[OOC] Running and Gunning - Higan Vs. The Magna Pater

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead
Hope it's okay if I use Shash's home territory. Is it fine if you make the first post? If I did, it would just be of Shash rolling over in his sleep.
Arena: The Forest of the Lost

An eerie forest consisting of two million square acres. The sun rarely meets the ground, there are several 14'er mountains in the area, and a couple of small villages on the outskirts.

Sub-Arena: The Cavern of the lost


A vast network of winding, mazelike caves that stretch on for a hundred miles under ground, home to the thing that haunts the forest. There are seven entrances scattered throughout the woods. Each entrance is only large enough to admit a large-sized man, and the cavern is of basalt, dolomite and calcium carbonate rock. Shasheuss's primary chamber measures one-hundred and fifty feet in height, three miles in length and width. It is brimming with stalagmites, stalactites, and tens of thousands of skeletons. In the middle of the lair is a pile of bones that almost reaches the ceiling.

Plot: Sometimes people just disappear without explanation. It is a fact of life we have all learned to accept. This stands especially true for those living on the edge of the Forest of the Lost. For as long as anyone could remember, none that have ventured far into the forest have returned. The bloodlines of each lost soul are wiped clean, for often before a year has passed their homes are left devoid of life, those inside having seemingly vanished off the face of the earth without warning. Unfailingly, those who do not watch closely over their children will soon find them unaccounted for. They are never allowed to play at dusk or dawn, and never do they frolic without a guardian close by. If one is not found, no search parties are sent lest they wind up missing too. This fact is not obscure. Many around the world know, as they do of such things as the Bermuda Triangle and Stonehenge. Why then has not man tried to conquer this great unknown, as he has many others? Just as it is known that anyone who puts a gun to their head and pulls the trigger will die, so is it certain that only fools and dead men wander the realm of The Magna Pater.

But perhaps, it is time for this mystery to be brought to light...?

[MelonHead]

No problem, for story purposes I'm going to have Higan pursuing your character through a rift that had opened on his homeworld after it started preying on Ramor in the Grent Republic. That's the only reason I can think of for the conflict, is that fitting of your monster's M.O?

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

Yup, but keep in mind that it is like the Solid Snake of monsters. By the time Higen is on its trail (not that it leaves trails), it could be waiting miles away.

[MelonHead]

@MelonHead

Yup, but keep in mind that it is like the Solid Snake of monsters. By the time Higen is on its trail (not that it leaves trails), it could be waiting miles away.

@Doc Doctor

That's just my explanation for why Higan is even in the area, though I've already thought of two or three methods by which the A.S.P could track your creature, particularly in light of its limited flight capabilities.

I'll start working on a post now, going to take a little while as I have to dig up a past fight with Higan and re-enter his mindset.

[MelonHead]

Oh, also you spelled Higan's name wrong in the title ;D

How does that affect the perfectionist in you?

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

I think his name gives me dyslexia.

[MelonHead]

I think his name gives me dyslexia.

@Doc Doctor

Close enough, I wouldn't want you to tax yourself too much with names and such like, there's death to be avoided.

[MelonHead]

That avoidance was awfully vague, does the Pater have spider senses? It would be nice to know for future reference. All this time I`'ve been missing a trick I should have all my characters be able to pull off dodges by merit of historical attacks against them of vague similarity. As a Anti material round and a super arrow really aren't that comparable.

[MelonHead]

Now I`m not saying that while turned around and running away with no mention of continued sonar it would be difficult to detect the Mechs rifle movements from three quarters of a mile away. But considering the speed of the round I believe scientifically speaking the round would be in your character before echo location would reveal it had even moved. the round is travelling about 800 meters per second which is almost three times the speed of sound.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead
In my post I specifically wrote that it didn't dodge the bullet, just where the mech was aiming. There is absolutely nothing in my post hinting at it so much as even considering to move after the round was fired. The super arrow and super bullet are comparable in that they are both too fast to avoid once shot, and can fuck shit up royally. Also, the arrow moved at mach 3 too, if you'd read the link I left. The Magna Pater's senses are ridiculously powerful, just like those of the mech, on top of it being crazy smart with close to two-thousand years of experience. It doesn't need to face something to use sonar, its hearing is just that good. One of Shash's biggest selling points is that hardly anything can take it by surprise, least of all things it has seen before.

[MelonHead]

I'm not particularly refuting that, I'm refuting your character's ability to know the Mech had targeted it (or done anything) and dodge accordingly. By the time the sound waves registering the rifle moving (even this is sort of a leap, it suggests the Pater had absolutely no faith in its camouflage and prepared to evade the moment the Mech made any moves with its rifle, unless it were somehow aware the Mech had a very specific vision type perfect for cold blooded vampire xenomorphs) arrived the bullet would already be there, for previously mentioned reasons. I'm not saying the attack is unavoidable, but rather that the method you chose is both unrealistic and scientifically improbable. Similar to when DJ used the rationale that his character in the tournament heard a bullet fired and dodged accordingly, when it would simply have been more effective to say he saw the trigger being pulled. Sound is slower than light, which is why at extreme long range your character is at a disadvantage due to its sightlessness and reliance on Echolocation. Interesting you chose to fight at such extreme range, considering.

It's of particular importance as your character seems to have already figured out how to avoid the Electric vision as well. If Higan can't score even a glancing hit first to convince him it's even possible to bring it down he'll probably just head home and bring in a heavy squad with flamethrowers.

If you want to get -really- mathematical about it, though the general gist is sufficient in my opinion.

1. Higan adjusts and fires, which as my sheet says takes 0.20 seconds
2. Bullet fires towards targets pre-determined location taking around 1.2 seconds, add on the 0.20 of adjustment in Pater's favour, sound waves bounce back off turret pointing in the Pater's general direction
3. Bullet arrives up to three times faster than the sound waves, which take up to five seconds, dictating the Mech's movements.

So how has the Pater managed to use information from those sound waves to pre-emptively avoid the attack?

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

If somebody pointed a gun at you from long range, faith or no faith you'd try to move, right? It sensed the mech aiming at it, even after it tried to throw Higan off its trail by changing course, meaning that it knew that the mech knew where it was. Even if the mech was quick about it, the Magna Pater as I have stated many times is very, very smart. Why would it get cocky and assume it threw off the mech just like that? With guns like those, of course it would be prepared to evade heavy fire. "Unrealistic" and "scientifically improbable" have no place in a match where a vampire xenomorph bat and a mech that is somehow fine turned to find it no matter what are tearing up a haunted forest after having emerged from a dimensional portal. I know how my own character's senses work, just as you do yours. The Magna Pater can detect pressure gradients as well as sound, as I specified in its profile, and 1.4 seconds is easily enough for it to notice the threat and take evasive measures. If it relied purely on sound and smell, it would have difficulty even handling common archers. That's why it can sense very slight changes in air pressure from sudden movements miles away.

And it would be incredible if Higan brought in a flamethrower team. We'd have WWIII on our hands.

[MelonHead]

Like I said, I'm not completely refuting the Pater's ability to avoid the shot, I'm refuting the fashion in which you did it because it's scientifically unsound. If we're going to use guns and echo-location we have to adhere to what those things actually do, otherwise we might as well scrap every shred of logic and restriction and go absolutely fucking crazy. It seems like you're corroborating my original joking comment that the Pater in fact does have spider senses, so what you're saying is you don't really have to be hit by anything unless you feel like it, just coz 'it knows shit.' Should I also have Higan randomly know where the Pater is after it has confounded his Mech's optics, just coz 'science magic?'

If your character can in fact use its air power to feel everything the Mech is doing from that range that's pretty damn close to Omniscience, which is pretty bullshit as an Arena power. You'll notice even with my highly advanced Mech it only has 180 degree vision. Completely removing the ability for anyone to do anything unexpected what-so-ever is not a mid-tier ability, its T8-9. I was under the impression it would only work at short range for spotting projectiles, as the description suggests with 'subsonic.' Therefore, by merit of your own description in the sheet, unless you're now refuting that and saying your alien does have practical omniscience, your character is relying on echolocation, which will fail for the reasons I've mentioned.

So, in my opinion, the Pater can only avoid the round in any fashion by using its air sensing power to feel the round coming, which in turn should probably only account for a partial dodge, but I don't particularly care if you -must- avoid all damage, only that you do it in a fashion that doesn't suggest you're going to bullshit your way out of any threat Higan can pose. It sets a bad precedent.

There are other arguments I might have raised, but I'm giving your 'the Pater is old and knows all the things' argument credibility. Even if it does seem to stray a little uncomfortably into foresight. What I'm not accepting is 'The Pater knows how to deal with this shit lol why would it not move'. Because if that were the case, why was the Pater not zig-zagging or moving in a fashion considered unpredictable in the previous post? It was just gliding the fuck around like a big slimy flying squirrel.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead
I don't get it. I just don't. I know what my character sheet says, it's right next door after all. The echolocation can detect things that are subsonic, but its ability to detect air pressure can sense things that are supersonic, both having a range of four miles and making up for what the other sense lacks. It is similar to omnipresence, yes, but you know, that is sort of to make up for how it is forty times lighter than the mech and the best protection it has, its wings, could never stop the large caliber bullets Higan can spam. It obviously isn't fast enough to avoid guns at close range, so the only alternative is to be able to know when to dodge with expert timing. You want to cripple that ability O.O.C'ly though. Frankly I'm amazed that you've called my character OP when clearly it is the underdog in this situation.

You say my poor beastie ought to be able to stand a chance at mid range, yet I doubt you'd let me get away with having it try to so much as get into close range. It can't break through the armor or hope to overpower Higan. If he got close to it, he'd grab its slimy ass, shove his long, big gun down its gullet, and fire off a load that would make Dirty Harry blush. The only thing Shash is trying to do is get some breathing room and find an opening, and you seem to be saying everything would go to hell in a hand basket were my character to be any darn mightier. It simply baffles me. I know I agreed to this match despite knowing how strong Higen was, but I knew also just how good at evasion Mr. Pater was as well. I figured you would be alright with me having a single advantage in this battle, but I guess not.

You say its not fair that Shash can dodge the very first attack launched at it, and I say its not fair that you say it can't. If the Magna Pater gets a chunk blown off, you win because it can no longer hide properly thanks to its leaking juices and the mech's (not mentioned on the profile) ability to detect "anomalies" and teeny traces of animal matter. We all live "fairly" ever after.

But, I don't like to bicker. If you really, really insist, I'll go ahead and just take the hit, despite how I feel on the matter, only for the sake of progress.

[MelonHead]

I never said your character was overpowered, in fact I believed from the start it wasn't really equipped to deal with the Mech which is why I offered the Clockwork Man instead. What I do think is overpowered is the ability to sense absolutely everything an opponent is doing with the only limitation being ranges exceeding what you'd expect T5/6's to be able to conceivably attack at. Not only do I think that power is overpowered however, but it's also completely contrary to what you said your character could do. It uses echolocation to detect enemies, which is a perfectly acceptable substitute for sight and also far more useful in many fashions, such as being able to see an enemy behind you or in the dark while running away. It's limitation scientifically is that it relies on sound, which is slow. It was not the optimum method for avoiding the bullet, in fact it was not even a possible method for avoiding the bullet.

It has just occurred to me that I may have a serious OCD that Arena triggers, but the moment something happens that seems contrary to what is physically possible I must question it.

Regardless, your character does have its air pressure ability, which is obviously used for avoiding projectiles. Using that would be completely fine but -not- in the fashion you're describing, sensing the movement of the rifle (if it were, why would the Pater have echolocation at all, when the air method is far more overpowered). It's up to you whether you believe your character could avoid the bullet upon sensing it with its air pressure ability, it's not up to you to bend the rules of physics and have sound move faster than the rifle round.

Ultimately, with your character now invisible to the only remaining method Higan has of spotting it, the only way this fight -can- conceivably continue is for your character to be winged by the round. At which point Higan can pursue its blood with his Computer Sytems. Hell, it might even be able to turn it to its advantage. (With the computers I admit to taking liberties with, though only for the sake of necessity as you had made your character completely un-trackable and miles away, story wise Higan would not wander the woods for days, that would be insane and pointless.)

[MelonHead]

Your characters advantages, I might add, are still surmountable. Complete knowledge of the local area, now manifesting in total invisibility. This was actually the only point where Higan himself may have had an advantage, seeing as your character has an inherent ability to become immune to everything once its used once, his first strike was surely going to be his best.

The trees limit both visibility and manoeuvrability for the Mech. Using its primary weapon would be highly problematic and unlikely, it also has to deal with numerous plains of engagement, above, forward and behind. The Mech doesn't really have quick or lethal melee capabilities, so at close range the Pater can test its durability and fuck around with it with quick darting attacks. The Pater could also just throw rocks at it or some other similarly annoying action.

Also Higan could run out of ammunition, and ultimately the Pater can disengage at any time and there's really nothing he could do about it, so it's unlikely the Pater would even lose/die if Higan gained a strong advantage over it. Anyway, if you're going to fix the echo-location disparity we can stop OOC'ing and move on.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

Does the Magna Pater strike you as something that would play around with a metal behemoth that it already knows it probably can't hurt? It is a watcher and a stalker, and only resorts to plain violence when against something helpless or vulnerable. It also doesn't know he has finite ammunition. I digress though. Regardless of what you say is or isn't a disparity *Cough*anomolyanimalmattersensors*Cough*, I will indeed move on.

[MelonHead]

Like I said, there's a big difference between slightly embellishing what a certain bit of technology can do to ensure a fight can actually happen story-wise and suddenly manifesting an immensely powerful combat ability. You could probably infer that the Computer Systems have a wide range of biological analysis tools considering it has both electric vision and the ability to detect the thickness of a material just by looking at it. However, with the exception of putting Higan in the vague area of the Pater so a battle can actually happen, it's not particularly combat applicable.

And I only utilized it at all because I expected your creature to be underground in its lair, so without that tool Higan wouldn't have been able to see it and would have had to give up in the face of days of walking through a shitty forest that laughs at him. It's hard playing a solider character, although he's made the matter personal he's not suddenly turned into a complete incompetent, so keeping the conflict alive is difficult to reconcile with Higan's personality and characteristics.

Also, it's pretty weird that the Pater seems so smart and cunning and yet hasn't worked out its enemy would have finite ammunition. Unless it's ran into an abundance of space aliens converting energy into projectiles I'd assume the only ranged opponents its ever faced would have finite ammo.

Also I'm horrible for having to have the last word, sue me.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead
Slightly embellishing my ass, you scamp you. Suddenly manifesting my ass, you scamp you. Hypocrisy, says I! At least I have all of my character's abilities written down. Shash's greatest strength is its capability as an ambush predator. Without stealth there is no ambush, and if there is no ambush there is no predator. Higan's sensors nullify that. 180 degrees of vision as a major weakness? If Higan can't see it in the distance in front of him he just needs to turn around in a circle. He can annex the woods tree by tree. You may have expected me to conveniently let Shash reach his lair right off the bat. He clearly did not, and won't for a while, so even if you say that was the expectation the results are clearly different.

As for its sudden trick to hide, if you knew what that was you'd laugh out of pity.

[MelonHead]

No, I thought Shash would be in his lair from the outset of the fight because when you said you wanted me to post first you mentioned he'd just be 'rolling around in his sleep.' Therefore I didn't have Higan's Electric vision immediately detect the Pater (partially because you hadn't posted so I had no idea where it was) when he did exactly what you mention and span around 360. If there was literally no trace of his enemy Higan would have had to turn back.

I never actually said 180 degree vision was a major weakness, in fact its probably a strength by all accounts, but it's not complete vision. Also, by modern technological standards it's still fairly weak, he could easily have motion sensors or some other exceptional detection equipment. Considering the A.S.P is a scouting vehicle though I decided to just give it really good frontal vision.

Also, in regards to the Pater's ability to fight as an ambush predator, I hardly think that my 'ahem' embellished Computer tracking is really that much of a counter. It allows the Pater to leave false trails or lure Higan, without giving him any distinct impression of where the Pater is in anything less than a given mile or so of forest. If anything you should have been more wary of his Electric vision, definitely more of a threat to the Pater.

Was its trick actually just the Pater's narcolepsy acting up?