a PL of 58000 from his sub-Nappa strength prior to death whilst training with King Kai to round off the combined PL of him and Nail to 100000, that's still a twelve times multiplier on that amount of power, minimum, and it's far more likely that their combined PL was closer to 50000, requiring a multiplier of twenty four times to reach the 1.2 million minimum (lets assume the PL of fusing Namekians is added together prior to the multiplier itself), and probably twenty five times if we assume both the initial combined PL and the fusion multiplier are relatively round numbers. Piccolo's fusion with Kami was presumably a less dramatic boost than that, but given how much weaker Kami was than Piccolo at that stage, and the fact that Piccolo was already a fused being (suggesting reduced potential in future fusions), it'd still have been pretty impressive. Long story short, even the lowest possible combined PL between Harkon and Limic, 950, would likely have resulted in a PL of just under 24000, and the higher number of 1150 would have given even more than that, nearly 29000. In short, Harkon's far too weak for a fused Namekian.

4. ...I mean, maybe? I'm just saying, one clean hit with even a single shuriken could probably take any human-sized target's head off, and it doesn't seem like it takes much time to create one. I'd have figured the actual difficulty in the technique isn't in the amount of ki you put in, but in the way it's spun to form a razor edge, presumably with most of the disc's ki focused at that edge, which is why they're always made to be so large in canon - you may as well make it as likely to hit as you can get, especially since the disc always seem to be going at a fair clip (not the Final Flash's "across the galaxy and blowing up a distant planet in a few seconds" fast, but not overly slow either), and since one can figure out ways of telekinetically manipulating any given disc.

5. Maybe Guru's powerup unlocked Dende's native potential for magic, and Healing just happened to be the field he was naturally skilled in. Maybe his potential unlocking ability had two different types, with the magic type only working on beings with the potential for magic, i.e. not most humans or Saiyans, and certainly not those with a generally martial inclination. Or it just changes what it does depending on what significant potential it senses within any given being. My point is, there's a few possible reasons why Dende suddenly acquired healing abilities, and since he didn't show any potential in ki usage either before then, I have trouble imagining that he had "special ki" which needed its potential unlocking when there's clearly a precedent for magical healing, both in-series and in this game.

[BCTheEntity]

Okay, I created my Majin character. Say hello to Expial, an innovator.

[Thess]

@Halvtand Uhhh... do... Namekians actually, like... have life partners...? I mean, if you want to fluff them like that, go ahead, but, uh... I was always just under the impression that they were kind of asexual and/or aromantic. And also only had the one gender, making "male-type Namekian" seem like tautology. Really, I'm just thinking that their whole reproduction method and biology precludes stuff like, uh... like romance. Is all I'm saying. I will also say that Namekian fusion seems to result in an absurd power increase, given the two examples we see of it in the anime, which suggests to me that both Harkon and Limac had absurdly low power levels for their race prior to fusion. Other than that, I wouldn't necessarily suggest that anything is wrong with the character sheet, though miniature Destructo Discs as level 2 techniques seems potentially excessively powerful if they can be produced practically at will, and Healing is absolutely a Mystic technique, so that's something that might want changing.

Oh, and @Thess? I just noticed that you've finished your sheet for the Makaioshin of Pride. It's good. Good job.

@BCTheEntity

Thank you @BCTheEntity. Some quick answers, Namekians are officially hermaphroditic but their physiques look mostly male, according to an interview with Toriyama. I still think the mini destructo discs are kind of op, but as I understand it, they are most useful like the original as an ambush technique. The Fusion technique is supposed to give off quite the boost, if I were to write down a specific formula for the boost it would likely be the PLs added together and multiplied by 10. I have no real issue with Harkon's PL being raised to show this.

[BCTheEntity]

@Thess I already gave my opinion on most of Halvtand's responses, including my considerations regarding why I think any variant of Destruction Disc should take a notably long time to charge and how I believe Namekian fusion increases PL. And your opinion on Expial?

[Thess]

@BCTheEntity I like Expial, my only concern is Tor-Blade-O. I feel since he has spent so much time focusing on his body manipulation and regeneration that a level 3 technique might be a bit much, even given that he is descended from a living super weapon.

[BCTheEntity]

@BCTheEntity I like Expial, my only concern is Tor-Blade-O. I feel since he has spent so much time focusing on his body manipulation and regeneration that a level 3 technique might be a bit much, even given that he is descended from a living super weapon.

@Thess

I used up three technique slots for racial ability improvement - one to have the regeneration be improved, one for the liquid transformation, and one for body part alteration. Considering that the technique in question is derived from the latter two, and to some extent the racial ability he already had, the only thing he'd really need to work on for it is figuring out how to form the energy blades, which I think you'll agree probably isn't too difficult to achieve somewhere within the 10-15 years of body manipulation practice. After that, it's just a matter of manifesting them on all his limbs at once and spinning around like a crazy gyroscope, neither of which is exactly difficult once you've got the blades themselves down.