[OOC] Blood Runs Over Westeros: A Game of Thrones RP

[FourtyTwo]

I don't feel like posting right now, it's a bit too soon. Plus I feel like letting shit sink in after what happened across the realm. Highgarden is going to be busy, and in some ways, I don't want to rush through what is going on. All of the characters on my end are sinking into what is happening, so I don't want to force say, the Vale or Riverlands to be left behind, nor Daenys. I want to see that colourful character too :)

I am looking forward to seeing this. Shortly. Hehe, dwarf puns, no matter how shameless they are, they're there as material, and it would make me half a man to continue making them. :P

Alerie is definitely a mixture of Olenna and Margarery, the red hair, I don't know how that can be explained mind (and no, she is no bastard, she is definitely a child of ..while interesting, I don't want to do that avenue of things). Garland, I genuinely can't draw comparison, he is no Loras, nor Mace, probably more like Willas or Garlan of Martin's description of the Tyrell family.

[Apoalo]

Yea, though it may be better to have Edrick go to King's Landing instead of Highgarden. Unless you place on keeping Garland there.

[FourtyTwo]

Surprisingly, yes. I actually do plan on moving him, and wasn't because you said that Edrick was going to Highgarden. If Garland say, wrote back, saying to her first of all (ie. before even Willas, yes) that "Yep, I'm going to KL to be Hand", then that might work. Who knows, the Hand needs to make a new council, and no doubt, he will probably be lenient as fuck to people across the Kingdoms, giving it to a lot of people who might not otherwise seem important.

[Dawnscroll]

@Dawnscroll I have to admit, while your post is well written, I'm a little confused about what exactly is going on. I mean, the very first part... why on earth would there be Ironborn raiders on the riverbank if they're making a bolt for Torrhen's Square? Following that, how did the Ironborn Fleet of forty ships get magically reduced to twenty by the time they reached Torrhen's Square? And I mean, probably my main issue... you made the Ironborn fleet seem like a bunch of total amateurs. I mean, Ironborn longships are not small at all; they're 100 oars and stand up to Westerosi Galleys. The Ironborn raiders are renowned for their skills in ship-to-ship combat, they're talented and fearsome warriors - in your post you had a crew of Northmen cut through them like farmboys.

I know that by this point this probably seems like I'm just picking holes in absolutely everything. I would like to clarify that this is not the case, it's just that there are some parts of this particular post that don't quite add up, in my eyes at least. I did ask that Jakkon's fleet isn't totally wrecked... (yes I know I said decimated in my actual post, I didn't know decimated meant 10%, but you got the general idea of what I was asking).

@Vhagar

Simple: Guerilla tactics. Jakkon's mission led him up miles of river, deep into the North territory. That's miles of possible obstructions, sandbars, and enemy territory. That means you're sailing/rowing ships, one after another, AGAINST a current, and likely with little wind to work with. All the rangers had to do was stay a few hundred feet infront of you at any time, causing problems all the while. Dump felled trees into the river and let them float down, blocking your ships. Constant archer sniping on the people on the deck, or if none is visible, tar and fire arrows into the ship itself or the sails. Ropes tied across the riverbank, causing ships to lag and whack into each other. Take your pick of possible ways a group of organized people could slow down ships from sailing upriver.

While this is going on, riders are sent to warn ahead to Torren Square to warn them. Because... like you said, those are some pretty decent sized ships. People are going to notice. That means the fleet is prepared and ready well in advanced, and waiting for you. Did you bring all the food necessary for this voyage, forward in back? Or does it seem more likely that the Ironborn would hunt/forage/raid for additional supplies along the river as they traveled.

You might have rowers, but you don't have the wind, and you don't have maneuverability. You attacked a lake, not the open ocean. Any idea how long it takes to turn a ship, let alone turn it around? Balls slow. Or the arc of travel necessary? Impossible to do on a river. The moment you entered that lake, you bottlenecked yourselves: impossible to retreat, and the leading ships getting smashed to bits by the navy already waiting. Ironwood Ships with trireme rams installed vs Ironborn Longships? Said Ironwood ships only needing to sail in one direction to do their damage?

Let's maybe also look at it from two scenarios: If you made a bolt for Torren Square, NO stopping.... you're tiring your rowers out. We know those aren't thralls, because thralls "toil at tasks such as agriculture and mining, which the ironborn despise." No mention is ever made of them as rowers. So, by the time you get to Torren Square, your fighters are demoralized, tired, and haggard from a guerilla fight. If they stop to rest, they're picked off at night by rangers who know the rivers and woods better than they do. See also, demoralized, tired, and frayed nerves. Ontop of that, theyre fighting a bunch of DEFENDING Northmen who are fresh and rosy-cheeked for this fight.

That journey of yours took weeks when you consider speeds and distance travel. More than enough time run you down into the ground.

And, well, I DID say Jakkon and his better warriors weren't on the ship. Every Ironborn isn't a uber fearsome warrior, just like every Northmen of the One-Hearth isn't a talented fighter (Tormin got hit by friendly fire for crying out loud). But Tormin's rangers are the badasses of the group and he had them to take the ship. That's not saying the North didn't take casualties. We just had more room to play with than you.

Also, if it isn't clear... Tormin ain't exactly a tame wolf. Won't matter if you're armored, when he bezerks, bai~

Greyjoys: 1
Starks: 1

[Apoalo]

I suppose she'll assume that anyway. I'll edit her letter in the IC.

[FourtyTwo]

Fair enough.

That is, if he fucking makes it and goes. Holy shit, we might have our first major character death, and if I'm honest, his heirs are extremely unclear. Alerie is an unmarried female, and the only way she could continue the family line is to marry another Tyrell, yet Rickard isn't inducted into Maesterhood just yet, so technically speaking, he ought to have first pick. Then there's other Lords in the Reach, Loras comes to mind as one that might say "Fuck it then, this is mine". Classic GoT. I mean, I don't know for certain, but the way it is looking, things might get very interesting in the Reach, and those scenarios I said might be very real. I mean, if Garland does die, which as fucking sad as it would be, really destroying my chance to develop his character, would actually bode as a pretty fucking stark reminder. It is completely in the dark what could happen- genuinely, it will either be Daenys, or Garland it feels to me...and the hype is real.

[Major Ursa]

@kingkonrad Cold Hands has been gone for a while, but understandably they have some serious things to attend to IRL. I think I'll finally update the CS and add characters on my part.

[Vhagar]

<Snipped quote by Vhagar>

Simple: Guerilla tactics. Jakkon's mission led him up miles of river, deep into the North territory. That's miles of possible obstructions, sandbars, and enemy territory. That means you're sailing/rowing ships, one after another, AGAINST a current, and likely with little wind to work with. All the rangers had to do was stay a few hundred feet infront of you at any time, causing problems all the while. Dump felled trees into the river and let them float down, blocking your ships. Constant archer sniping on the people on the deck, or if none is visible, tar and fire arrows into the ship itself or the sails. Ropes tied across the riverbank, causing ships to lag and whack into each other. Take your pick of possible ways a group of organized people could slow down ships from sailing upriver.

While this is going on, riders are sent to warn ahead to Torren Square to warn them. Because... like you said, those are some pretty decent sized ships. People are going to notice. That means the fleet is prepared and ready well in advanced, and waiting for you. Did you bring all the food necessary for this voyage, forward in back? Or does it seem more likely that the Ironborn would hunt/forage/raid for additional supplies along the river as they traveled.

You might have rowers, but you don't have the wind, and you don't have maneuverability. You attacked a lake, not the open ocean. Any idea how long it takes to turn a ship, let alone turn it around? Balls slow. Or the arc of travel necessary? Impossible to do on a river. The moment you entered that lake, you bottlenecked yourselves: impossible to retreat, and the leading ships getting smashed to bits by the navy already waiting. Ironwood Ships with trireme rams installed vs Ironborn Longships? Said Ironwood ships only needing to sail in one direction to do their damage?

Let's maybe also look at it from two scenarios: If you made a bolt for Torren Square, NO stopping.... you're tiring your rowers out. We know those aren't thralls, because thralls "toil at tasks such as agriculture and mining, which the ironborn despise." No mention is ever made of them as rowers. So, by the time you get to Torren Square, your fighters are demoralized, tired, and haggard from a guerilla fight. If they stop to rest, they're picked off at night by rangers who know the rivers and woods better than they do. See also, demoralized, tired, and frayed nerves. Ontop of that, theyre fighting a bunch of DEFENDING Northmen who are fresh and rosy-cheeked for this fight.

That journey of yours took weeks when you consider speeds and distance travel. More than enough time run you down into the ground.

And, well, I DID say Jakkon and his better warriors weren't on the ship. Every Ironborn isn't a uber fearsome warrior, just like every Northmen of the One-Hearth isn't a talented fighter (Tormin got hit by friendly fire for crying out loud). But Tormin's rangers are the badasses of the group and he had them to take the ship. That's not saying the North didn't take casualties. We just had more room to play with than you.

Also, if it isn't clear... Tormin ain't exactly a tame wolf. Won't matter if you're armored, when he bezerks, bai~

Greyjoys: 1
Starks: 1

@Dawnscroll

Ok. The first part about wearing down the fleet as they approach, fair enough. Well played.

1. In your writing you wrote it out as the small Longships were smashed to splinters straight up. Except they're not smaller, and they don't have standard hulls. The Ironborn have the strongest navy for a reason. That's not to say a ram wouldn't smash them, but you literally wrote it as bang, that's it entire fleet totally smashed. That would not happen.

2. Actually, we do have maneuverability. Do you have any idea what an Ironborn Longship is? Let me tell you. The sails normally serve a more decorative than functional purpose. Longships are not galleys, their movement comes from their rowers, and thus they have full movement capability even without the wind. Secondly, they are made symmetrically. Both ends of the ship are bows. They don't have to turn around, they can literally just row the other way, with the exact same functionality.

3. Sailors are not warriors, warriors are not sailors. Just because the rowers have been working hard that doesn't mean the Ironborn warriors are worn out, since there are very few of them doing the rowing. Why would they be demoralised if they're off to do exactly what they believe they were born to do?

4. Your journey time seems horribly estimated. You're coming up with a time that suits you best. Theon Greyjoy is te only character who's made that journey that we are told of. He is a captain of little experience and a crew that doesn't support him, yet in the sequence of events it seems he makes the journey in about a week, give or take a few days. The chances of you doing as much damage as you assume you would have in that period of time is very small.

5. Lets consider this. One Ironborn soldier, against one Northman. The North have only had a navy for the last couple of hundred years. The Northern navy has seen very little action I would assume since they don't carry out raids or go to war. Yet he is up against an Ironborn soldier. He doesn't have to be a terrific warrior; he has a few raids under his belt, he's fought ship-to-ship before. He has every advantage possible in a one-on-one situation. Yet the Northmen, with little experience at ship-to-ship combat, destroys the Ironborn fleet. These are ships of the Iron Fleet. These are veterans, hardened raiders and soldiers, not run of the mill Ironborn pirates. Yet the Northmen destroy them without trouble anyway.

6) Why on earth would Jakkon not be on the Windbreaker? Where on earth would he be if not on his own ship when the fighting starts? I mean, Jakkon vs Tormin on the decks of the Windbreaker? Jakkon would cleave Tormin in half. Tormin is a ranger, not a sailor. He's used to patrolling the land and fighting with guerrilla tactics. Yet suddenly he's thrown on a ship and he's like the next Arthur Dayne. He can go as berserk as he wants, fighting on a ship is totally different. There's no space for him to scurry around and use agility to his advantage, he's locked in extreme close quarters fighting in a battle of brute strength. And he is up against veteran opposition. And among them, Jakkon Greyjoy. Jakkon is easily one of if not the most formidable Ironborn warrior alive. He's in his natural environment on the deck of his ship, fighting in a way he's only too used to. Tormin would not, quite frankly, stand a chance. I'm not sure if you're aware, but fighting on a ship is totally different to fighting on land. You couldn't fill a ship with standard soldiers and set them against hardened sea-going warriors and expect them to just wreck them. Because they would not.

[FourtyTwo]

@Major Ursa

I was thinking of letting you post, though I don't know entirely how that will work out. To be honest, I will post tomorrow later in the evening if I do, and it will be pretty long, definitely something to bring me back into line with the goings n.

[Bluetommy]

That is, if he fucking makes it and goes. Holy shit, we might have our first major character death

@kingkonrad

I aim to have that, thank you.

[agentmanatee]

@Vhagar@Dawnscroll
I AM NOT TAKING SIDES
I am going to review both your points as a neutral third party and point out what does and does not make since
Info coming shortly
Also doing research, to get super informed

[Bluetommy]

@agentmanatee I'll listen to your points, I've made my points as well, once your opinion is up I'll give my verdict.

[agentmanatee]

1. V is correct, Jakkonn WILL be on his ship. This is indisputable

2. Though Iron born longships are large, an Ironwood galley WILL destory one with a ram, especially if they are moving with the current.

3. Theon made the trip with 1 ship, that is a considerably quicker journey than 40 could make, I imagine that is probably an extra week AT LEAST

4. The iron fleet is indeed the elite force, only loyal and generally experienced raiders will be in it, meaning they will be hard fought to be defeated in ship to ship if they manage to board

5. That being said, Northman have it on solid ground, meaning the gurreila warfare will take a significant toll as you would not be able to counter attack. A psychological effect WOULD descend on the raiders after a week or so of this, as Iron Born are genrally less disciplined than other soldiers(We have seen this fact CONSTANTLY throughout the books and show), though I doubt deserters(they are on boats and experienced raiders), it will effect their sleep, and therefore their combat skills.

6. If Jakkon fights Tormin on boat Jakkon=win, IN A FAIR FIGHT. If Jakkon is outnumbered, for any reason, he will most likely lose(but take some Northman with him)

7. With 40 ships, none ironwood, two weeks travel up river, little to no wind assistance, I would guess around 10 ships will be lost to the arrows/other attacks of rangers, maybe a few less. One or two may have issues, such as crushed by a tree or run ashore as a result.

8. IN ACTUAL BATTLE
Iron born are better sailors and ship to ship combat, however by now ARE at least somewhat demoralized
They are most likely also outnumbered, leading to further demoralization.m m
Ironwood galley = better than an Ironborn longship, larger by a noticeable amount, tougher due to material, if up to speed will crush a longship, not splinters but sink ,taking armored Iron born(they have balls and do in fact where heavier armor on deck) to drowning death.
Longships better at maneuvering WILL board several galleys, take fight to northerners, will most likely win these exchanges. IF THEY WERE IN TOP SHAPE
They are not
The soldiers have been unable to fight rangers, will be tired from sleepless nights, not at their peak
Northerners are fresh, ready and on the defensive
I imagine an iron to north win loss ratio at 50-50, or 55-45, or posiibly 60-40
Ironborn are outnumbered, numbers WILL start to make a difference
We have seen Iron men betray commanders and run before, real commanders not Theon(A Humble is murdered by a fellow Iron man when Boltons come to town)
It may take a bit, but as numbers start to show, at least a few ships will most likely flee back down river, and Ironborn will see this and start to join. Jakkon and crew will not, to proud-to scared of captain whatever.

MOST LIKELY OUTCOME OF BATTLE
EXTREMELY hard fought northern victoy.
Expect sunken galleys, loss of men, general loss of life and resources, but Iron fleet there fleeingm and severely crippled.
Jakkon most likely captured or just killed(All it takes is one fall off boat and Jakkon drowns, plate and deep water do not mix)

I feel the post about the lead up and actual battle does require editing, but I believe a northern victory is likely, if a costly victory. Jakkon will most likely be captured.

I'm sorry, but from what I have researched this is how it is, Tormin may even be dead, it is a HELL of a fight. But remember 1 ship moves a LOT faster than 40, loyal or not, and the north has more ships in the lake, especially once Rangers exact their toll.
(Also add like... another 5 days to sailing from ranger interference)

No blodbath(except a mutual one), no slaughter, a hard fight with a pyyrhic victory is what I see.

[Dawnscroll]

In which case, we have a ton of points to bring up with the Bear Island ninja dead of night curbstomp.

[Bluetommy]

@agentmanatee Hmm, well I won't let a PC be killed or captured without player permission, I'd say the best course for now is for @Vhagar and @Dawnscroll to get on a titanpad and work this out together.

[agentmanatee]

@bluetommy2 Ok, if you want I will join them to mediate, and make certain no one IRL murders anyoneXD

[Bluetommy]

@agentmanatee Probably best.

[Dawnscroll]

I'd love to know how raiding defenseless fishing villages suddenly makes someone a superb combatant. As opposed to someone... yknow, actually trained for combat.

[agentmanatee]

@Dawnscroll watch it,don't insult eachother. Men in the Iron fleet have raided more than fishig villages. There the ones who take castlees and forts

[FourtyTwo]

Fuck, even me and Manatee aren't this bad, and we're fighting for a crown that you know, actually has fucking dragons, tits, wine and lots of politics involved. See, you're doing it for thralls, we're doing it for the aformentioned, where do you think the stakes are higher? :D

To be honest, in our war, it's back and forth like a ping-pong ball. Tyrells have more men, King's Landing, foreign raiders, the Targaryens of one side, the Crakehalls have a weathered Lord, and potentially the Riverlands and even the North too, if they work out well. Not one sword has been stirred between the two factions just yet, but who knows, it is only a matter of time before blood runs...and the sigils of both sides are seen to be doing it.

We need a name for this war, I am pondering what they will call this crisis, viewpoint depending.

Post 600! Woooop!