[OOC] Black Mountain Tournament: Iolanthe vs Sigurd

[MelonHead]

Arena 1: Windswept cliffs



Falling off the cliff kills you, obviously. The small rocks near the center of the area are about five feet high at their highest point, and are wide enough to reasonably be used as cover. Fighters start on the marked red circles. The ground is rocky and uneven, but level overall. Weather conditions will be normal for the first 10 posts of the fight, after which strong winds will begin blowing harshly across the arena, starting from left to right and switching direction every other turn.

[MelonHead]

@Chimera

[MelonHead]

Just so we're clear on positioning, Sigurd is currently standing between the two rocks shown in the middle of the map above. Is your character taking a position in line with the northern exit?

[Chimera]

Yep, you read the post right.

[Chimera]

Hmmmmm. "Had Sigurd’s shield been just ordinary wood, his foe may have just made a grievous error." I'm not sure how this would be true! If she shield was wood, Iolanthe would've easily destroyed it, giving herself an advantage... her spear would ignite it quickly, making it hard to weigh her down, she could toss it aside in one swing with ease. This is irrelevant, though... it just struck me as odd.

Also a question: What's the likelihood of a piercing attack getting slightly stuck in between dragon scales? If high, what are the chances of crow-bar style peeling one of the scales off?

[MelonHead]

It's usually a bad idea to strike with force using what essentially amounts to a spear into a wooden shield, because of the likelihood of it getting stuck (the lance's ability to ignite it with time would be moot when we're talking about split second movements, unless you're suggesting your lance has lightsaber like qualities, which would be far beyond this tier level) which would make it easy for the shield user to disarm the spearman, or at most tangle them up for the necessary time for the swordsman to close.

It's obviously possible for the scales to be pierced, but when utilized on a shield and held at an angle from the strike it would be difficult for pressure to be exacted in such a way that the point would make purchase. The spear would have to hit the shield/scales head on, or from below, to have the best chance. Obviously Sigurd is not likely to let his shield be hit head on, because Vikings (which is what his fighting style is based off roughly) didn't use shields in that fashion.

If the lance pierced the scales, I suspect it would break through the wood like I mentioned before so the crowbar motion would be unnecessary, but I wouldn't necessarily call that beneficial.

Also, feel free to look anything I say up, if you find someone disproving me let me know, I'm only running on what I've heard HEMA experts say and what I've read in historical sources. I'm a modern history student predominantly, medieval and ancient histories are a hobby, not my degree.

[Chimera]

Most spears would get stuck, yes, but I suppose I figured the triangular shape of her spear would be better described as a lance. There is no bulk at the tip to get stuck, if it went in clean, it'd be just as easily withdrawn. The superheated blade would serve as a lubricant of sorts, making it hard for wood to clamp on to the blade. The end result would've been a loss of a shield, and given Iolanthe's abundance of these, she'd be able to defend herself easily whilst tossing the log aside, or simply retracting her arm. Of course, Sigurd wouldn't have to worry about damage to that arm had he worn a wooden shield, so it'd have done little for either of them.

As for the scaled shield... now that would serve as more of a disadvantage if Iolanthe's spear got stuck in there, cause it'd take too long to peel off the scales, giving Sigurd room to retaliate. That's what I wanted to know. She'll find that out later if we get to a scene like that.

If you've read Iolanthe's backstory, you'd figure that I've also studied ancient history. This fight wouldn't have taken place in reality, given the timespan between the early Roman empire, and when the Vikings began raiding Saxony and Frankia. This is like a special episode of The Deadliest Warrior!

[MelonHead]

Hmm, I'm unsure what you were going for with that move. You had the choice to maintain distance and use the lance, or close and use the shield, but trying to do both was always going to cause conflict. Also, drawing the gladius at such an important point seemed like a mistake to me, though feel free to refute, as T1 usually goes it's disadvantageous to try too much at one time. Simpler moves are usually more effective.

[Chimera]

Is it my lack of any arena wins that makes it seem as though I need to be taught how to fight?

/Cracks her knuckles/

[MelonHead]

Is it my lack of any arena wins that makes it seem as though I need to be taught how to fight?

/Cracks her knuckles/

@Chimera

I don't remember trying to teach you to fight.

[Doc Doctor]

Hmm, I'm unsure what you were going for with that move. You had the choice to maintain distance and use the lance, or close and use the shield, but trying to do both was always going to cause conflict. Also, drawing the gladius at such an important point seemed like a mistake to me, though feel free to refute, as T1 usually goes it's disadvantageous to try too much at one time. Simpler moves are usually more effective.

@MelonHead

<Snipped quote by Chimera>

I don't remember trying to teach you to fight.

@MelonHead

[MelonHead]

That's quite clearly me rationalising the situation and my own understanding of it, I didn't say "You should do this young Padawan." I don't teach anyone, certainly not close combat with swords and spears, which I've admitted in the past to being poor with (due to a complete lack of real world experience.)

Also, as you're clearly here to bait Doc, I'd ask you to leave now, unless you'd prefer I ask Pollen to request you stay in your own fight thread?

[Chimera]

I suppose the thick of combat has me a bit vindictive, my apologies if you didn't meant to condescend. I didn't see myself as having only two options, however, and all of my recent moves weren't all-in time consuming acts... I'll explain the rest in my IC post, since I too feel like the advantage of this fight has turned in my favor.

[Doc Doctor]

Ask someone to ask me to go somewhere else!? Sweet Momma! I had better go do that, lest the consequences give me nightmares.

[MelonHead]

Is there something magic about her shield I'm missing? I'm unsure how striking the blade from that angle would result in anything more than diverting the point into your character's right lung rather than her heart. It seems like Sigurd's thrust is just dissapearing into nothingness.

Anyway, I can see your still editing, which is dodgy but I'll let you finish and reserve my post until tomorrow. Though my opponent in a recent tournament actually lost for editing their post after the fact (with anything more than cosmetics).

[Chimera]

If he's making a stab motion, which he is, the entire power of his attack can indeed disappear in to nothingness if Iolanthe struck the side of the blade before it reached her. Since it's very easy to redirect kinetic force from the side, instead of head on, his attack won't ever reach her body past the girth of her shield bash, whilst she leads with her left arm. His sword is more likely to cut his own shoulder, or slit his own throat, now that it has been blocked.

There's nothing magical about the shield, she was tracking his movements, and as you said, he didn't gain much distance with his side-step. Her entire post before the current was an attempt to keep his sword on the other side of her shield, so surely she'd adjust the trajectory of it to compensate his small side-step.

I edited the word 'movement's' in to 'movements'... I couldn't stand the fact I made that one typo. You'll see no more edits from me, my apologies.

[MelonHead]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your character's shield is strapped to her forearm which is how she's able to draw her sword with her left hand. While drawing the sword the shield would be pressed up against her left side, so moving it to compensate for Sigurd's sidestep would be impossible at that time. It is indeed fairly easy to redirect kinetic force from the side, but I highly doubt you could divert the blade sufficiently in this disadvantaged scenario (sword is angled to the right, pressure coming in from the same direction) to push it from the left side of your characters body to the right and completely away from her. It would either hit the opposite side of her chest, or presumably her arm or shoulder. The sword isn't going to rebound backwards like hitting a brick wall with a hammer.

I'd have to let @Drifting Pollen review the events so far, as I can't accept my character's thrust being voided in this fashion.

[Drifting Pollen]

Oooh man, this is getting interesting!

Don't mean to interject or anything (you're both doing well so far), but I've encountered a similar situation to this in one of my own old fights (on another site)...

I think Melon is saying that even if his blade was pushed sideways by the shield, this would only divert the path of the stab to a slightly less lethal location. However, Chimera is contending that it would, seeing as Iolanthe effectively slammed the blade to one side, whilst moving in closer herself (so Sigurd's wrist would feel the impact, if that makes sense). Melon is thinking in terms of objects, while Chimera is thinking in terms of movement/energy... hope that helps you both understand each other?

I do actually have experience using swords, and can offer my opinion if needed... but hopefully you two will be able to work it out yourselves :)

Also, @Chimera, editing IC fight posts is generally not recommended, unless it's literally within moments of posting, or in the case of an edit mutually agreed upon. I'll let it slide for now (you don't seem to be abusing it and Melon doesn't mind), but just a note for the future.

[Drifting Pollen]

Okay, seems you two want a verdict. Give me a minute...

[Chimera]

It would be extremely uncomfortable for her arm, if she kept it bent so far to the side at all times... the shield is always either facing forwards, or diagonally a bit to her left, but mostly in front of her. It would be simply ignorant to keep her shield aimed anywhere else. Also by pressing forward with her left foot, the first and closest thing to Sigurd, aside from the tip of Hyperion, is indeed Iolanthe's hoplon. Also it was stated earlier that she shield veiled sight of her drawing the gladius - which truly fortifies the fact it faced forward as to protect the surprise of her fighting style. Sigurd couldn't have seen her drawing the gladius in the first place to take advantage of her movements.